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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    [+2 damage per Favored Enemy feat you have (including this capstone)] x [the number of Favored enemy feats you have that apply to this enemy type].

    If you have Favored Enemy: Elemental and this capstone, and the target is a Marked Elemental, you get full Favored enemy damage twice.
    The you HAVE to go back to the old capstone. This is useless for a non ranger. PLZ dont change it

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    [+2 damage per Favored Enemy feat you have (including this capstone)] x [the number of Favored enemy feats you have that apply to this enemy type].

    If you have Favored Enemy: Elemental and this capstone, and the target is a Marked Elemental, you get full Favored enemy damage twice.
    Steel, confirm this: does that mean that on Live currently a Ranger having both Chaotic and Evil outsiders as Favored Enemies gets double that bonus against Demons?

    I thought FE bonuses didn't stack, and this made me question this Mark effect doubling it.
    Enthusiasm enthusiast enthusiast.

  3. #43
    Community Member Sylveny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylveny View Post
    Heya, just so I'm reading this right, misty step cooldown went from 3 seconds to 12 seconds?

    but it was the most fun part of the first preview.
    So, finally got around to testing on lamannia today.

    Misty step cooldown remains at 3 seconds, the ranged power only aplies every 12 seconds, but the incorporeality is always aplied (for the 1 second step), don't know if this was intended or not, so a clarification would be nice, my personal opnion is that it should remain 3 seconds

    opening shot and take the opening could be fused into one single ability TBH, the damage it gets on full health marked targets it's still not high enough, (doing something around 1 and 1/2 of the damage of a single auto attack at level 30)

    Also, corner the quary says it has a 12 second cooldown, but it definitely has less (around 6 seconds)

    The haste SLA is good, but I would just put a permanent effect on it, since fairly early the duration supass the cooldown, and it would be one less button to press (this tree already has a lot)

    The protection from evil and good feels thematic and a nice touch, good one

    The range on the mark shoulde've been shooting range, and should've been free action like mark of the hunted

    As a feedback I would like to suggest two things

    1) to get something for killing the marked target, maybe more ranged power or doubleshot (like killer from deepwood stalker)

    2) the capstone level 20 ability, should give, when killing and when getting a vorpal on marked targets, a charge of many/scattershot back, this would make it really good and competitive with others capstones (the increase in manyshot charges doesn't seem to be working to anyone)

    I see that this is a difficult situation for you devs, at the bow pass everyone was claiming that upcoming universal tree would be the only way to make bows feel good, and that it would be OP, now that the tree is here, it's not OP and everyone is complaining too, I honestly don't know if there will be a point of balance, if this point can't be reached, please remember that the first priority is always fun mechanics, numbers can be adjusted latter.

  4. #44
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    this seems like a stealth/invisible hit and run build... talking dragon marked elven illusionist arch mage for invis SLA rogue wizard splash
    Mark one target assassinate attempt on another disappear again from misty step to put some distance Stealth to new station...ad nauseum
    The SA and Mark in conjuction would be crazy DPS
    Last edited by Enderoc; 07-15-2021 at 12:23 AM.
    Main Characters: Korkoch the Cruel, Sylhuetta Sidhe...Thelanis

  5. #45
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

    This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    Can you put the favored enemy bonus in tier 5, and move IAF to the capstone? Then builds that will benefit most from it can choose to take it, and folks who don't like it can just skip it. You can also put the 10 MP back in the capstone, IAF gives the 10 DS (though still 10 DS down from the original, which is probably for the best), and the capstone will be much more attractive.
    Astreya the Unturning

    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  6. #46
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    As it goes, Opening uses some new scripting that is pretty forgiving; as long as you hit the enemy with Opening within 1 second of them leaving 100% hitpoints (even if they're at 1% remaining at the time you hit them), it'll still deal the extra damage.
    One of the most annoying player behaviors in the game is ranged builds shooting a pack of mobs before the tank or melees arrive and establish aggro. It turns into the squishy ranged player kiting for his life while the melees all chase the mobs. I swear I hear "Yakety Sax" every time it happens.

    I love the sniper flavor of Opening Shot and Take the Opening, but they encourage bad player behavior. Perhaps Take the Opening could work if the target is at 100% HP and/or when sneak attacking? I think that fits the flavor, but it's still useful in groups. If that's too powerful, just leave it as is. I like that it encourages tactical game play, I just don't like that it creates a race between the HW and everyone else to see who can hit the mobs first.

