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Thread: U51 changes

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    It's a massive degradation of character performance for 20 up to at least 26, arguably until 29; you can't even take the tier 5 abilities until level 30 and those will be the more powerful abilities you might have previously had available at 20.

    Low/mid epics are a big part of epic TR and a big part of iconic character leveling. Both are going to suffer the hit to performance.
    But that was one problem... You got a huge power jump at level 19->20, but all the levels from 21->29 feel relatively minuscule.

    The aim was not to keep this power jump, but to flatten the power curve. Sadly, I fear in the progress they might lower the maximum available power. But we still don't know if/how they reintroduce epic moments.

    Also, I think they just use this also as a way to scale down overpowered abilities in the current system (looking at you, Meld into Darkness) in order to not having to design monsters/quests with that in their mind.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    And I'm so glad they were changed. The old enhancements were terrible.

    I'm not convinced the ED changes are bad. They need work, but it sounds like it has potential. Maybe it'll make the game more fun than this mindless nonsense it's been for years.
    What really struck out to me is cases where the changes proposed, seem to be less fun than existing changes. I'm not talking about stronger or weaker, but specifically less fun. Why add after-shrine effects, will it really break the ability to just grant it to you all the time? Why have the massive level gates between abilities, grouping in epics is already scarce and spread out, with tons of players grinding out slayers?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forcystus View Post
    But that was one problem... You got a huge power jump at level 19->20, but all the levels from 21->29 feel relatively minuscule.
    That huge power jump corresponded with a huge difficulty jump when changing from heroic level quests to epic level quests.

    Another solution to the problem is decreasing the early/mid epic quest difficulty (mob and boss hp/damage scaling). I think that's still less fun in terms of not having as many interesting abilities until you hit level 30, but it does at least keep the epic power/difficulty ratios the same from the current system to the new system.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    There is nothing in the new system that a new player who starts in Epics after these changes could not earn. Furthermore, after these changes you will not need Karma to Epic Reincarnate, which will make the Epic Reincarnation process more streamlined than it was before, as you will not be forced to play in an off-destiny. You will also not need to level up a destiny to unlock different destinies, as all trees will be unlocked for you at level 20.
    I'm just going to mention one, but there could be more, yet this is probably the most important. MP and RP from cores, there is no way that a first lifer could get all the MP and RP we get now from a fully leveled ED, heck I couldn't do it even with 55 points to spend as a range toon...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfElectricMen View Post
    [Citation needed]
    I'm sorry but what is this 4e you are talking about? 4e never happened, we jumped over from 3,5 to 5e with a small break for pathfinder and some wizkids boardgames in between.

    All jokes aside, the ONLY people that liked 4e where those that STARTED playing with 4e aka those who didn't know ANY better. That's why it sold TERRIBLY BAD and was replaced faster than any other edition. Citation? EVERYONE EVER
    Bought my first dungeon master's guide in 1992. My favourite part of ddo is coffee and slayers

  6. #66
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    There's definitely going to be a change in the meta, but being able to mix and match beyond just Twists is likely going to be a buff, not a nerf. Especially as more of the trees come out and we get more options to mix and match between.

    Some things are being taken away or at least locked into more exclusive opportunity costs, like Frog and Dire Charge. Other things, though, are now possible that werent before, like picking up Evasion in Shadowdancer for 11 points, and still being able to get T5 in another tree. That's going to be huge for Light armor non-evasion builds.

    At the end of the day, on Live right now we only get 24 points, and on Lama we get more than twice that. Many of the enhancements remain the same, so its really a big net buff - you can basically take a whole tree like you do now, but instead of just getting a couple Twists to add to it, you can take half of another tree and then splash in a third - including the Cores.
    At first glance, this does seem like a 'possible' boon to characters. But as you read more into this, you find so many things that will just wreck play styles. Wis Monks no longer with a dire charge. Cha Paladins/Swashbucklers, no dire charge. We have not seen Exalted Angle yet but my light caster is going to miss Frog.

    And I am sorry, but this whole charge thing is ridiculous. Why? Managing charges is not something I want in this game. I can barely tolerate it in D2 or PoE. It does not belong in DDO.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    I'm sorry but what is this 4e you are talking about? 4e never happened, we jumped over from 3,5 to 5e with a small break for pathfinder and some wizkids boardgames in between.

    All jokes aside, the ONLY people that liked 4e where those that STARTED playing with 4e aka those who didn't know ANY better. That's why it sold TERRIBLY BAD and was replaced faster than any other edition. Citation? EVERYONE EVER
    Yeah, 4E was terrible. I think even the 5E rule set is too simplified but at least it feels more D&D.

