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Thread: U51 changes

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Just as a couple openers:

    1. I paid for ED and filled them in back before we could even do it the easy saga way. I paid to have that power at level 20 not at level 30.

    2. Some of the ED power is not going to be available until AFTER level 30. I have a strong suspicion that they are going to charge us for that.
    All of us filled them in the hard way. But if this shakes things up a bit at cap, it's worth it to me.

  2. #162
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    All of us filled them in the hard way. But if this shakes things up a bit at cap, it's worth it to me.
    It will shake up nothing at cap.

    There will be ONE week max where everyone will tinker with numbers, a max dps setup will be figured out, then EVERY build will have the same exact setup going forward.

    It will simply replace the current meta with another cookie cutter setup. That is what this generic MMO system does in every other generic MMO.

    This unique and special game is becoming like every other boring grindy MMO
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodynobody1426 View Post
    If you look across all the changes it's basically a giant nerf to all the stuff we used to use while trying to force folks into theme based playstyles.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality. (Note: this quote was from 2013, things never change)

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    All of us filled them in the hard way. But if this shakes things up a bit at cap, it's worth it to me.
    I think here we are seeing the crux of the problem. At cap I feel these new destines will be more than powerful enough for the content we have and I doubt if anyone that isn't just griping for the sake of it is bemoaning the power loss there. From 20-26 though we are going to have to slog through content that has been balanced with full destinies in mind from conception. Its the low epics that I would think are the point of concern for the majority of players.

    To look at this from a different direction imagine if they changed enhancements so you could use your full 80 points from character creation. Levels 1-16 would become absurdly easy and we would all expect the content to be massively powered up to compensate. That is exactly where we are now in regards to epic destinies and game balance. I find it highly unlikely that SSG are going to devote the amount of work hours that will be required to completely re-balance the game with this new system in mind so where does that leave the average player who still wants to enjoy playing epics and isn't just worried about playing at cap?

    This is just a personal opinion but I honestly think that SSG should have left ED's alone and just removed the Kama requirements for ETR. They could then have used the currently planned ED format for Legendary content and built that content from the ground up balanced against the new level of power from the start. I feel level 30+ content would have been the perfect place to have a new system that everyone could gain the same level of power from and actually use it to decrease the powergap between vet and new players. Trying to do this in a section of the game that is already balanced against a set amount of power is I feel a bad choice and is going to take a herculean amount of work to re-balance if they bother to do more than a cursory pass over.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by vryxnr View Post
    When enhancement trees were revamped (aka: added, it used to be an awkward feat tree type of system) it was arguably an even larger change to the game mechanics. There were people opposed to those changes (not claiming this about anyone, but there will always be people against change just because it is change), but in general it was applauded as a success. I will have to look into the proposed upcoming changes in detail myself, but I've already heard from some newer players (yes, there are still some new players coming in) that they are excited for these changes.

    I'm not on either side atm, but when I look at changes my main thought is how much effort it will take to adjust and modify my characters to work with the changes appropriately. The more effort, the worse I'll feel about them, but I will admit I haven't looked that hard at the proposed changes yet.
    I didn´t felt that my toons were nerfed as the old enhancement system were changed but instead they got only better- that is not the case with the ED revamp at the moment. I would not comment if they add to the old system or translate the old into the new, but at the moment at lvl 20 all my toons are nerved and I don´t like that just for a system change my fun and toons should be nerved.

    Tarinia

  5. #165
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarinia View Post
    I didn´t felt that my toons were nerfed as the old enhancement system were changed but instead they got only better- that is not the case with the ED revamp at the moment. I would not comment if they add to the old system or translate the old into the new, but at the moment at lvl 20 all my toons are nerved and I don´t like that just for a system change my fun and toons should be nerved.

    Tarinia
    This. They are not comparable situations. Also, in that situation, I didn't have the feeling that they were cheating me by taking things from me to sell them to me again later. And now I do have that impression, and no matter how much they want to deny it: they have done it too many times in the last few years for it to have credibility.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by cernunan View Post
    it will shake up nothing at cap.

    There will be one week max where everyone will tinker with numbers, a max dps setup will be figured out, then every build will have the same exact setup going forward.

