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  1. #1
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Default A Rant and a Plea...:)

    Rant:

    Dove tailing the "Bigger Raid Groups" thread, I wanted to say that I am disappointed.

    I joined this server because I wanted a active community for my friend who had just joined and this server had a very active LFM consistently.

    Now, on any of the upper level content, if your not a cleric (which thankfully she is), or a Strength Based, it seems you will never get the "raid" groups.....

    It is disheartening that this server, on the top end, seems to be ONLY for 2 or 3 classes and no sense of community at large is desired.

    This weekend, I counted 5 Dragon raids, and for S&G's I asked to join as a Ranger, and a Bard, and both times was told "No, your not the right class" or "this will only be a X Man run, you can join if you do not want loot."

    I literally have 3 people on a DO NOT GROUP WITH list because of the rude nature of their response back to me. Not that they will care one way or the other, they have their "leet" little posse, and would never need what I can offer anyway..

    This server REALLY seems like you have two choices: Buy into the whole Loot is EVERYTHING mode and/or you HAVE to be Guilded.

    This leads to the PLEA:

    We have been in one guild in our time here, and they were very nice folks. But even in guilds it seems that their is a click to deal with. More so for my friend than me, it bothered her that she was spoken too consistently only when they needed a healer. And to be fair, some of it can be explained away: In a Quest, etc. But not all.

    We have been approached by several very fine guilds proposing membership. But I do not like Guild hopping. It is counter productive to say the least.

    We would be looking for a mature guild, who embraces members equally where loot and most everything is secondary to the friendships that could/are forged.

    I am nothing special. I share what I can, when I can....but the true gem is my friend. She is a class act, selfless, and truly one of the better folks I have ever met, in game and out. Unfortunately for anyone who may be interested in her, we come as a team..

    All in all, I have come to the conclusion that to consistently be able to see the upper side of the game, we have to get in with a Guild of like minded folks. The PuG scene, and the "leet" attitude of some (not all I understand), as well as the Loot is Everything crowd, dictates we adapt in as much as we can, or move on.

    So, thanks for reading the Novel. And sorry for its length..

    In game I am mainly Daviot the Bard or Raynwalker the Ranger.
    Last edited by Shadamear; 03-26-2007 at 07:36 AM.
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  2. #2
    Community Member Wallbreaker's Avatar
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    Hello Shade (and mysterious uber-friend ). I've been playing DDO since November of last year and I've just now found a guild that suites me fine. It's small and homely, we don't have a ton of members but everyone I've had the pleasure to meet has been great. I got to run with the guild leader and we started to post PM's back and forth. I liked her and her fellow guildies personality and playstyle and we hit it off right there. I asked to join and bam, met another awesome guildie who was on. We grouped up to finish VON 2 (something our current group couldn't seem to do) and went on to have a go at VON 3. (Maybe the worst VON 3 run I've ever had... but with the right people it was perhaps the best actual run I've ever experienced and hey we finished it so who cares.)

    I hear your plight though. Recently several people on the Reidra server have been creating tension and strife for people (many people by there own accounts) and I will never run with these people again. Sure their experienced and have good toons... but there rude, talk WAY, WAY too much and have an ego bigger then Velahs. I myself play a bard, which I now frequent more often then my WF fighter and some people just don't appreciate us (ok ok, MOST people don't appreciate us) and its something we have to cope with. I love my bard to death, she's fun to play and all my friends have come to appreciate what I bring to the table (basically everything).

    I am at a loss as to why its hard to get into raid partys, I've never had a problem when I've asked to join (a bard and a cleric asking to join hand in hand is better then christmas morning) a raid party but it sounds like you'd had some horrible luck when it comes to finding cool people to group with. Rangers have horrible stigma cause people consider them a 'gimp' class which proves peoples ignorrance.

