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  1. #1
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    Default U51 = another massive sorc nerf

    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?
    I don't even understand what you are talking about. They have only previewed half the new EDs yet, and only one primary caster destiny: Primal Avatar. If you pick that, you would get Mass Frog at T5. You can also get access to more heals, and evasion (if you actually want that). You can also get better DCs overall with the new system (or at least that was their intention).

    Spell crit damage and % were super rare in the old system also. Since other caster-oriented EDs aren't out yet, it's difficult to know how powerful casters will be when they can put points in up to three EDs. I would at least wait to see them. I will say that many of the spell-based spenders in the current EDs looked weak for being epic and charged attacks. Due to gear tetris, anybody wanting a spell-based attack will be a caster and have access to better spells already from L14.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 06-20-2021 at 10:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

    In terms of spell critical chance/damage, the devs (Lynnabel specifically, if I remember), has said that the Epic Spell Power feats are being adjusted to have either chance or damage (I can't remember which), and they also mentioned putting more spellpower in the trees themselves?

    They've also talked about scaling mobs down, so the difference in DCs doesn't matter because the mobs are losing a similar amount to their saves.

    And if you REALLY need mass frog, it'll scale with your CHA now (I think), so you should be happy you don't need to do a WIS swap or gear WIS to make it work (or just use circle of death or weird (new mass PK) or wail or other instakills like prismatic?)

  4. #4
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.
    I don't think many (if any) sorcs maxed out their charisma in draconic, there were too many other good choices.

    You should easily gain on DCs. With the new system epic resilience is removed which reduces targets saves by 6 which is effectively a boost of 6 DC. You get +3 universal DC in every casting core and +3 universal DC in every tier 5. Then you will be able to take a minimum of +3 DC to schools of your choice - say evocation and necromancy or evocation and enchantment. That alone will make your DCs for your primary and secondary school better than you had with draconic - even if you did max out charisma in draconic.

    With the old system you had the following bonuses if you maxed out charisma in DI which nobody did

    Evocation
    3 - 6 ranks of charisma
    2 - Precise Evocation
    3 - Evocation Twist from Magister
    3 - Draconic Cores

    11 Total

    Necromancy or Enchantment
    3 - 6 ranks of charisma

    With the new system

    Evocation
    6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
    3 - Universal DC in cores
    3 - Universal DC in tier 5
    3 - Evocation DC in a tier 3
    4 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

    19 Total

    Necromancy or Enchantment
    6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
    3 - Universal DC in cores
    3 - Universal DC in tier 5
    3 - Necromancy or Enchantment DC in a tier 3
    2 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

    17 Total

    You are definitely losing DPS on your heroic spells if you were a fire sorc in draconic with scion of fire and empyrean magic twisted. It's unknown if something in Draconic will make up for this - the only thing that has been dropped about draconic is that something there will buff ruin and greater ruin with an equal amount of elemental damage (which of course gets buffed with more vulnerability).

    The new system moves most casters to more of a generalist with DC and DPS build choices homogenized in the trees and legendary feats. It appears DC casters will be obsolete as there will be very little DC difference between a build that maxes DC and maxes DPS. Arcane warrior builds are getting a significant boost with the universal DC boost + removal of epic resilience + hybrid trees making those builds much more viable and much better at end game as they will have the same DC potential and still get martial dps support from hybrid trees.

    It will take quite a bit of testing but the best single-target dps sorc will likely be an arcane warrior. An arcane warrior in a tier 5 martial tree will still have better DCs than a typical sorc does today as long as they go tier 3 in one casting or hybrid tree.

    Casting AOE dps at end game will largely depend on what is provided in the new trees - which is unknown. As a point of reference the aoe dps of the dc warlock build in my sig is fine for soloing R6 and fine in R10 groups and I don't run in draconic, don't take scion of fire and don't twist empyrean magic, but 2 big parts of my aoe rotation are energy burst (draconic twist) and arcane tempest (magister) and it's unknown if I will lose one or both of those. The main reason I prefer dc warlock over nuking sorc is that the utility spells with a higher dc help me clear a dungeon faster compared to sorc which has terrible secondary dcs in draconic or poor survivability. It's really more of a playstyle preference than anything else - I like the mcgyver style of warlock over blasting with a smaller spell selection.

    Sorc DPS has always been much better even in Magister but magister boxes you into one school. With the upcoming changes, I will have to test, but I suspect sorc will be significantly superior to warlock at clearing dungeons as dps is decidedly better and with a huge gain to all my secondary spells I should be able to match the utility of my existing warlock build with better functioning support spells.