    Aside: Ideally, the HW would strategically target a caster or ranged mob with Take the Opening while the melees plow into the middle of the mobs swinging away. Unfortunately, DDOs targeting makes that a giant PITA. Tab ends up swapping you back and forth between the two closest mobs; and with all of the movement, it's nearly impossible to click a mob at the back (there's always something in the way or it's moving around while you're moving around).
    Astreya the Unturning

    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Steel, confirm this: does that mean that on Live currently a Ranger having both Chaotic and Evil outsiders as Favored Enemies gets double that bonus against Demons?

    I thought FE bonuses didn't stack, and this made me question this Mark effect doubling it.
    Yeah that was my first thought too - if something has two flags for Favored typing, do you get FE bonuses for each? I thought an enemy was either favored or not, I didn't think it could be double favored.

    Typed undead would be another potentially big pool of double typed mobs too

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

    This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    I think that defending the new capstone by arguing that hardly anyone will take anyway it is odd.

    I think many (nearly all) of these new changes have made HW more attractive but pretty much tying a universal tree's capstone to one class is not one of them.

    If hardly anyone is going to take it anyway, why not make it superawesomesauce - if nobody takes it anyway, it won't affect game balance?
    He left the name, at which the world grew pale.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

    This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    I think what people are saying is if the cap is pretty much locked to ranger then it should be a ranger tree not universal. It's like changing Inquisitive capstone to only work if you have at least 5-10 levels of artificer, or make Vistani MP scale with rogue levels.

    You're asking good questions though. On a pure ranger, I'm not sure I'd take this core over Deepwood or AA, as is in this preview. Previous implementation could probably compete with AA but haven't tested. But most importantly it offered a nice option for non-rangers (e.g. divine archers or monks), whereas now it is kinda meh.

    As for other universal trees, Vistani capstone can be quite useful in certain builds, I know I've taken it on my FvS vistani because it's much better than what Warsoul has to offer for a melee divine. Inquisitives pretty much go all-in inquisitive. There are some Illusionist builds that go all in as well.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  10. #50
    Community Member ShifterThePirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    if you stand still as an archer you die. you can't face tank mobs and you can't dodge other archers that way. how is that fun? The only time you can do this is if you have a tank. Since few tanks run quests as they can't kill anything, this is likely a raid or high reaper only build option. I leveled my tank as dps and then LR into a tank build when done...
    I agree with this. A good archer never stands still... You have to keep running to kite or to dodge ranged attacks/spells that get thrown at you. With the aggro mechanic in DDO it's just not doable to stand still and survive. The only situation Archer Focus is useful is for Raid Bosses where the tank gets the aggro and the enemy has a huge amount of HP.
    Last edited by ShifterThePirate; 07-15-2021 at 03:59 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Protection from Evil and Good: Rank 1: You permanently gain +2 deflection bonus to Armor Class and a +2 resistance bonus to saves versus attacks from Evil creatures. Rank 2: You permanently gain this for Good creatures as well. Rank 3 (2AP): You are also warded from magical mental control and compulsions from both Evil and Good creatures.
    I may be confused here but the way its worded suggests that only tier 3 costs 2AP and implies that the others are a different cost of 1AP?
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  12. #52
    Community Member Elisser's Avatar
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    - Only have 3 charges of Scattershot and Manyshot after capstone AP spent
    and saved - 41pts.

    - Had an underpowered (3rd life) Bardcher (Lvl12 - 6Rng, 4Brd, 2Rog) running heroics saltmarsh. Using single target dps focus vs mobs whilst solo is not fun.Standing still using single target dps is less fun when getting beaten down by said mob. Seems more ideal for boss fights with a party.

    - In the dojo the dps dmg appeared decent-ish...?

    Will try to test out at Lvl30 if I get time.

    Thanks.

  13. #53

    Default This is an Universal Tree correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.
    Design Goal: Make a capstone that almost nobody will take?

    Truthfully the only UT capstone that I use is the Inquisitive capstone and that is always a multiclass build.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    Yes, I would like to say it is worth making the 41 AP investment in this tree for a multiclass bow user. That said the current capstone does not fit that bill for me and the 40 AP before it is close but not quite there yet. Thank you for not requiring tumbling. Still not a fan of having to "mark" targets. RP seems low.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:
    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    No


    I get it that walking the line between making the (Universal) tree worth enough to get players to spend money to acquire it and making it OP so you have to nerf it after launch and then listen to all the players say that your plan all along was to sell an OP line knowing you would nerf it after sales dropped, well that is a difficult line to negotiate.
    Shapshap, League of Extraordinary Ham, Sarlona and a bunch of alts that all have names begining with Sha or Sho. Of course Shapshap could be the alt and one of the others the main, it just depends on what day it is.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Steel, confirm this: does that mean that on Live currently a Ranger having both Chaotic and Evil outsiders as Favored Enemies gets double that bonus against Demons?