    Unfortunately you'll never get away from the 'leet' posses with there little clicks or those of us who love to loot. Playing the quests is fun but treasure dominates the world of MMO's. But look me up anytime, my toons names are on my sig. below. I'm on every morning during the weekday and normally sometime during the weekend. (Normally I'm on Kelafein.) I hope everything turns out good for your friend and you. It takes awhile to make a network of people that are... desirable, but its worth it in the end.

    P.S. 3 people on your DO NOT GROUP WITH LIST? LMAO, wow. You've got a long way to go before you catch up with me. Take the good, squelch the bad and leave the rest. See ya on Reidra.
    "Si vis pacem para bellum."

    Happy member of the Gold Dragon Society

    Wallbreaker, WF, 8th lvl Ftr, 2nd lvl Barb, 2nd lvl Rngr
    Kelafein, Drow, 12th lvl Brd
    Barthic, Dwarf, 8th lvl Ftr (32 pnt)
    Marlaine, Human, 5th lvl Clr (32 pnt)
    Wallbreakere Mk II, WF, 2nd lvl Ftr, 1st lvl Rngr (32 pnt)

    http://www.giantitp.com (The Order of the Stick and Erfworld webcomic)

  3. #3
    Community Member Hakushi's Avatar
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    I know what you mean by clerics and str people

    My main character is a rogue, I also have a ranger, a bard and a wizard, all lvl 12. I mostly group with guildies, but I also pug. For raids, we regularly do guild raids. I sometimes join pugs in dragon and mostly pugs in tempest. Being in a guild sure helps a lot.
    The Ashen, Riedra (now Khyber) ~ Raika halfling rog20 ~ Carolanne human brd20 ~ Coriza drow wiz20 ~ Alexandra elf rgr20 ~ Samara human ftr20 ~ Zaretta human clr20 ~ Katina elf brb20 ~ Carelle human pal20 ~ Nathalya halfling mnk20 ~ Rosanna elf fvs20 ~ Venusia halfling ftr20 ~ Kristina human sor20 ~ Nausikaa halfling rog13 ~ Carietta halfling rog1/rgr9/mnk1

  4. #4
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Thanks for the words. And as for only three......Now now, I said they made it due to their responses to my inquiries concerning the raid groups.. I did not, however, number my Squelch list....

    And truth be told, only one of them did I ask as my Bard. And the response I got back, while a Negative due to "loot", did not land that leader on my list.....It was my Ranger that was the one they all hated.

    I guess I should put it out there....one of those folks on the list sent me a tell later asking if I would help them do the queen, I said how do you do the loot on that one? They replied that it was already determined based on what drops who got it....

    Honestly? There are good folks on this server. I even ran HIPS with a couple of your guildies. Decent folks. In fact, two of them didn't talk to Baudry and had to do it over...If I didn;t lose internet while waiting to fill the party again, I would of helped them again.

    Good travels..
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  5. #5
    Founder Vestario's Avatar
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    Hey, try looking up members of Order of the Scarlet Leaf. We are a mature group that more times than not go into raids with a totally unbalanced party. We also try to do silly things. (an example is one of our officers is try to set-up a only coal and fists in kobald assualt just for fun.)

    however after saying this, in most guilds you will come across people that of-course want the perfect balanced team...blah I say.

    When we do raids and we are all guildies we try to make sure that the raid loot goes to those that don't have any, or need before greed.

    Anyways look us up, we can be found at osl.guildportal.com.

    And if you have run with us, and we have ****ed you off....Sorry.
    Crates and Barrels are the ultimate evil.

  6. #6
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    Shadamear,

    Good luck on your journey, whatever it is, and wherever it takes you.
    Last edited by Eudimio; 03-29-2007 at 03:45 PM.

  7. #7
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vestario View Post
    And if you have run with us, and we have ****ed you off....Sorry.
    LOL..