    Much will depend on the tier 5s of the unknown trees. None of the tier 5s of the known caster trees are compelling to me on a pure caster because there is not enough dps support to make up for arcane tempest and energy burst which are the 2 biggest parts of my aoe rotation.
    Last edited by slarden; 06-20-2021 at 02:45 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post

    You should easily gain on DCs. With the new system epic resilience is removed which reduces targets saves by 6 which is effectively a boost of 6 DC.
    The +6 reduction is only for mobs with 100% hp. So the +6 boost is important but situational and often the boost will be smaller.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    We've not even seen the Draconic ED yet...
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  7. #7
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    The +6 reduction is only for mobs with 100% hp. So the +6 boost is important but situational and often the boost will be smaller.
    Yes I understand that, but when trying to land cc, necromancy and illusion spells I usually lead with that when the mob is at full hp. So I wouldn't call it situational - at least the way I play. I would be getting that bonus almost all the time. And as far as reflex saves once the mob is helpless they are getting massive reduction to saves - so being able to land spells that generate helplessness also helps with dps and dc on damage due to the massive reduction in reflex saves.

    It's rare I would beat down a mob and then cast finger of death or hold. Usually by the time mobs are beaten down a bunch are dead already and the threat has been reduced. So yes I am comfortable with saying this is boosting my effective dc by 6.
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  8. #8
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    on EE/LE/LR try to hit something on a caster in Sharn, Ravenloft, or the Feywild - any of the new content without min/maxed DCS and watch the mobs make evasion reflex saving throws and take 0 damage.

    you have to spam spells at them, dump your mana, and that's in the first room of the quest. Good luck to caster dps wanting to solo. SSG's answer is 'we sell spell point potions, did you know?'

    On a warlock its worse because while you're not being hit over the head to purchase spell point potions, you are being force to kite monsters for hours to make your way to a boss that will take you 45 minutes to kill because you have awful dps.


    The only good news so far is that in update 50 there is a change to address misfiring spells / spells that do nothing - lets hope

  9. #9
    Community Member awar1234's Avatar
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    Default Good!!

    More nerfs the better!!!!! I hope lots more power is lost!!!! I hope R1 is failed 80% of the time by pugs!!!
    And R10 should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE EVEN FOR THE BEST GEARED AND BEST LEAD GRUOPS.
    Get rid of reaper trees
    More more more nerfs!!!!! To everyone and everything.
    Last edited by awar1234; 06-20-2021 at 03:08 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Yes I understand that, but when trying to land cc, necromancy and illusion spells I usually lead with that when the mob is at full hp. So I wouldn't call it situational - at least the way I play. I would be getting that bonus almost all the time. And as far as reflex saves once the mob is helpless they are getting massive reduction to saves - so being able to land spells that generate helplessness also helps with dps and dc on damage due to the massive reduction in reflex saves.

    It's rare I would beat down a mob and then cast finger of death or hold. Usually by the time mobs are beaten down a bunch are dead already and the threat has been reduced. So yes I am comfortable with saying this is boosting my effective dc by 6.
    For me it is situational many times. Especially with the alts, who do not have many past lives and therefore less DC, my strategy is to launch a simple attack that minimally damages the mob and with that their saves are much more reasonable for both CC and instantkill. Again, if all they do is remove epic resilence, this is a nerf for the alts. It is also a nerf for assassins and other melees.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  11. #11
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    We've not even seen the Draconic ED yet...
    Exactly. Other than liking the chance to apply cocoon on heals in Primal Avatar & the nifty AoE cocoon + fire damage ability(albeit not working right), I didn't have much to say as a divine caster this time around. I really liked some of the new flavor/abilities they added but how things will be in the end for my heals/DPS/DC's will have to wait for the next preview when they add the missing trees; could be horrible but I expect it'll be fine with some fun new toys like primal brought in.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?
    As it currently exists, Draconic gives +9 DC to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to the other. Under the newly announced paradigm, what you get is even better: You get +3 to all DC's in tier 5, +3 to all DC's from the cores, and +3 to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation from a tier 3. For a total of +9 to either Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to every other school. This is in addition to whatever you'd get from your other ED's. In addition, they're going to be removing Epic and Legendary Resilience from mobs, which drops their saves even lower.

  13. #13
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    Most of the "wait a minute, this is not good for my build" kinda feeling in this thread comes from dev talk in one of the live streams.

    And yeah, what was said there basically boiled down to "see this hammer sorcs?"

  14. #14
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    For me it is situational many times. Especially with the alts, who do not have many past lives and therefore less DC, my strategy is to launch a simple attack that minimally damages the mob and with that their saves are much more reasonable for both CC and instantkill. Again, if all they do is remove epic resilence, this is a nerf for the alts. It is also a nerf for assassins and other melees.
    For a blaster even without epic resilience your effective dcs are up across the board. DPS is down. Most of the arcane trees are unknown so it's hard to assess how casters will be impacted at this point.