    I can't speak for the new EDs as I haven't tested them. It's way too complex of a change to evaluate entirely based on patch notes. In fact, I would say it's difficult even in-game because half the trees are missing, which is kind of crucial in a multi-tree system. It's clear quite a few abilities need tweaking. Is any melee not going to play T5 LD for Dire Charge and pick up Adrenaline from Fury?

    I'm also wondering if they have made the design space too complicated by having several generator/spender mechanics per tree. These are supposed to be core functionality of the trees, so they are going to have to design and balance 40-60 unique generators+spenders against each other. Will this be easier than maintaining the old trees? Focus needs to be on viable and fun gameplay options imo. They also took a lot of risks by taking out well-liked and functional abilities from trees, which I personally would have been more cautious with. Maybe they will show up in other trees :-)

    I like their intentions though, and spreading out the power curve by level gating makes sense from balancing perspective but too many people may hate it.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 06-16-2021 at 07:09 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    At first glance, this does seem like a 'possible' boon to characters. But as you read more into this, you find so many things that will just wreck play styles. Wis Monks no longer with a dire charge. Cha Paladins/Swashbucklers, no dire charge. We have not seen Exalted Angle yet but my light caster is going to miss Frog.

    And I am sorry, but this whole charge thing is ridiculous. Why? Managing charges is not something I want in this game. I can barely tolerate it in D2 or PoE. It does not belong in DDO.
    Managing charges can be OK if it is very well visualized and the abilities aren't clunky. If it's just a buff bar icon with a number, it's going to be really distracting. Have you tried it?

  9. #69
    The Hatchery Drekisen's Avatar
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    I find the revamp kind of interesting, it seems to me with the destiny points available and being able to use three destinies the power would increase.

    I will say losing all that power in the earlier epic levels might be a drag, but then it might not even matter....at least for some playstyles.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
    Im not even sure why they are messing with with destinys, did we ask for this? i didnt.was there a poll that i missed somewhere?
    Because they will be selling Legendary Destinies. I hazard to guess the price point will be $39.95 USD. This is what they do. They sell power, grind - hit the ceiling - nerf it - sell it back to you. Rinse and repeat. My signature says it all.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Meld is going to be a permanent 60% uncapped dodge, which means you will be able to stay at 95% indefinitely on many builds. Then, because it is part of the martial sphere, you will also be able to have dire charge. All melee builds in the game will be martialx3 LD T5 (Dire Charge and meld +1 martial max charge) SD T3 (Meld and meld+1 martial max charge) GMOF T3 (Meld +1 martial max charge) now.

    What we are doing with a charge/benefit sphere system is simplifying the epic destinies down to 4 choices, one for each sphere. Martial, Primal, Divine, or Arcane. You will want tons of charge maximum increases and abilities that scale off that charge type. If you are melee, you will take martialx3, if you are ranged you will take primalx3, if you are a tank or healer you will take divinex3, and if you are an arcane you will take arcanex3.

    So you have your choice of any 3 epic destinies to take, but epic destinies are sorted into groups of 3 that work together, so you will generally take all 3 from the same group that matches your archtype. You can make any of the 3 in a group your primary one. It is similar to live where you pick your primary destiny, just that essentially your twists which are the abilities of the other two destinies in the same group are decided for you.
    Maybe, hard to tell until we get all of the destinies. But yeah meld is going to get a nerf before it goes live I have several builds that will have max dodge 100% of the time with it as it stands. My biggest fear is the devs seem to have no concept of the level of power needed. On the one hand we have overpowered like meld, on the other hand we have *** moments like the 5 temp hp on a smite..... like do the devs not realize how hard their mobs hit?????? Also they removed some of the best abilities and gave us a bunch of costly fillers. 1 dp for 2 prr/mrr is a joke. Or 3 whole ac. Its like the devs have no understanding of the numbers in epics.

  12. #72
    Community Member Nonesuch2008's Avatar
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    Sometimes playing DDO heavily involves scrubbing your mind of past knowledge, patterns and expectations. I always give the new methods a go before completely passing judgement on the changes, and the end result is that I either enjoy the new implementation, or I don't. I'm sure that this perspective on U51 will be influenced by comparing those characters that I have fleshed out all the destinies that I want versus those which I have a more minimal investment in, so for now, it's we'll see when the time comes.