    I have seen you folks around, I may of grouped with you all before, I hold no bad memories at all, so, Sorry back at you for not being ****ed..
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  8. #8
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudimio View Post
    Let me get this straight. You have a ranger and a bard. And you bring a cleric with you? And you can't get in a raid group?
    She has only one of her Clerics(she has 3) Dragon Ready. One group wanted her, but not me.. That I understand from a personal standpoint! LOL

    We try to play together as much as possible, so if there is not room for 2, we do not even ask. When we approach a group, we usually do so as a pair.

    I make no bones about it, I am fair, but people love Nyneve/Rwyaan and just kinda understand I am the bump on the log beside her..
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  9. #9

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    Just like to interject some possible other thoughts

    I know I have for example put up a LFM because we have a group that has all but X (for example a caster, or cleric, etc..) and then I get join request from players that AREN'T that class. Like when I'm looking for a caster and a fighter wants to join. Of course I deny them, the group doesn't need that class.

    So if someone puts up a LFM and they list the classes they want, why would you try to join them when your not that class? If they want to run a small raid group with a certain class mix, then that is what they want to do.

    Now also understand there is a shortage of Clerics. To which I primarily blame Turbine for, but also I blame the players just a little less. So of course a high level cleric is always needed. Just how it is unfortunately. My wife plays a cleric as her primary and she is getting tired of it because of course... she's a good cleric and most runs need clerics. So this is just something she has to understand, and maybe even say "No, I want to play my other character". If your guild won't accept that, then it IS time to find a new guild.

    Also having a main as a Ranger, and my 2nd as a Pally... I do understand the Ranger thing. Again, I'm lucky that for the most part my guild lets me bring which ever character I want. They will of course sometimes request my Pally when they are really short on tank power, but they also know my Ranger ain't a 1/2 bad tank

    So long story, sort... It's a game that different people like to play in different ways. Find a group/guild that likes to play the way you like to play and you will be much, MUCH more happy.
    http://www.dkforums.com - Look Mom it's a Guild forum, can I have one too?

  10. #10
    Community Member Judge's Avatar
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    Im sorry you are having such a difficult time, and that your experience on Riedra has been anything but superb. Mutli-Classers face the same dilema. Looking at the list, you may see a 4cleric/3wiz/5rogue(not likely, I know lol) or some other odd combo, and its hard to see where they can fit into the scheme of things.

    Please consider one thing that perhaps, may lighten your heart about the situation. As a leader, you have a certain amount of responsibility to the members in your party for success. Choosing the right members can be all the difference between a smooth fun run, or a grueling depletion of time and resources for all involved.

    That being said, I still do agree that my ranged fighter isnt very well welcomed till he shows his stuff, and we have many guildies with the same woes. Part of that is by dungeon design. Some are so hard, only very specific builds are effective. Hopefully, with enough positive encouragement, Turbine can find a way to keep the difficulty, and still broaden the player spectrum in regards to quest needs.

    A simple fix is one Ive been pushing for, Random Instances. Not all of them, but, the more the better. That would put it back to old school, where you get a nice build, out of whatever you got, cause you dont know what ya need. THEN it becomes a matter of learning yourself and your character, and your friends, and thats just plain wonderful.

    Many Guilds are driven by greed for the simple fact that many human beings on this planet are driven by greed. Clerics are brutally punished.(Needed, yet gimped and having to spend EVERY single dime on wands. Partly due to need, partly due to too many Rambo's runnig around.) There is some tweaking in order, but, there's hope yet.

    My guild, Legends of Twilight, has been around since the previews, and we keep things small, and simple. We recruit 'friends', not 'leet players'. We never invite those we do not know, and we don't encourage negativity. We have never had to kick anyone out, but we have had a few leave. They were more into high-end rading/loot running, than the joy of good comapny and playing the actual game. That's never been a problem with us, though, the ones who have left probably felt a littel embarassed,w e hold NO grudges whatsoever.

    I have to chalk our continued success up to picky recruitment, and the fact that we recruit people we feel we'd hang out with on a daily basis if they were close to home.