    I think people will need to mix up their strategies a bit. At least for me the way to push skulls on a caster is by expanding your toolkit as much as possible. It's hard to push skulls blasting through a dungeon- you are much more impacted by minor dps nerfs with this approach as well.

    The change to epic reslience is not a nerf for assassins or melees because it has no impact on them at all.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    For a blaster even without epic resilience your effective dcs are up across the board. DPS is down. Most of the arcane trees are unknown so it's hard to assess how casters will be impacted at this point.

    I think people will need to mix up their strategies a bit. At least for me the way to push skulls on a caster is by expanding your toolkit as much as possible. It's hard to push skulls blasting through a dungeon- you are much more impacted by minor dps nerfs with this approach as well.

    The change to epic reslience is not a nerf for assassins or melees because it has no impact on them at all.
    precisely, they lose stats like everyone else, but if the only thing devs do with the npcs is remove epic resilence, it is a nerf for their abilities.

    At the moment I do not speak with the development of the arcanes because we have not seen the arcane trees. I can only say that I don't like the level-gated system, that I like the builder-carges system even less, and that the fact that the paths in primal avatar are exclusive seems like a slap in the face to the concept of a druid that can change seasons. They have been designing in this direction for a while and it is really annoying that they end up consolidating themselves in the wrong way. Since it is the basic design of the EDs that repels me, I do not expect a result that brings me fun,
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  16. #16
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    precisely, they lose stats like everyone else, but if the only thing devs do with the npcs is remove epic resilence, it is a nerf for their abilities.

    At the moment I do not speak with the development of the arcanes because we have not seen the arcane trees. I can only say that I don't like the level-gated system, that I like the builder-carges system even less, and that the fact that the paths in primal avatar are exclusive seems like a slap in the face to the concept of a druid that can change seasons. They have been designing in this direction for a while and it is really annoying that they end up consolidating themselves in the wrong way. Since it is the basic design of the EDs that repels me, I do not expect a result that brings me fun,
    There are a few arcane/hybrid trees available and the philosophy on DC for all trees was clearly stated. Every caster tree will have +3 universal in cores, +3 universal in tier 5 and +3 to various schools multiselector in tier 3. This will not stack with other destinies but when when combined with epic resilience is more than what was available in magister previously.

    Almost all casters should end up with higher relative dcs except a few high DC magister builds - max dc illusionist, conjuration and evocation builds due to the ability to twist additional stacking dc from draconic on top of the 12 points in magister and 2.5 from stats. That is compared to 9 in the caster tree + 6 from epic resilience - except you don't need to be in magister to get that.

    For me the key is not DC which is clearly a win for almost everyone. What aoe damage will I have to replace arcane tempest and energy burst twist which I currently have on my magister builds? Will there be single-target dps improvements so casters can fill dps roles in raids? We can't comment on that until we see the next preview with more caster trees.
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  17. #17
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?
    Yeah, but this change isn't aimed at ONLY sorcs and I doubt it affects sorcs worse than any other class.

    It affects everyone. I'm sure all classes can point to some high tier item and cry nerf.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tebaco View Post
    I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

    So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

    So what we sorcs lose?

    1.) DC
    There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

    2.) Mass frog feat
    This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

    3.) Spell critical chance

    4.) Spell critical damage


    Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

    So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?
    some of draconic too come has been mentioned,
    you need to watch some chats with the devs that
    are out.

    your friend sil

  19. #19
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Mary View Post
    on EE/LE/LR try to hit something on a caster in Sharn, Ravenloft, or the Feywild - any of the new content without min/maxed DCS and watch the mobs make evasion reflex saving throws and take 0 damage.

    you have to spam spells at them, dump your mana, and that's in the first room of the quest. Good luck to caster dps wanting to solo. SSG's answer is 'we sell spell point potions, did you know?'

    On a warlock its worse because while you're not being hit over the head to purchase spell point potions, you are being force to kite monsters for hours to make your way to a boss that will take you 45 minutes to kill because you have awful dps.


    The only good news so far is that in update 50 there is a change to address misfiring spells / spells that do nothing - lets hope
    I play an AOE dps sorc in Shiradi and can solo Fey R3s fairly well. Definitely not R4s though.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Yeah, but this change isn't aimed at ONLY sorcs and I doubt it affects sorcs worse than any other class.

    It affects everyone. I'm sure all classes can point to some high tier item and cry nerf.
    As U50 changes introduced it clear that sorcs and other casters are nerfed much more than other classes. It looks like DDO will die soon.

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