    Mentally preparing for this change leads me to this philosophy, though:

    "When asked if the developers hate the players, as they make so many challenging jumping puzzles, their response was that they have what they consider a “… normal amount of contempt for the players.” This is good. A dungeon master should always nurse a healthy contempt for his or her players."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoobTheProud View Post
    We have no idea if this is a power nerf or not. It may well turn out to be a power explosion as people find they are able to cobble together very powerful builds at endgame that would not be possible now due to the way ED's and Epic Feats interact.

    It's pretty clear it is going to be a power nerf in the early 20's for players with fully fleshed out ED's. However those levels are a small part of the overall DDO experience. 30+ may well become the place most people hang out moving forward and the system clearly has the potential to create a very broken meta at cap if things are done wrong.
    There wlll be winners, but I don't see how ranged of any type will be a benefactor. Almost all of their CC and Oh Sh*t epic moments are are now gone or only available at level 30.

    At least in my case, it was barely acceptable how hard leveling was from 20-28 now, I just dont see my even doing ETRs any more for the small benefits each one gives now with much harder leveling resulting in, at least for me, being unable to run on R1 or even EE soloing. Also, even at 30 my build will be unable to use any of my epic moments that result in much of my success and thay are all disappearing or only showing up in a reduced way at level 30.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    At first glance, this does seem like a 'possible' boon to characters. But as you read more into this, you find so many things that will just wreck play styles. Wis Monks no longer with a dire charge. Cha Paladins/Swashbucklers, no dire charge. We have not seen Exalted Angle yet but my light caster is going to miss Frog.

    And I am sorry, but this whole charge thing is ridiculous. Why? Managing charges is not something I want in this game. I can barely tolerate it in D2 or PoE. It does not belong in DDO.
    Again, there are likely going to be options to adapt to, for the things we're losing

    Example: instead of Dire Charge for CHA melees, take Shiradi T1 for Lights. That's a CHA based Cone AOE CC with three separate CC rolls including stun, available from L20. And remember that they're reducing mob saves too, so you wont necessarily need the crazy high Stunning DC you do now for Dire Charge in order for your CCs to be effective.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetster11 View Post
    There wlll be winners, but I don't see how ranged of any type will be a benefactor.
    DC, thats how

    Builder stacks Vuln and Destruction, spender is +4W +3/+3 crit with max-stack Vuln and Destruction, 12 sec CD, Smite without requiring any Smite charges. With IPS, any ranged build is pretty much a Death Star laser every 12 seconds.

    And they talked about possibly moving Hunts End down from the T5 of Shiradi, similar to how Adrenaline now unlocks at L20 and improves as you go up...that'd make it +100% dam +4W with guaranteed crit and +3 mult, every 12 secs, from as soon as you hit L20

  16. #76

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    I just transferred an 1st life - lv 20 - no epic XP alt - to the test server and played around with the new system. (pure monk)

    9 ED points - spent on 3 trees.

    Have Cocoon from Primal, 3
    Have +6 DC from Legendary, 4
    2 points to start leveling up in Grandmaster, 2

    This is great change from my point of view - starting without anything filled out and unlocking things from the start was a really unpleasant. Much better for alts and new folks without all the EDs unlocked.
    I need to play around with some of my mains and others to see how these changes feel with a more mature character.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    DC, thats how

    Builder stacks Vuln and Destruction, spender is +4W +3/+3 crit with max-stack Vuln and Destruction, 12 sec CD, Smite without requiring any Smite charges. With IPS, any ranged build is pretty much a Death Star laser every 12 seconds.

    And they talked about possibly moving Hunts End down from the T5 of Shiradi, similar to how Adrenaline now unlocks at L20 and improves as you go up...that'd make it +100% dam +4W with guaranteed crit and +3 mult, every 12 secs, from as soon as you hit L20
    Hunts end as a builder would put your other builder on CD from my understanding. And it removes any divine charges you build. So definitely nowhere near what you are thinking unless I am wrong.

  18. #78
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlumsee View Post
    Sigh! Monk screwed yet again.
    The worst out of all planed. Its a tree full of Meah!

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Again, there are likely going to be options to adapt to, for the things we're losing

    Example: instead of Dire Charge for CHA melees, take Shiradi T1 for Lights. That's a CHA based Cone AOE CC with three separate CC rolls including stun, available from L20. And remember that they're reducing mob saves too, so you wont necessarily need the crazy high Stunning DC you do now for Dire Charge in order for your CCs to be effective.
    Going to take your melee up the tree with no melee power to get the illusion dc based SLA? Hmmm nope I don’t think so.

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    someone cast Dev Ward on the game, please !

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