    Wow....only expected to make a small reply...lol
    Last edited by Judge; 03-26-2007 at 05:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Founder Lazarus's Avatar
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    just wanted to say that the defenders are always looking for mature & fun people to quest with, feel free to look any of us up if you have trouble finding a party. granted we usally group guild first but i can't count the number of times we have been standing around with a group of dwarven fighters looking for a cleric and or bard.
    by the way we are also the undwarven defenders with our non dwarven alts

    if you run with us and are looking to join the guild we really only require a couple of officers to vouch for you and that you run with us on at least a couple of quests (if you run with us and we succede you pretty much get vouched for). and don't worry about not fitting in class wise, we have run more than enough quests tank heavy, caster heavy or just odd ball combos, and everyone gets loot.
    Proud Officer of the Dwarven Defenders

    -Delard Duerthuer, Delicor Duerthuer, Ardak Duerthuer, Whurring Duerthuer, Urval Duerthuer, Lyali Droazoul

  12. #12
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonKiller View Post
    Just like to interject some possible other thoughts

    I know I have for example put up a LFM because we have a group that has all but X (for example a caster, or cleric, etc..) and then I get join request from players that AREN'T that class. Like when I'm looking for a caster and a fighter wants to join. Of course I deny them, the group doesn't need that class.

    So if someone puts up a LFM and they list the classes they want, why would you try to join them when your not that class? If they want to run a small raid group with a certain class mix, then that is what they want to do.
    The issue here was, and remains two fold to me: While they advertised for a Cleric, and had 3-6 ppl in the group already, I could hit the NOTED need of Wisdom that they needed. Next it is the whole loot is more important than you attitude.

    You ARE very correct that folks can play the game they like.....But in admitting that to you, I have the choice to not PLAY with folks who have those attitudes I find annoying or counter to how I want to play the game.

    I understand everyone, including myself, like nice loot. I prefer nice company and decent evenings after work far more though.. If you, or anyone else out there truly believes getting that belt fromt he dragon that you already got to sell it for plat is more important than meeting and playing with folks you may not know, then more power to you all.
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  13. #13
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Im sorry you are having such a difficult time, and that your experience on Riedra has been anything but superb. Mutli-Classers face the same dilema. Looking at the list, you may see a 4cleric/3wiz/5rogue(not likely, I know lol) or some other odd combo, and its hard to see where they can fit into the scheme of things.

    Please consider one thing that perhaps, may lighten your heart about the situation. As a leader, you have a certain amount of responsibility to the members in your party for success. Choosing the right members can be all the difference between a smooth fun run, or a grueling depletion of time and resources for all involved.
    Hey Judge.. I have grouped with you several times, and it was a pleasure. Again, I am Raynwalker the Ranger and Daviot the Bard...MAYBE you also no my 9 sorc, Fyrewalker.

    I understand what your saying. BUT, the issue I presented was in direct response tot he other thread about "bigger raid groups." I understand dynamics of a group for success. But being turned down because of group dynamics for success is completely different in my eyes than being turned down because you do not want the possibility of me rolling for loot. That is greed to the extreme, especially since MOST those types already have most if not all that raid could offer in loot...It is the epitome of gluttony, another human thought pattern alas...

    And I am not trying to say my stay on Reidra has been terrible. There are good folks on here. I will say though, it seems to be hard to find a "home" on here. To the point that me and my friend have preordered LoTR in the hopes of starting a game from scratch where people are all in the same boat at teh same time and will be more ready to accept someone for what they bring, not what treasure they MAY not get because they are around.

    Again, this is alot more negaive than I really intended. I have some VERY good stuff on this game, and I worked hard to get it....but I never turned someone away from a group because I was worried about the end looting. And I have still "got mine" per se.