    It will simply replace the current meta with another cookie cutter setup. That is what this generic mmo system does in every other generic mmo.

    This unique and special game is becoming like every other boring grindy mmo
    lol!

  7. #167
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    lol!
    Yes, the deeply thought out arguments of the 3 people overwhelming defending this system, despite how it will obviously be detrimental to most of the player base,are super convincing
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodynobody1426 View Post
    If you look across all the changes it's basically a giant nerf to all the stuff we used to use while trying to force folks into theme based playstyles.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality. (Note: this quote was from 2013, things never change)

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    Yes, the deeply thought out arguments of the 3 people overwhelming defending this system, despite how it will obviously be detrimental to most of the player base,are super convincing
    i just think it's hilarious how you're upset about a change that you claim doesn't change the status quo. your entire argument is that it doesn't change anything, and yet, you are upset

  9. #169
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    i just think it's hilarious how you're upset about a change that you claim doesn't change the status quo. your entire argument is that it doesn't change anything, and yet, you are upset
    Except that's not what I posted .

    People min maxing the terrible changes doesn't make them any less terrible
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodynobody1426 View Post
    If you look across all the changes it's basically a giant nerf to all the stuff we used to use while trying to force folks into theme based playstyles.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality. (Note: this quote was from 2013, things never change)

  10. #170
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    Telling me what is literally in front of my eyes with this new system isn't what I am actually seeing does not convince me I am wrong.

    This new system strips everything that was fun from the old system and guts it, while locking it away behind arbitrary level requirements, making the 20-30 game an unbearable unfun grind slog.

    They are selling you back your best abilities by taking them away from you, and only making them available after level 31+, in the new system they will be selling you for level 31+, the new system that will be for your legendary levels.

    You know you have to buy epic destinies to use them, right? The new system, that will have all the fun stuff being chopped from the destinies, which you have already purchased, will be in the new system you need to buy.

    You can naively pretend that what is happening is actually happening. But it is still actually happening
    You know, I was talking to my brother today,
    And even tho he’s not gaming anymore either,
    He explained me the same thing
    He asked if I was tier 3, top raider kinda thing
    Yes
    Well, they take the tier 3 chop it up, nerf it and sell it back to you as tier 2
    In this case he was exampling wow
    But it’s such a simple and poingnant remark,
    Made offf the cuff as we were talking gaming
    That’s just the practice
    Ha another form of reincarnation
    Selling you power nerfing it and selling it back again
    Over and over
    The benefit
    Variety

    But we had this system 9 years, and I came back 4 months ago to new changes from when I left 2 years ago
    Now a complete rework
    Kil Glory
    30 alchemist
    HOW
    Sarlona

  11. #171
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Greetings, I have been away for 8-9 months?

    I never liked Epic Destinies.

    I always thought the 1-20 TR at cap or run Raids every 3 days was the best version of DDO...

    Not sure if my opinion matters much since I am an inconsistent player...I play 6 months on and 6-12 months off.

    Each cycle of playing and not playing gets shorter/longer (time in game gets shorter and time away gets longer).

    I am honestly concerned for the health of the game if this goes through. Though I thought this about Reaper as well, so maybe I am just wrong.

    But my question is this: "Will they rebalance early and mid epic level quests since we will be weaker?"

    If they remove abilities and make them level 31+ and we have to buy some expansion to regain access to said abilities...I think that will be the end for many players. Not sure if it will spell out the death of the game or not.

    But I find myself curious if DDO stays alive due to "whales" or a large number of "regular players"? The answer is most definitely a combination of these two types of players.

    The real question is too many from either group drops out, I am curious what happens next.
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  12. #172
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    The game is changing.

    Adapt. Find weaknesses. Exploit.

    What's not to like?

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    The game is changing.

    Adapt. Find weaknesses. Exploit.

    What's not to like?
    The fact that we all spend time running past lives to each time gain a small increment in power, only to have a lot of said power taken away in one fell swoop, only to potentially sold back to us or have to earn back through extra grinding?

    People are naturally loss averse. The psychology of loss is a well known phenomena and the vast majority of people will react negatively to this.

    If my wage is cut by 10% but I'm told that I can do overtime to earn back 5% of my paycut, I'm not going to stick around in that job for long!

