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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    If you want to speed through your life casual legendary in epic levels is definitely a lot faster than slayers solo...you want to put money on it?
    Of course not...
    Again just stop pls with the casual it may work for u with 50s i assume ....hows that lfm look again .........dont recall ever seeing a casual lfm and i aint no dawg

  2. #22
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    Its only funny because your type always come out before big updates and end up looking like chicken headed parnoid freakazoids wigging out....
    Just freaking stop

    OR AFTER THE UPDATE WE CAN POINT AND LAUGH SO WHATS UP DOG?
    What will you be pointing and laughing at? The even more widened character power gap?

    A portion of (and likely the best of) the many awesome new builds will not be attainable by those who do not have the EPL investment, due to not having the EDP unlocked to spend on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    People don't play alts?, look at my signature then
    I don't know if this is sad, but your alts have more PLs than my main...

  4. #24
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    If you want to speed through your life casual legendary in epic levels is definitely a lot faster than slayers solo...you want to put money on it?
    Of course not...
    I would.

    If p(L)ayers wallet warrior slayer counts with potions, and XP with potions...

    Once you do so the slayer option becomes quicker. This is PRECISELY what they are going for here. Incentivizing the previously unattractive EPL grind, by making it more "required" to participate in these new awesome build reindeer games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    And exactly how is anyone getting gutted being able to take cores from 3 trees ? You miss out on twists...and instead get more. If that makes you gimp it's no fault of the update.
    It's not about the epic destinies. It's about why they are doing the changes: to enable future level cap increases and power creep. Level cap increases are hostile to alts, but even more important is that they are creeping to the LOTRO model which is every major update wiped out and made unplayable all the old content. Not only were you forced to buy all the new content, but all your alts became instantly unplayable until you took them through the new content, one by one.

  6. #26
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrielwielder View Post
    It's not about the epic destinies. It's about why they are doing the changes: to enable future level cap increases and power creep. Level cap increases are hostile to alts, but even more important is that they are creeping to the LOTRO model which is every major update wiped out and made unplayable all the old content. Not only were you forced to buy all the new content, but all your alts became instantly unplayable until you took them through the new content, one by one.
    We currently have a ton of low legendary content. They could drop an update to make the cap 32 today and just off RL, Sharn, Fey, etc. one could level up without much issue. It seems like they're prepping us pretty hard for the future initial level change with all the content being released as 30+.

  7. #27
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gljosh View Post
    I don't know if this is sad, but your alts have more PLs than my main...
    Sorry
    Ozzgood 45, 48, 24, 39, 110. Ozzbad 41, 46, 19, 39, 90. Ozzugly 45, 48, 23, 39, 130. EvilOzz 40, 48, 12, 39, 116. Ozzistheworst 38, 38, 15, 6, 58. and Alts on Khyber
    Past Lives: Heroic, Epic, Iconic, Racial., Reaper Points,
    Started Playing DDO In February 2010 On Khyber and still here

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Well, devs. You have time to completely redesign the EDs in a way that no one has asked of you. A gigantic work that is going to have great opposition and that is going to bring you in return much less than what you expect, because although there are people who are going to like the new system, when there are so many people opposing it, the fruits never come to be satisfactory.
    I'd ask you for some data about this but clearly that is unavailable to anyone but SSG. Other than the current rants going on the forums by the same groups who are always up in arms telling us all the sky is falling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Isn't it time you started to think something about the situation of the alts? Alts players have been in continuous frustration with the state of our alts for years, and all you do is make it even more difficult for alts with each update. What if you spend some of your time solving this problem that you have created? I assure you that there are more people who will appreciate their alts improving than people expecting a complete overhaul of EDs. A little attention to this problem, please.

    And no, the new EDs don't help our alts at all. The only thing I see is that it will be even more difficult to get EPLs with them and that they will suffer a considerable penalty for not having as many points to invest in the EDs as our mains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What will you be pointing and laughing at? The even more widened character power gap?

    A portion of (and likely the best of) the many awesome new builds will not be attainable by those who do not have the EPL investment, due to not having the EDP unlocked to spend on them.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ardcore-league



    Where's that gap at with three Hardcore seasons going on four in the books proves that first life alts are doing just fine.

    DDO is just like WoW run to cap gear up and enjoy, no past lives whatsoever needed, required, or mandatory. The reincarnation system is simply a way for SSG to allow players to sink cash into DDO on things that are obviously not necessary.

    I'll be waiting for the upcoming posts in the next few months about all the OP builds that need to be nerfed into the dirt because it is unfair once again and new players and alts just can't keep up.

    Hardcore is the single best thing SSG ever did. You can rant P2W all you want this was done without a death on a server and can certainly be done on a normal server with as many resurrections as you need.

