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Thread: U51 changes

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by atralyx View Post
    Agreed, these changes many good and mostly bad, the charge system is what deters me the most, the news of these upcoming changed kept me from buying points today....and logging in, i just have lost so much faith in this game. I'd rather see a feature freeze and bug fixes. I sure don't need more button combs to keep rack of and more **** filling the bars. I will hesitantly continue playing for now. But if the charge system goes through I'm quitting, my fallback game is gw2 which has programmers who actually make new content rather than toying with skills constantly and reskinning mobs with a new name calling it new content. DDO is and always will be my favorite game. But this is just sad....what do they do with all that money from players who spend on this massively money hungry game? There is some serious mismanagement somewhere within that company and I don't want to put all the blame on the devs, but we the players are powerless and in the dark here.
    what about Tomes of destiny we bought or get as an expansion bonus, we paid for- how is that transformed in the new system?
    What about Players who reincarnated epic already 12 times (epic completionist)- and why should a reincarnated toon only get the lower abilities and not the lvl29 he already earned through playing till lvl 30?

    Thanks
    Tarinia

  2. #122
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    there are a few things i don't like about these changes.

    1. Level 20-29 look like they'll be a pretty silly slog. As it stands right now, I'd almost certainly not play the game with these changes, or at best I'd only play heroic or stay at cap.

    2. I REALLY dislike the possible reason why this is being done. I don't care about major nerfs if the enemies are also majorly nerfed, but if SSG is taking power to sell it back to us, I'm done forever. It looks like you're doing this by the way.

    3. Meld into Darkness is a mandatory short term defensive buff. Just have it be a granted ability at 21. The incoming damage at times is pretty crazy in this game, and you don't always have an optimal balanced party when you play the game. This is an old laggy buggy game with a low population. Nerf it a bit if you have to, but the ability is necessary to play the game in many circumstances. You could even make it a reaper boost since Meld is really only ever needed in reaper mode.

    4. Melee has to have varied powerful CC. Melee should have the biggest payoff because they take the most risk. Don't make the same mistakes that pnp did in 3.5 until Book of the 9 Swords. DDO has done well so far, don't change it now. Make it better.


    other than this, i'm almost optimistic about the changes. that doesn't mean i have much desire to play the game though. i have even less desire to be supportive paying customer. that could change though if these four things are addressed. if you don't want my business, that's fine too. i've been ok not playing DDO, and will be ok continuing doing other things.

  3. #123
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Tentatively, I think these changes are going to be beneficial, but I do have some concerns:

    Lower epics have some content that seems to be balanced around having at least some epic destiny benefits. Because a lot of features are now locked behind higher levels, that could potentially result in an early epics difficulty spike, especially on Reaper difficulty. I don't know how bad that will actually be- a lot of that lower epic content isn't exactly the most difficult, and there are still some benefits available at low level.

    If I understand correctly, the ability to access multiple EDs simultaneously (up to three) could make for more options... but it also could just result in a new meta of "These are the three best EDs for this build, nothing else works nearly as well."

    By splitting across multiple trees, it may become more important to balance points, especially since we'll be starting at the bottom of each tree. I don't know if there are any point investment requirements for the higher tiers or just level restrictions (I've been traveling, so my read of the notes has been a bit less thorough than normal) but if we have to invest, say, 10 points in the bottom tiers of each ED that potentially means that points are worth a *lot* less than they were before since we'd now need to invest in three starting tiers of benefits. I think this is generally stronger than twisting, but it might lock some people out of their high tier abilities.

    Some trees seem to have frontloaded/backloaded abilities. Others seem to be much more situational (compare Grandmaster of Flowers vs. Legendary Dreadnaught for melee builds). Now that we're not locked into ED's to progress the star map, it's potentially not as big of a deal, but it's possibly going to do less to shake up the meta.

    Moving crowd control abilities from generic feats to ED specific enhancements might make some builds need to take certain trees to be optimal. I can't think of a single melee build that would not benefit from the new LD, since that's a pretty sustainable and reliable source of crowd control (especially with the removal of epic resistances), even if they're not normally in the martial sphere.

    That said, I'm excited for some things as well:

    This new system should be flexible going forward to add additional EDs, both potentially class based and maybeeeeeeee one day some universal ones too. We've waited a long time for new ones to match the new classes, and while there's no rush to get the new EDs out the door, it could really allow for some interesting diversification.