  14. #174
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitma View Post
    The fact that we all spend time running past lives to each time gain a small increment in power, only to have a lot of said power taken away in one fell swoop, only to potentially sold back to us or have to earn back through extra grinding?
    First, I'll say you just described almost every video game I've ever played. It's math, and players are constantly seeking higher numbers and developers consistently increase the difficulty. That said, where in this pass does it invalidate past lives?
    Epicsoul | Omnisoul | Ultrasoul - Assistant to the Regional Manager of Lava Divers

  15. #175
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitma View Post
    The fact that we all spend time running past lives to each time gain a small increment in power, only to have a lot of said power taken away in one fell swoop, only to potentially sold back to us or have to earn back through extra grinding?

    People are naturally loss averse. The psychology of loss is a well known phenomena and the vast majority of people will react negatively to this.

    If my wage is cut by 10% but I'm told that I can do overtime to earn back 5% of my paycut, I'm not going to stick around in that job for long!
    No where has there been anything stated about anything being sold for this change to EDs.

    The grind should be the same, it's just that now you get your ED abilities unlocked as you level from 20 to 30.

  16. #176
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    No where has there been anything stated about anything being sold for this change to EDs.

    The grind should be the same, it's just that now you get your ED abilities unlocked as you level from 20 to 30.
    I think the implication is it will all be back in place close enough to what we have been used to at level 35 or 40 or whatever their new cap will be. Because it sure is not back in place at 30.
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by arminius View Post
    I think the implication is it will all be back in place close enough to what we have been used to at level 35 or 40 or whatever their new cap will be. Because it sure is not back in place at 30.
    Are you talking about overall power levels?

    This system is in very, very early production. There are going to be a lot of tweeks and changes made to it.

    I am 100% good with overall player power being reduced. The power creep bloat has been way too high for way too long.

  18. #178
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    Are you talking about overall power levels?

    This system is in very, very early production. There are going to be a lot of tweeks and changes made to it.

    I am 100% good with overall player power being reduced. The power creep bloat has been way too high for way too long.
    That wasn't your question though, you were asking how it could be maintained that they were taking power away only to sell it back monetarily or via grind in a different form. This is how. You are agreeing that they are taking the power away. The other commenters are just filling in the dots of what the raise of the level cap will then mean in terms of "giving" it back, given that acknowledged takeaway.
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  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    First, I'll say you just described almost every video game I've ever played. It's math, and players are constantly seeking higher numbers and developers consistently increase the difficulty. That said, where in this pass does it invalidate past lives?
    Twists for 1

  20. #180
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    I am by no means a min-maxer and, as with all previews, there is a lot that still needs to be seen how it shakes out (lvl raise, new abilities, the missing ed trees, etc.) however the preview is to get a general idea and feedback on that general idea, less so the specifics.

    With this in mind, I believe there is some good : larger choice of ed's and the potential to introduce more over time, give more 'meaning' to low/mid lvl epic content, new toons' easier access (first lifers only) to ed's, more synergy with their heroic toon build, new abilities, removal of karma...

    and some bad : heavy level gating of abilities, pre-disposition for cap raise, abilities with charge m'ment, partial less build flexibility*, construction of some trees (of the ones we've seen), difficulty with re-speccing on the fly (eg. for raids)...

    and many, many still unclear!

    *the twists we have now allow us to pick from more than 3 trees; also, we say T5, T4 and T2/3 over the three trees but has anyone counted how many T5 or T4 abilities our point buy-in allows us? Is this calculation based on spending the bare minimum to unblock one top tier ability?

    I have stopped playing post-U49 but am waiting to see how this all plays out over the next couple of updates; I hope things end up globally better but am definately in the more pessimistic camp. So before some cheer at the increased statistics in active players when U51 goes live, please keep in mind that it is only because I've been playing for about 12 years and hope that the sum of all parts is ok but generally not having even attempted at improving certain aspects of the game (grind, alts, lfm panel, build diversity nerfs, etc.) over the last couple of years has slowly eroded my will to invest in a lack of fun. The real result will be seeing those stats a few months after U51 goes live; lets hope it's an up-tick!

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