    Next Hardcore season should be just like all the rest disproving the need for any past lives just like the first four have. Proving you don't need anything more than skill, luck, solid build, good tactics, and gear to achieve anything your set your sights on.

    You can argue it all you want. Disprove Hardcore......................

  9. #29
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaipan View Post
    The fact the *you* do play alts doesn't mean that most players do. We were talking about the general population of ddo right now.
    Which is YOU I presume?, There are so many players on Khyber that DO have alts as I see it all the time, Join a raid and then someone will switch a toon as maybe need more dps or a healer or a caster. Sitting on your Guild ship WAITING for a LFM will not get the job done, put on your BIG BOY PANTS and go solo it
    Ozzgood 45, 48, 24, 39, 110. Ozzbad 41, 46, 19, 39, 90. Ozzugly 45, 48, 23, 39, 130. EvilOzz 40, 48, 12, 39, 116. Ozzistheworst 38, 38, 15, 6, 58. and Alts on Khyber
    Past Lives: Heroic, Epic, Iconic, Racial., Reaper Points,
    Started Playing DDO In February 2010 On Khyber and still here

  10. #30
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    Which is YOU I presume?, There are so many players on Khyber that DO have alts as I see it all the time, Join a raid and then someone will switch a toon as maybe need more dps or a healer or a caster. Sitting on your Guild ship WAITING for a LFM will not get the job done, put on your BIG BOY PANTS and go solo it
    And many of those players with alts in Khyber that we both know are not very satisfied with the situation of the alts at the moment. As for yourself, you cannot compare yourself to the average of the players. The vast majority of players do not have the time that you have to dedicate to the game.

    As for SoulDustar's no-sense, it's hardly worth answering him. I know perfectly well that you can play an alt without past lives. I have 14 toons, one of which has all the past lives and a lot of reaper points, but I also have many toons with only a few past lives. So I also know exactly what the difference is in power between the two types ... and in versatility. Having more enhancements opens up many possibilities for builds that a first life does not have. And to deny this is to lie.

    Now, I'm not interested in what you and anyone else say. I have only given a touch of attention to SSG. And it is more than true that they will gain more doing something that would make a portion of the population happy and would not negatively impact the rest, such as helping the alts, than wasting time changing the EDs in a way that will inevitably anger to many people.

    And also, it is time for the alts-lovers to receive some attention. To those who do not believe that the alts deserve attention, great, that does not negatively impact you. Stop bugging us who do feel like they're murdering our alts.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  11. #31
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I agree with you completely, but the issue has been raised long enough and by enough people that if the devs were going to respond they would have done so by now or at least thrown a bone.

    With that said, the best way to alt for quite some time has been to have multiple accounts so that you can earn past lifes and reaper points for characters at the same time, while still raiding one character at a time. The coupon last summer helped people late to the party get an alt account set up much faster.

    The one possible bit of optimism on alts would be the upcoming changes to the reaper system - specifically the leadership idea that sev floated around. If I understand that correctly someone can bring an alt to a raid and that alt would at least partially benefit from someone else's reaper points.

    Beyond that none of the devs have shown any interest in the topic and all comments regarding the topic have been extremely negative towards the possibility of supporting alts better - specifically from Cordovan whenever the question comes up on a live stream.

    It's a nice thought - very small chance of any improvement ever happening beyond possibly the leadership reaper system which is intended to help new players but would help alts accidently.
    I know perfectly well that for a long time the only viable way to have alts is multi-boxing, but I am not going to pay for multiple accounts just because SSG is so greedy or so stupid in its handling of the game that it does not contemplate that players want to have alts in the same account. Neither I, nor most people, should say.

    The only thing SSG is achieving with these tactics is losing customers. I can't say how many of my friends have left the game in frustration, there are too many. I have gone from being a loyal customer with a subscription and frequent spending to a customer who refuses to spend a penny more on this game. And honestly, at the rate we are going, I would say that soon I will be another player who totally abandons the game.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  12. #32
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulDustar View Post
    I'd ask you for some data about this but clearly that is unavailable to anyone but SSG. Other than the current rants going on the forums by the same groups who are always up in arms telling us all the sky is falling.






    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ardcore-league



    Where's that gap at with three Hardcore seasons going on four in the books proves that first life alts are doing just fine.

    DDO is just like WoW run to cap gear up and enjoy, no past lives whatsoever needed, required, or mandatory. The reincarnation system is simply a way for SSG to allow players to sink cash into DDO on things that are obviously not necessary.

    I'll be waiting for the upcoming posts in the next few months about all the OP builds that need to be nerfed into the dirt because it is unfair once again and new players and alts just can't keep up.

    Hardcore is the single best thing SSG ever did. You can rant P2W all you want this was done without a death on a server and can certainly be done on a normal server with as many resurrections as you need.