    No more karma means that epic leveling is so much simpler than it used to be, which is never a bad thing. It also potentially opens the way for a smoother ER system should 31+ be introduced, since without karma there's no need to have two separate experience bars. As long as any future ER doesn't require additional experience, then it's fine in my book (since more grind for past lives would be bad, in my opinion, but more levels is probably fine). Also, no more having to play an ED that doesn't work with your build because you need a particular sphere.

    More options for builds now that you can invest in multiple trees, and no more "This one twist is optimal so I'm going to need to take this one T4 enhancement from this ED even though it's nothing like the ED I actually want to use and I need to level that other ED first."

    Moving crowd control from generic feats to ED specific enhancements allows there to be more different options which can potentially stack with each other or rotate to allow more crowd control, especially with the removal of epic resistance.

    Perhaps, now that we have more structured level progression in epic, we can get a larger variety of content across epic levels? It seems like we've gotten a lot of legendary content, and while that's fine, some lower epic content might make grinding out ERs a little less tedious. I get that endgame is basically legendary content, but especially if the plans to increase the level cap ever return, then all that content will be more or less obsolete but we'd still have to grind 20-29 either way.

    I don't know how all the balance will play out- there's still a lot of EDs to be seen, and a lot of potential changes by the time the system goes live, but there's a lot of doom and gloom and I don't think this is necessarily a bad change, as long as it doesn't end up completely breaking balance in either direction. I do have concerns, but EDs have been a system that has not performed well for a long time, and seeing them get the changes that they need, while it is kind of like having a band-aid ripped off, is probably for the best as long as nothing catches fire.
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
    Reaper Experience Calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ewE/edit#gid=0 (out of date as of U42.4, needs testing for new values)

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    it's clear that this new system is going to give a lot more flexibility than we ever had before.
    You must have a set of alternative facts. It's very clear to me we'll have far less flexibility under this proposal.

  5. #125
    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    The level gating of epic destiny tiers is going to cause a lot of frustration. If they drop the XP/epic level needed so that getting to 30 is quicker would be one thing (all in anticipation of level cap increase of course). But slogging through 20-29 just to get level 30 and finally have the "epic moments" or best stuff will be painful.

    But I'll comment on Shadowdancer as well. Their thought process to make this a hybrid tree, while great in theory, is abysmal in reality. They've removed many better parts to then insert illusion parts and thus skimped on the rogue aspect of the tree. Also their order of placing things in the tree is not thought out well. They have a T5 that gives bonuses to reflex saves, etc and its very weak imo for a T5. This tree is all over the place without any true cohesion. Illusion and other arcane casting should be spread across 2 different destinies: Magus of the Eclipse and another. Shadowdancer should be a Rogue/Utility destiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachomammashouse View Post
    The devs got bamboozled by the forum warriors.

  6. #126
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Well no, you can't say that almost everyone believes this. I like the current system, and I know many people who believe that it does not need major changes just to polish parts of it. Many people enjoy having EDs ready at level 20 already and don't feel like they need to build them up level by level. Many people believe that the current system works well in general and that it is fun. So no, there are many of us who think that changing EDs to a level-limited tree system is a bad idea and not fun at all.
    +1

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    Gutted for someone with **** dodge, comparable if you a higher dodge build. I think that's the point, rewarding investment, not just 100% for nothing.
    From the Lam thread
    1: Meld is way too strong! This leads me to point 2.

    2: Meld is way too weak! Hey, hey, put down those pitchforks, let me explain!! It feels like we were right on the money on making Meld a defensive martial spender. In practice, you trade Charges for defensive ability, and with careful play, you can even keep it up 100% of the time at a moderate magnitude. That's rad, and I don't want to change it. The problem is that this tree is half Arcane - and Meld doesn't do anything for that.

    So, with that in mind, what if Meld had a lower dodge % per charge, but also took Arcane charges into account? Or what if you had two versions, one that only took Arcane and one that only took Martial? I think there's a lot of ways to slice this shadow, so to speak, so I'll be keeping a very close eye on further feedback.

    2b: Meld will also likely be multiselected with an offensive version, most likely an adjusted form of the old Pierce the Gloom active mixed with some offensive firepower. It will need to be strong to compete with the defensive capabilities of Meld, but there's a lot of good design space still open that makes me confident we can find something that fits this niche.

    Reading between the lines it looks like they are thinking of lowering the dodge before it even get close to live

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    Nope.

