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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

    This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    I've done the math. Wood Elf 13 Rogue/6 Ranger/1 Monk in Shiradi is the optimal build.





    Even an 18 Ranger/2 Monk using HW T5/capstone beats out 20 Ranger DWS T5/capstone.

    6 levels of ranger nets 13 FE damage, without including the epic twist. That provides plenty of customization for the other 14 levels. Considering all of the feats you get with 6 Ranger, you want to take it for most bow builds just for that.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasHunter View Post
    I probably will try it at some point, but not immediately like I had thought. Probably just not my play style and that’s okay. Here’s my quick opinion:

    Harper- first UET so kind of experimental. I could never really think of a way to use tier 5 and certainly not the capstone.

    Vistani- made me want to try and play daggers. This is now my favorite toon!

    Falconry- this had me extremely excited, but I’m not good enough to play a more defensive/CC type tree. I do utilize low tiers when possible!

    Inquisitive- how could I not try some weird and strange new use for crossbows? I’ve made many different kinds and find it really fun for a ranged toon. Way more fun than my current pure Ranger bow user.

    Illusionist- this was really different for me, but I think it is pretty cool. I don’t think the Shadowblade spells scale enough at cap, but it was fun in heroics. Here again I get some interesting use on various toons.

    Horizon Walker- I was hoping to feel inspired. I had hopes for some wacky FvS bow user, but it doesn’t seem strong enough? Like I said, I’ll try it at some point and hope I am wrong!

    Thanks!
    Taleisin
    Agreed vistani and inquisitive are pretty solid bottom to top hence why people play them and use the t5s and capstones.

    Falconry and Illusionist are mainly splash trees due to the T5s not being strong enough thus no one uses their capstones.

    Harper needs a full rework as it was the first of its kind and needs to go the way of the dodo.

    Horizon walker seem to be straddling the line between vistani/inquisitive levels of power and falconry/illusionist. A small niche of players may like it currently but its going to need a bit more to get there.

    Same boat as you despite my ranger having all those free bow feats I play him as an inquisitive right now because that play style is just better than the current incarnation of bow combat sadly. Its silly how every active ability is now strictly better with dual shooter or a repeater. The recent changes to double shot were a huge kick in the pants to bows and throwers.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Optimal Stuff
    You must play in a static group with solid CC. No stay frosty or leg shot. Does haste boost actually make a noticeable difference? I've tried it before on a bow and I just don't see the appeal.

  4. #64
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    Does haste boost actually make a noticeable difference? I've tried it before on a bow and I just don't see the appeal.
    Yes, I don't get the attack speed boost, either. The appeal of the power boost is obvious, but not the speed boost.
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  5. #65
    Community Member Sylveny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    It did. It also got a significant buff applied on use.
    Hi Steelstar, could we get an aswear if the final build misty step is gonna stay the way it is now or it's actually going to be 12 seconds cooldown

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    Not gonna lie, the capstone for this relying on having ranger levels to be effective is a big downgrade in feel, even if it isn't worse in power (for Rangers).

    This is a universal tree, and so the capstone should stay universal, and not be quite as reliant on being X class to be useful.
    100% this. This is a universal bow tree, not a ranger tree.

    There are some interesting things in there like Scatter shot and Misty step, but I honestly don't understand the current design at all.

    1) This tree is nothing like the HW PRC in D&D, which is a defensive mobility tree, the opposite of a siege tank tree. For example, this is the ultimate ability of HW in D&D: "When you use the Attack action, you can teleport up to 10 feet before each attack to an unoccupied space you can see". Additionally it gets Ethereal Step and a teleport spell on top of the Misty Step and Haste (minor in DDO) it gets here. Where does it say you stand still in this tree: http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/ranger:horizon-walker .

    2) It also doesn't make sense from a DDO perspective as Rangers already have a single target bow tree in DWS. This even gets the same main benefit - Improved AF. As it stands, this is basically another ranger DWS tree with capstone Favored Enemy damage instead of front-loaded Sneak Attack. That seems like a very niche market for what could have been a fun new bow play style. As most bow builds were already picking up 6 Ranger for the feats and DWS, I'm honestly not sure if this tree will change anything gameplay-wise. Imagine how fun this tree could have been if it had mobility and focused on close-range damage (e.g. scatter shot) instead of just another static sniper tree.

    Which market segment is this tree supposed to appeal to really? Those that want a slight variation of DWS Rangers?
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 07-15-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    You must play in a static group with solid CC. No stay frosty or leg shot. Does haste boost actually make a noticeable difference? I've tried it before on a bow and I just don't see the appeal.
    The build is for optimal DPS against orange/red/purple mobs, just like the U49 bow build guide I posted. Trash doesn't last long enough to optimize builds for it.

    The gearset has Tendon Slice to slow mobs. But you shouldn't have aggro anyway, because the melee engaged the mobs before you start shooting.

    Yes, Haste Boost adds additional projectiles. Go to the Marketplace and buy stacks of arrows. Measure the number of arrows shot in 20 seconds with and without Haste Boost. HB is just a bonus anyway. You go 11 VKF for 5% dshot, which people incorrectly undervalue especially with the gear stat squish.
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  8. #68
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylveny View Post
    Hi Steelstar, could we get an aswear if the final build misty step is gonna stay the way it is now or it's actually going to be 12 seconds cooldown
    I thought Steelstar's answer was pretty clear. Am I missing something?