    I thought FE bonuses didn't stack, and this made me question this Mark effect doubling it.
    Yes, those stack to double the bonus. I'm not sure they were originally meant to, but they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elisser View Post
    - Only have 3 charges of Scattershot and Manyshot after capstone AP spent
    Found a bug there after the Lamannia build went out, should be fixed for Live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastrd View Post
    Can you put the favored enemy bonus in tier 5, and move IAF to the capstone? Then builds that will benefit most from it can choose to take it, and folks who don't like it can just skip it. You can also put the 10 MP back in the capstone, IAF gives the 10 DS (though still 10 DS down from the original, which is probably for the best), and the capstone will be much more attractive.
    No, the only reason we included the Favored Enemy: Marked Target at all is that the positioning in the capstone keeps its power in check. T5 doesn't cut it here, and would do problematic things to the build meta if positioned there. If we remove it from the capstone (as people seem to feel we should), it'll get cut outright. Conversely, IAF's positioning is a counterweight against other T5s, and the tree wouldn't hold up against other trees in late Heroics without it. The two aren't good counterweights for each other in the things that they boost.
    Last edited by Steelstar; 07-15-2021 at 07:12 AM.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Regarding the capstone:

    Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

    This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

    Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
    Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?
    Let's take a look at Deepwood Stalker vs Horizon Walker at T5/Capstone:

    DWS capstone - (ironically called Horizon Shot) +4 Dex, +3 SA die, perma-PBS, +20 ranged/melee power, +20 POS SP
    HW capstone - +2 to all ability scores, +2 MS charges, favored enemy marked target

    For rangers, DWS blows away HW capstone. Rangers will already have enough favored enemies and the massive DPS boosts coming from DWS capstone are countered only by a few extra HPs from HW. So if you're a ranger looking at this I don't see any scenario where you'd take the HW capstone.

    How do their T5 abilities match up?

    DWS - Extra favored enemy (blah), Heavy Draw (+5 dmg, +1 crit mult), Strikes like Lightning (20% doubleshot), Head Shot (5W auto crit attack), Improved Archers Focus (10 ranged, AF stacking)

    HW - Feywild Attunement (+1 crit range and mult), Banish the Quarry (1d10 force/level plus banish check), Misty Step (tumble related ranged power, Power Shot (enhances MS/Scattershot), Improved Archers focus

    So both trees get Improved Archer's focus. Misty Step, in actual ingame, seems like it's not going to be used for the reasons outlined by many - a movement tumble mechanic conflicts directly with Archer's focus. So you'll either but moving and not using the archer's focus benefits or trying to move. Unless tumble is given easier key mapping, I don't see how I'd be able to benefit from the ranged power increases detailed here. Feywild Attunement is better than Heavy Draw. Since Extra favored enemy is a throwaway ability, in the aggregate are Banish the Quarry and Power Shot better than Strikes like Lighting and Head Shot, or at least enough of a player option on whether they want to consider them? Head Shot is a finishing move and SlL gives over an increased attack bonus. Power Shot tied to MS/Scattershot induces a different playstyle than the Head Shot finish them moment so I feel that's good design and Banish the Quarry is a cool ability.

    I think you could make an argument, especially with Feywild Attunement, and if you either did something to make tumbling easier or addressed the move/archers focus thing in Misty Step that players would consider the T5 in HW over DWS. However, the DWS capstone is so superior over HW I think that ends up breaking DWS every time for a ranger. But this is a universal tree, not a ranger tree. In that regard, in many ways I think HW succeeds at least on T5. How does HW T5 pair up now with KoTC, War Soul or Kensai (the three trees I see working well with it)? If rangers aren't going to take the capstone would a Paladin, FVS or Fighter?

    In conclusion, I believe the capstone of HW still needs to be beefed up and tumbling should be made easier if Misty Step is going to work like this and there are no current plans to change movement restrictions with Archer's Focus.


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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krumm View Post
    On live server, in a group, I find it hard to use any skill that I need to have a set target first.
    Everything dies fast while there seem to be lag to shots fired and shots actually hitting target.
    If I try to target a mob and then use a skill, more than likely, my target is already dead along with half of the group of mob.
    When using a ranged toon, I am forced me to use my skills without selecting a target.
    Target selecting (while it sounds great in theory) don't work too well atm.