    Next Hardcore season should be just like all the rest disproving the need for any past lives just like the first four have. Proving you don't need anything more than skill, luck, solid build, good tactics, and gear to achieve anything your set your sights on.

    You can argue it all you want. Disprove Hardcore......................
    Hardcore proves my point exactly. People have more fun playing together without the very wide power gap that exists on the main servers. No reason to widen the gap further.

    The hardcore server is not a rebuttal of my position. It supports my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulDustar View Post
    I'll be waiting for the upcoming posts in the next few months about all the OP builds that need to be nerfed into the dirt because it is unfair once again and new players and alts just can't keep up.
    Many of which will require maxed out EDPs, which will require grinding ETRs. Unless you can show us how you are getting to t5 in one destiny and t4 in two others without that grind, while having enough points to take all the abilities desired in those tiers. One way to "nerf" those builds would be to not allow them to exist in the first place, by not having an EDP farm as a currency of progress for EDs - mathematically disallowing t5+t4+t4 builds or whatever would be accomplish-able with maxed out EDP.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-18-2021 at 04:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidfox View Post
    We currently have a ton of low legendary content. They could drop an update to make the cap 32 today and just off RL, Sharn, Fey, etc. one could level up without much issue. It seems like they're prepping us pretty hard for the future initial level change with all the content being released as 30+.
    Leveling up is not the point of alts. We want our alts to be able to run end game content. Do you really want a system where every major update all your toons are essentially naked because the numbers on the gear are several orders of magnitude higher than the last major update, and the only way to get your gear back is to run a small number of mindnumbing quests over and over hundreds of times to collect currency to buy back the same gear you had before the update? And if you manage to to that, then you have to repeat the process for each one of your alts? That is where this is headed. The LOTROization of DDO.

  14. #34
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    I have returned from a long unintentional hiatus...and can honestly say all the doom and gloomers have ALWAYS been here to laugh at after the fact
    Hope you have a good laugh each time. Every time the doom and gloomers start complaining about sweeping changes, there are considerably less people on the servers than before. You obviously haven't been playing long enough to remember a time when the individual servers each had far more LFMs up at any given time than you ever see on HC now.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    Which is YOU I presume?
    lol... no? I do have some alts, I love alts as a concept and lovingly take care of them too. I know it may seem shocking to you, but it's possible to differentiate between one's own particular situation and the statistical majority.

  16. #36
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    In the new system, destiny spheres are gone. That negates the hassle of having to pick and chose which sphere to spend karma from in order to reincarnate; it also negates the need to then earn karma back in that sphere during your next life. If you're interested in earning epic past lives that is a much simpler system, one that allows players to always run in whatever destiny (or destiny build) they want. Not to mention you're no longer forced to go through the daisy chain of unlocking spheres/destinies.

    Your new character, at level 20, will also start with an immediate allotment of destiny points to spend - enough to unlock the first tier of each destiny's "mantle" effect. Right now a brand new character hits level 20 with nothing.

    Anyone taking a new character through the epic levelling process after U51 will have a much easier time levelling and earning past lives than they would before U51.

    As for a gap between a maxed character with all 48 epic past lives/tomes (M) and a brand new character (N): consider that post U51 your ability to unlock your destiny tree abilities will be severely limited by level gating. In the current system, M enters level 20 with a maxed destiny and 5 twist slots while N enters level 20 with absolutely nothing. Post U51, M will only be able to use the first core and the first two tiers of their destinies - the exact same limit N faces. Yes, M has more points to spend but they no longer enter level 20 with a massive power differential over a brand new character - no top tier abilities or cores like they have now. Your maxed characters and brand new characters are going to be on a much more even power level as they go through the epic levels because of the level gating.

    Also consider the relative contribution of past lives to destiny power. Both M and N will earn 40 destiny points once they reach level 30; both M and N will have 8 more destiny points from the initial unlock; for all of their past lives and tomes, M will have 11 more destiny points. So at level 30, M has 59 destiny points to spend and N has 48.

    A maxed out character with 59 destiny points at level 30 can have a tier 5/4/2 combo; a brand new character with 48 destiny points at level 30 can have a tier 5/3/2 build. That's it! That is the difference in destiny system build flexibility between a maxed character with 48 epic past lives and tomes and a brand new 1st life character at level 30.

    I have major issues with the level gating but it unquestionably contributes to a significant levelling of power between maxed out characters and brand new characters when considering destiny trees and the entire epic levelling process.

    I also have major issues bordering on disgust with specific details of some of the new proposed trees, but I can't see how anyone can come away after understanding the actual U51 destiny/point system itself and conclude it is anything but a net positive for leveling brand new characters/alts and an equalizer between low and high past lived characters.