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylveny View Post
    Heya, just so I'm reading this right, misty step cooldown went from 3 seconds to 12 seconds?

    but it was the most fun part of the first preview.
    It did. It also got a significant buff applied on use.
    Last edited by Arkat; 07-15-2021 at 11:42 AM.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    100% this. This is a universal bow tree, not a ranger tree.
    Horizon Walker T5+capstone works great for 14 levels of whatever class you want. For a variety of reasons, you want 6 Ranger in any bow build. Just like you want 6 Ranger in any thrower build. Without 6 Ranger, you're going to be feat starved.
    Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi | 55 million RXP

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylveny View Post
    Hi Steelstar, could we get an aswear if the final build misty step is gonna stay the way it is now or it's actually going to be 12 seconds cooldown
    12 second cooldown, as in the tooltip and the notes.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Horizon Walker T5+capstone works great for 14 levels of whatever class you want. For a variety of reasons, you want 6 Ranger in any bow build. Just like you want 6 Ranger in any thrower build. Without 6 Ranger, you're going to be feat starved.
    How is this different from DWS though? Paying fow HW buys you a few perks and full BAB but playstyle is almost identical.

  12. #72
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Interesting: so you think this AP split will be more powerful than, say, T5 DWS + HW capstone? Or at least dropping Assassin for Killer?
    Retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    How is this different from DWS though? Paying fow HW buys you a few perks and full BAB but playstyle is almost identical.
    Bow playstyle doesn't change between DWS and HW.

    DWS capstone requires you to be 20 Ranger, which is the pre-U50 meta for the optimal bow build. With 6 Ranger, you still invest in DWS for 3 SA dice, +3 FE dmg, +2 dmg under 50%, and Sniper Shot. You just don't invest in T4 DWS, because the bulk of your AP is better spent in HW.
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  14. #74
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    Several comments speak to the capstone only being beneficial to rangers, however my level 30 ranger saw a significant loss in damage switching from Deep Woods Sniper to Horizon Walker, even against Marked Targets. So while it may be more beneficial to Rangers, it would be hard to make the switch if you are a Ranger.

    This tree needs about 20-30 additional ranged power to be spark joy.

    Suggestion for capstone - While using Archers Focus you gain the following: +2 Maximum Manyshot charges, +20 Ranged Power, +10 Doubleshot, +2 to all Ability Scores

    This keeps the goal of single target damage in tact while also boosting overall damage throughout the dungeon. Marked Target will be fun against bosses/Dooms, but that's a fairly small fraction of most dungeons.
    Last edited by amessi1; 07-15-2021 at 12:48 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Interesting: so you think this AP split will be more powerful than, say, T5 DWS + HW capstone? Or at least dropping Assassin for Killer?
    I'm guessing the force procs set HW T5 over DWS for single target dps. 30d10 force damage (ignores mrr) scaling 200% on RP, which with 25 stacks of AF is a lot. Every 6 sec with Corner, then on every Manyshot crit too

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by amessi1 View Post
    Several comments speak to the capstone only being beneficial to rangers, however my level 30 ranger saw a significant loss in damage switching from Deep Woods Sniper to Horizon Walker, even against Marked Targets. So while it may be more beneficial to Rangers, it would be hard to make the switch if you are a Ranger.

    This tree needs about 20-30 additional ranged power to be spark joy.

    Suggestion for capstone - While using Archers Focus you gain the following: +2 Maximum Manyshot charges, +20 Ranged Power, +10 Doubleshot, +2 to all Ability Scores

    This keeps the goal of single target damage in tact while also boosting overall damage throughout the dungeon. Marked Target will be fun against bosses/Dooms, but that's a fairly small fraction of most dungeons.
    I think the biggest need in the tree is double shot. While I don't think the favored mark mechanic is bad, an alternative might be 1% dshot per stack of AF - keep it tied to the stance mechanic, makes ita little more dynamic than just flat passive stats

  17. #77
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'm guessing the force procs set HW T5 over DWS for single target dps. 30d10 force damage (ignores mrr) scaling 200% on RP, which with 25 stacks of AF is a lot. Every 6 sec with Corner, then on every Manyshot crit too
    Okay cool: since I was one of the folks who complained that tier-5 HW Mk I was a lot weaker than T5 DWS, I'll be pleasantly surprised if T5 HW Mk II is now a viable alternative.
    Retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.

  18. #78
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    The first time I read the capstone I read it as "favored enemies are always considered marked" now that would be cool as the marking mechanic is something most people think is clunky. I'd like it to be a t3 or t4 effect though, not in the capstone.

  19. #79
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The build is for optimal DPS against orange/red/purple mobs, just like the U49 bow build guide I posted. Trash doesn't last long enough to optimize builds for it.

    The gearset has Tendon Slice to slow mobs. But you shouldn't have aggro anyway, because the melee engaged the mobs before you start shooting.

    Yes, Haste Boost adds additional projectiles. Go to the Marketplace and buy stacks of arrows. Measure the number of arrows shot in 20 seconds with and without Haste Boost. HB is just a bonus anyway. You go 11 VKF for 5% dshot, which people incorrectly undervalue especially with the gear stat squish.
    Do you mind sharing your gear setup (PM if necessary)?

    Come hell or high water I'll be TRing my main into HW, and I'd like it to remain relevant in R10s and push raids.
    Astreya the Unturning

    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    as the marking mechanic is something most people think is clunky.
    We cut the time to mark things by 2/3 in the preview (relative to Preview 1), and so far most players I've spoken to who have actually used it in this preview have been fairly positive on it. We don't have plans to remove the Marking from this tree.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

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