    You can't change a game so drastically. Just make a new game to implement all your weird ideas, meanwhile fix the problems already existing here like 'recovering from failed teleport', 'ladder bug' and I don't know, lag? Don't get me started on AI or hireling AI.
    That's what I don't understand. They are failing to fix any of the broken things... yet want to implement this new system. Never mind the fact that a lot of players spent YEARS cultivating their characters and for what.... for it all to change and be worse. I thought devs were supposed to make games better.. WOW did this and people HATED it.. and rightly so. Now here we go with DDO. The devs are not listening to us, who by the way PAY for their game. And they are just going to do it anyway. If this goes into effect.. I'm not sure I'll continue to pay for the game. I enjoy the game.. even though a lot of it is broken. But this.... this is ****.

  9. #129
    Community Member atralyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alizure View Post
    That's what I don't understand. They are failing to fix any of the broken things... yet want to implement this new system. Never mind the fact that a lot of players spent YEARS cultivating their characters and for what.... for it all to change and be worse. I thought devs were supposed to make games better.. WOW did this and people HATED it.. and rightly so. Now here we go with DDO. The devs are not listening to us, who by the way PAY for their game. And they are just going to do it anyway. If this goes into effect.. I'm not sure I'll continue to pay for the game. I enjoy the game.. even though a lot of it is broken. But this.... this is ****.
    The game first and foremost is about fun followed by and paired with fantasy and story....not some BS 1,2,3, release, watch for floaties keep track of the time and do it again and again....ugh!!!! that sounds more like some cheap mobile game and entirely breaks immersion. What the hell were they thinking with this????

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by atralyx View Post
    The game first and foremost is about fun followed by and paired with fantasy and story....not some BS 1,2,3, release, watch for floaties keep track of the time and do it again and again....ugh!!!! that sounds more like some cheap mobile game and entirely breaks immersion. What the hell were they thinking with this????
    DDO for me is about story... the emersion of the characters, plot twists, fantastic places etc. But if this charge system goes into effect... that's going to KILL it for me.

  11. #131
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alizure View Post
    DDO for me is about story... the emersion of the characters, plot twists, fantastic places etc. But if this charge system goes into effect... that's going to KILL it for me.
    I like ham sandwiches but if they change the way they make peanut butter I refuse to eat another ham sandwich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alizure View Post
    That's what I don't understand. They are failing to fix any of the broken things... yet want to implement this new system. Never mind the fact that a lot of players spent YEARS cultivating their characters and for what.... for it all to change and be worse. I thought devs were supposed to make games better.. WOW did this and people HATED it.. and rightly so. Now here we go with DDO. The devs are not listening to us, who by the way PAY for their game. And they are just going to do it anyway. If this goes into effect.. I'm not sure I'll continue to pay for the game. I enjoy the game.. even though a lot of it is broken. But this.... this is ****.
    They fix "stuff" all the time. I can't recall the last time I've ran into a game breaking bug. All games have minor bugs/glitches.

    I pay for the game as well and I want EDs to change
    Last edited by Karthunk; 06-19-2021 at 01:10 AM.

  12. #132
    Community Member Jaxtan's Avatar
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    I have been playing for three years now and really enjoy the current ED system. I find it fun to use the very different trees, different tree constructions and different abilities with different builds when doing various TR's. This new system is going to be generic and boring, and the charges is a new play style I do not enjoy. Not sure who the target audience is for this, but it is a really bad change for this player. Canceled sub and will wait and see if they are allowed to go through with this drastic and very disruptive change. I really hope not.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    I like ham sandwiches but if they change the way they make peanut butter I refuse to eat another ham sandwich.



    They fix "stuff" all the time. I can't recall the last time I've ran into a game breaking bug. All games have minor bugs/glitches.

    I pay for the game as well and I want EDs to change
    1 The charge system would contribute to breaking immersion, these are not separate issues.
    2 Gotta admit the game is in a buggy broken state, yeah it still runs but as if it were held together by string and gum, and they want to add to this? rather than replace or fix. It is a valid complaint if even one you may not care for.
    Last edited by atralyx; 06-19-2021 at 01:29 AM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    I can't recall the last time I've ran into a game breaking bug.
    I just TRed back to 1 on a build with no early self healing...

    Hireling AI

    It is completely game breaking when that is the primary option for healing solo, particularly in r1 where self heals are penalized extra, but hireling ai is so messed up they'll suddenly stop healing you, or let themselves die.

    I just died on irestone on literally the last pack of mobs because my hirelings just stopped following me for a minute, and then ran to my corpse and stood there till they died too. Both of them, two clerics and I still died. That's a broken game.