    All in all, there are very nice folks on here. The guild we tried was chalk full of good folks. We just could not seem to get into that "inner circle". It really was almost.....I don't know....Like a Guild within a Guild? They are good folks, I am not upset with them in the least.....we just felt like outsiders....and I swear to you.....If Nyneve felt it, who almost everyone loves when they meet her, then there was a small rift there in our acceptance....or lack there of
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadamear View Post
    The issue here was, and remains two fold to me: While they advertised for a Cleric, and had 3-6 ppl in the group already, I could hit the NOTED need of Wisdom that they needed. Next it is the whole loot is more important than you attitude.

    You ARE very correct that folks can play the game they like.....But in admitting that to you, I have the choice to not PLAY with folks who have those attitudes I find annoying or counter to how I want to play the game.

    I understand everyone, including myself, like nice loot. I prefer nice company and decent evenings after work far more though.. If you, or anyone else out there truly believes getting that belt fromt he dragon that you already got to sell it for plat is more important than meeting and playing with folks you may not know, then more power to you all.
    While I'm not doubting you could have gotten the Wisdom rune they need, they might have needed more than that. Like say, a full time healer? Maybe some comet falls, DV's, etc.. Things that a Ranger simply can't do. So you need to think about what they are looking for and what they want. It's their run after all.

    As for the loot ho's... well nothing you can do about that. Some people are just like that. While I do in fact want items from Dragon, Queen, Titan, etc.. the loot is secondary and not why I play the game. But, some people are different. I can't try and won't try to change them.

    I also agree, that adding people who are rude to your /squelch list is a good idea. Too many good people on the server to deal with the others. Heck, who knows... maybe the person who was rude to you was a plat farmer
    http://www.dkforums.com - Look Mom it's a Guild forum, can I have one too?

  15. #15
    Community Member dns801's Avatar
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    only thing that i can come up with is make your own groups and allow whatever you like i still occasionally see full dragon runs and ffulltitan and dq runs. sure not everyone wants full groups i prefer small groups as ive stated before its less time consuming and better loot...sure loots not everything, having fun is, but i have plenty of fun with smaller groups as well and when you loot and actually get som ething its even more fun...just my 2 cents. i also play a ranger who "cannot" join other ppls dragon raids since both my wisdom and str are too low. solution is make your own small group or large whichever you prefer ppl will join. that seems to work for me.

  16. #16
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadamear View Post
    Rant:

    Dove tailing the "Bigger Raid Groups" thread, I wanted to say that I am disappointed.

    I joined this server because I wanted a active community for my friend who had just joined and this server had a very active LFM consistently.

    Now, on any of the upper level content, if your not a cleric (which thankfully she is), or a Strength Based, it seems you will never get the "raid" groups.....

    It is disheartening that this server, on the top end, seems to be ONLY for 2 or 3 classes and no sense of community at large is desired.

    This weekend, I counted 5 Dragon raids, and for S&G's I asked to join as a Ranger, and a Bard, and both times was told "No, your not the right class" or "this will only be a X Man run, you can join if you do not want loot."

    I literally have 3 people on a DO NOT GROUP WITH list because of the rude nature of their response back to me. Not that they will care one way or the other, they have their "leet" little posse, and would never need what I can offer anyway..

    This server REALLY seems like you have two choices: Buy into the whole Loot is EVERYTHING mode and/or you HAVE to be Guilded.

    This leads to the PLEA:

    We have been in one guild in our time here, and they were very nice folks. But even in guilds it seems that their is a click to deal with. More so for my friend than me, it bothered her that she was spoken too consistently only when they needed a healer. And to be fair, some of it can be explained away: In a Quest, etc. But not all.

    We have been approached by several very fine guilds proposing membership. But I do not like Guild hopping. It is counter productive to say the least.

    We would be looking for a mature guild, who embraces members equally where loot and most everything is secondary to the friendships that could/are forged.

    I am nothing special. I share what I can, when I can....but the true gem is my friend. She is a class act, selfless, and truly one of the better folks I have ever met, in game and out. Unfortunately for anyone who may be interested in her, we come as a team..