  17. #37
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaipan View Post
    lol... no? I do have some alts, I love alts as a concept and lovingly take care of them too. I know it may seem shocking to you, but it's possible to differentiate between one's own particular situation and the statistical majority.
    And of course you have these statistics?, please feel free to share them
    Ozzgood 45, 48, 24, 39, 110. Ozzbad 41, 46, 19, 39, 90. Ozzugly 45, 48, 23, 39, 130. EvilOzz 40, 48, 12, 39, 116. Ozzistheworst 38, 38, 15, 6, 58. and Alts on Khyber
    Past Lives: Heroic, Epic, Iconic, Racial., Reaper Points,
    Started Playing DDO In February 2010 On Khyber and still here

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Well, devs. You have time to completely redesign the EDs in a way that no one has asked of you. A gigantic work that is going to have great opposition and that is going to bring you in return much less than what you expect, because although there are people who are going to like the new system, when there are so many people opposing it, the fruits never come to be satisfactory.

    Isn't it time you started to think something about the situation of the alts? Alts players have been in continuous frustration with the state of our alts for years, and all you do is make it even more difficult for alts with each update. What if you spend some of your time solving this problem that you have created? I assure you that there are more people who will appreciate their alts improving than people expecting a complete overhaul of EDs. A little attention to this problem, please.

    And no, the new EDs don't help our alts at all. The only thing I see is that it will be even more difficult to get EPLs with them and that they will suffer a considerable penalty for not having as many points to invest in the EDs as our mains.
    There's good parts and bad parts to the new ED paradigm. But I think its wrong to say its penalizing alts - I think its actually a lot more forgiving than the current ED system:

    - You dont need to unlock each tree on a fresh alt
    - You dont ever need to play in an off-destiny
    - You dont need to farm karma for EPLs
    - You get more points to spend overall than you do on Live (48 on a first life)
    - EPLs/Epic Comp wont make as much difference as they do right now
    - Some powerful attacks are frontloaded into T1/2s
    - You can frontload more MP/RP since you can spend in multiple core lines at L20
    - You access Destiny Feats sooner (though two of the big ones have been removed...)

    Now granted, gating T5s at L30 is pretty harsh for leveling in Epic, but that's true for both alts and mains.

    I'm not saying I'm defending the new system - I think its primary purpose is to facilitate level cap raise, which I'm very much against - but I think it is going to make it a little easier for alts to contribute more with less time invested.

  19. #39
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Hardcore proves my point exactly. People have more fun playing together without the very wide power gap that exists on the main servers. No reason to widen the gap further.

    The hardcore server is not a rebuttal of my position. It supports my position.



    Many of which will require maxed out EDPs, which will require grinding ETRs. Unless you can show us how you are getting to t5 in one destiny and t4 in two others without that grind, while having enough points to take all the abilities desired in those tiers. One way to "nerf" those builds would be to not allow them to exist in the first place, by not having an EDP farm as a currency of progress for EDs - mathematically disallowing t5+t4+t4 builds or whatever would be accomplish-able with maxed out EDP.


    actually it doesn't support you at all when it comes to hardcore. everyone is on the same level when they first start. when your toon dies whoops start over again or stop playing it. there is zero disparity between people. there is no i have all this gear and all these past lives. yet people still go to hardcore. everything about it gives cosmetics. so why do people do it? simply saying it supports your thing without actually giving proof of why does nothing.

    on live server there is a huge difference with people having gear/past lives and reaper points vs someone who does not. There will always be a gap. There is a gap vs someone new or a new toon with no epic destinies to those who have it full or epic past lives. they can switch to whatever when they want. new players/new characters can not currently. remember how many doom threads there were about update 49 yet people continue to play or any other. remember when menace of the underdark came out. dooom doom dooooom. yet people continue to play. of course there has been dips in population for many reasons not just one in particular.

    well some builds die? yes. will some get worse. yes. will some get better yes. But of course like any new system new builds are born. like it or hate it welcome to all mmos. builds die and new ones are born.

  20. #40
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistaMagic View Post
    Hum. If your forum join date is correct you started playing 1 year after me, my Signature shows the alts I do play and tr. I also have others that I have not played since the cap was 20/25/28 which at some point in time will also get replayed which are all on 1 account btw so I can not see where alts need love comes from
    My perspective comes from raiding with a large # and variety of players over the past year and alt discussions come up frequently in raids due to the need for so many roles to get filled. Based on your sig we have roughly the same amount of rxp, but we are also outliers and not representative of typical players in the game.

    If you look at the top 5% of players in terms of rxp you and I are likely there - not sure it's something to be proud of in the grand scheme of things, but it is what it is.

    My comments weren't talking about you or I, but about the vast majority of player population that can't make that type of progress. The game needs to work better for the 95% than it does currently and supporting alts better would help with that.
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