  15. #135
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I just TRed back to 1 on a build with no early self healing...

    Hireling AI

    It is completely game breaking when that is the primary option for healing solo, particularly in r1 where self heals are penalized extra, but hireling ai is so messed up they'll suddenly stop healing you, or let themselves die.

    I just died on irestone on literally the last pack of mobs because my hirelings just stopped following me for a minute, and then ran to my corpse and stood there till they died too. Both of them, two clerics and I still died. That's a broken game.
    The hireling AI is not a small fix or it would have already been dealt with. Is it a game breaking problem? I guess the depends on how much you are expecting out of a system that's always been unreliable. What they consider problems that need to be addressed now and what you consider problems that need to be addressed now simply don't match up and that's ok. Let's not toss around blanket statements that they aren't fixing anything when they simply aren't fixing what someone deems more important.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alizure View Post
    Well, look at you being all rude, lol. Fixing things is one thing... changing mechanics is a whole other story. The charge system is ****... it takes away from the immersion plain and simple. And also it's kinda a moba thing to. I think instead of trying to implement such changes as these... they should FIX the broken stuff first. Nah, but they won't do that. I like the game so much so I pay for it monthly. But I Hate the charge system. And I'm not by myself on the sentiment... a LOT of other people feel the same way. If I wanted something like that... i'd play WOW. I'd sure get better customer support lol.
    Eh, there are already systems in the game that ramp up from charges. We have abilities that have a set number of charges and some get the charges back if you do x,y or z. We have monk that has to have a certain number of specific "charges" done in a specific order to use abilities. I have yet to hear about these systems breaking the immersion for anyone.
    Last edited by Karthunk; 06-19-2021 at 11:04 AM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    The hireling AI is not a small fix or it would have already been dealt with. Is it a game breaking problem? I guess the depends on how much you are expecting out of a system that's always been unreliable. What they consider problems that need to be addressed now and what you consider problems that need to be addressed now simply don't match up and that's ok. Let's not toss around blanket statements that they aren't fixing anything when they simply aren't fixing what someone deems more important.
    This is off topic, but there is obviously some health threshold at which a hiriling will start trying to heal you and a separate one at whihc they start trying to heal themselves. If we could adjust these it would help a lot.

    Even when they are bugged out, simply mashing their heal button generally works. If we could move hotbars from the hirelings over to our main hotbars, it would be a lot easier to trigger this in the middle of a fight.

    Hirelings would still bug out and get us killed. But with those two small changes, that I assume would be a lot easier to implement than a wholesale rework of the AI, it would happen a lot less often.

  17. #137
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I just TRed back to 1 on a build with no early self healing...

    Hireling AI

    It is completely game breaking when that is the primary option for healing solo, particularly in r1 where self heals are penalized extra, but hireling ai is so messed up they'll suddenly stop healing you, or let themselves die.

    I just died on irestone on literally the last pack of mobs because my hirelings just stopped following me for a minute, and then ran to my corpse and stood there till they died too. Both of them, two clerics and I still died. That's a broken game.
    That's how hirelings work in DDO,

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alizure View Post
    Well, look at you being all rude, lol. Fixing things is one thing... changing mechanics is a whole other story. The charge system is ****... it takes away from the immersion plain and simple. And also it's kinda a moba thing to. I think instead of trying to implement such changes as these... they should FIX the broken stuff first. Nah, but they won't do that. I like the game so much so I pay for it monthly. But I Hate the charge system. And I'm not by myself on the sentiment... a LOT of other people feel the same way. If I wanted something like that... i'd play WOW. I'd sure get better customer support lol.
    Not only is it **** just from a pure mechanics / gameplay standpoint, but also the way in which it’s being jammed into every destiny as if to say “well everyone here’s your new way to play”. The sheer cookie cutter approach to this new ED system reeks of laziness and overall lack of creative effort.

    McKayla Maroney is not impressed and neither am I.

  19. #139
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    They are removing all the fun special and unique elements which make DDO a unique MMO experience, and replacing them with generic MMO mechanics.

    If I wanted to play WOW/NWN, i,I, be playing those awefiul games
    True

    Players who wants to play WoW are likely already there and the players that are here are here exactly because this is not WoW

    Making it play like MMO cookie cutter WoW clone is not an improvement
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 06-19-2021 at 01:35 PM.

  20. #140
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    So I can stop running in an off destiny accumulating karma? Will we be able to use the extra karma on anything when the new system is implemented or does all that karma just vanish?

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