    While it might be great for 20 ranger within a subset of favored enemies, it's not so great for any other class.
    Is Horizon Walker designed to synergize exclusively with rangers? Because favored enemy mechanics just reinforce this.
    Also while +12 damage to weapon might sound good, I always found taking 12 fighter levels with kensai to be much superior since you can get +13 damage (+4 from feats, +9 from enhancements) to all mobs. Limiting damage to certain mobs is the downside. IMO if you are going to add damage to specific type of mobs, the return on investment needs to be greater than what it is now.
    Why dont you run ahead with misty step to the next instance and stealth into position while the others are cleaning up behind you?
    Thats what snipers do... move ahead assess the situation target the biggest threat
    Get away from the lynch mob everyone in the same instance mentality.
    When your party comes up behind you fire the shot....attack normally a few times as you head to the following instance
    Think outside the box. You could Zerg with this with a group if you utilize it in the way it makes sense...or you could be more tactical when pushing CR...utilizing bluff and stealth.
    No one is telling you to play Barbarians sidekick...leave that to the mechanic.
    Last edited by Enderoc; 07-15-2021 at 08:29 AM.
    Main Characters: Korkoch the Cruel, Sylhuetta Sidhe...Thelanis

  17. #57
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    [+2 damage per Favored Enemy feat you have (including this capstone)] x [the number of Favored enemy feats you have that apply to this enemy type].

    If you have Favored Enemy: Elemental and this capstone, and the target is a Marked Elemental, you get full Favored enemy damage twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Let's take a look at Deepwood Stalker vs Horizon Walker at T5/Capstone:

    DWS capstone - (ironically called Horizon Shot) +4 Dex, +3 SA die, perma-PBS, +20 ranged/melee power, +20 POS SP
    HW capstone - +2 to all ability scores, +2 MS charges, favored enemy marked target

    For rangers, DWS blows away HW capstone. Rangers will already have enough favored enemies and the massive DPS boosts coming from DWS capstone are countered only by a few extra HPs from HW. So if you're a ranger looking at this I don't see any scenario where you'd take the HW capstone.
    Let's assume said Ranger has 2 non-Ranger Favored Enemy feats (like Harper T1 + Aasimar Scourge). Ranger also grants 5x Favored Enemy feats.

    Against a valid target (which is most, given 7 FE feats), DWS capstone split is getting +14 base damage from FE feats.
    With HW capstone you'd be getting (7+1)x2x2 = 32 base damage from FE feats against marked targets.

    Unless I'm understanding something wrong, HW capstone is giving +18 base damage to Marked Targets, which is a pretty sizable chunk? Also allows you to multiclass freely, like 18/1/1 grabbing Divine Will +10% MS or something.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  18. #58
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    Suggestions and observations:

    Opening shot should apply the marked target status as part of the attack.

    Dimension door needs a much smaller cooldown.

    Protection from Good and evil seems vastly overpriced.

    Walker's guidance is way too situational. Characters fall into two camps. Those who have high reflex saves and evasion. And those who do not have high reflex saves and do not have evasion. it's a pointless ability.

    Scattershot has a bad habit of targetting unhittable enemies such as enemies behind corners.

    Feywild attunement didn't change BAB when I tested it.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Let's assume said Ranger has 2 non-Ranger Favored Enemy feats (like Harper T1 + Aasimar Scourge). Ranger also grants 5x Favored Enemy feats.

    Against a valid target (which is most, given 7 FE feats), DWS capstone split is getting +14 base damage from FE feats.
    With HW capstone you'd be getting (7+1)x2x2 = 32 base damage from FE feats against marked targets.
    And +18 damage vs every target, too, worth saying - even ones that aren't normally favorable - since the gameplay means you'll pretty much be marking every target. Not to mention you can triple up against reapers with evil outsider+ lawful outsider+ marked...and I see hw as being a reaper sniper in group play

    With 25 stacks of AF that + damage is worth a lot more than 20 RP. Dshot is sorely lacking, but RP is easy to come by
    Last edited by droid327; 07-15-2021 at 09:58 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member ThomasHunter's Avatar
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    Default Hmmmm….

    I probably will try it at some point, but not immediately like I had thought. Probably just not my play style and that’s okay. Here’s my quick opinion:

    Harper- first UET so kind of experimental. I could never really think of a way to use tier 5 and certainly not the capstone.

    Vistani- made me want to try and play daggers. This is now my favorite toon!

    Falconry- this had me extremely excited, but I’m not good enough to play a more defensive/CC type tree. I do utilize low tiers when possible!

    Inquisitive- how could I not try some weird and strange new use for crossbows? I’ve made many different kinds and find it really fun for a ranged toon. Way more fun than my current pure Ranger bow user.

    Illusionist- this was really different for me, but I think it is pretty cool. I don’t think the Shadowblade spells scale enough at cap, but it was fun in heroics. Here again I get some interesting use on various toons.

    Horizon Walker- I was hoping to feel inspired. I had hopes for some wacky FvS bow user, but it doesn’t seem strong enough? Like I said, I’ll try it at some point and hope I am wrong!

    Thanks!
    Taleisin

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