    All in all, I have come to the conclusion that to consistently be able to see the upper side of the game, we have to get in with a Guild of like minded folks. The PuG scene, and the "leet" attitude of some (not all I understand), as well as the Loot is Everything crowd, dictates we adapt in as much as we can, or move on.

    So, thanks for reading the Novel. And sorry for its length..

    In game I am mainly Daviot the Bard or Raynwalker the Ranger.


    Yeah I hear you and I have grouped with you I wish you luck maybe we should start trying to form our own raiding group, I know I can work with you because I have.


    I am Kasu rogue/wiz uska cleric, or Auks rgr/fighter all 3 are raid capeable and Kasu and auks are dragon ready, Uska is Titian and queen ready.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  17. #17
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Just a note to all following this thread the OP is a excellent player and great to have in a group we ran in the Vons I think it was without a cleric and he raised several of us using scrolls(wish I hadnt been broke and could have gave him pp for those) his bard would be of more use as a healer or whatever then some clerics I have ran with. To my Guild leader if you see this you should try to recruit this guy and his friend.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  18. #18
    Community Member Wallbreaker's Avatar
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    I concur with Uska. Not because I've grouped with the OP... but because I've grouped with Auks, and he's one of the most enjoyable players out there.
    "Si vis pacem para bellum."

    Happy member of the Gold Dragon Society

    Wallbreaker, WF, 8th lvl Ftr, 2nd lvl Barb, 2nd lvl Rngr
    Kelafein, Drow, 12th lvl Brd
    Barthic, Dwarf, 8th lvl Ftr (32 pnt)
    Marlaine, Human, 5th lvl Clr (32 pnt)
    Wallbreakere Mk II, WF, 2nd lvl Ftr, 1st lvl Rngr (32 pnt)

    http://www.giantitp.com (The Order of the Stick and Erfworld webcomic)

  19. #19
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dns801 View Post
    only thing that i can come up with is make your own groups and allow whatever you like i still occasionally see full dragon runs and ffulltitan and dq runs. sure not everyone wants full groups i prefer small groups as ive stated before its less time consuming and better loot...sure loots not everything, having fun is, but i have plenty of fun with smaller groups as well and when you loot and actually get som ething its even more fun...just my 2 cents. i also play a ranger who "cannot" join other ppls dragon raids since both my wisdom and str are too low. solution is make your own small group or large whichever you prefer ppl will join. that seems to work for me.
    I do make my own groups most the time. My issue is I hate "leading" raids.. I get so paranoid that I may be sounding commanding or something idiotic like that.

    Again....I think something is being lost in translation here, so I will try to clarify:

    I was riding the coat tails of another thread called "Bigger Raid Groups!" or something like that. And the fact that the vast majority of the server seems to think smaller is better because I want the loot, it is hurting some players like myself and my friend.

    When it is all said and done....we either deal with it or move on....like anyone else. If the game is not fun, do not play, right?

    Well, right now, the game is not all that fun for me, but she finds enjoyment, so I am trying to make the most of it.

    But again....I am just saying that the patterns of this community may be counter what me and her may need to be able to break into.
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

  20. #20
    Community Member Shadamear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska d'Orien View Post
    Yeah I hear you and I have grouped with you I wish you luck maybe we should start trying to form our own raiding group, I know I can work with you because I have.


    I am Kasu rogue/wiz uska cleric, or Auks rgr/fighter all 3 are raid capeable and Kasu and auks are dragon ready, Uska is Titian and queen ready.
    Yes, Kasu I remember well....an for good reasons..

    Maybe the by-product (which I intended) to to develop a small network of like minded people to what I am saying, and then we can see where it goes for me and my friend in DDO.
    “In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.”- Mark Twain

    Turbines Favorite Quote? :
    “Carpe per diem - seize the check.” - Robin Williams

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