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  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Shiradi Champion

    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Hello folks! This is part of the Epic Overhaul. If you haven't read our Overview post and its companion info post, please do that first before reading this!


    Core Abilities

    1. Fey Favor (Level 20): You gain the Magical Training Feat. Each core ability including this one grants +6 Ranged power, +50 Spellpoints, and +5 Force and Universal Spell Power. In addition, this grants you a +1 Epic Bonus to Spell DCs. Only the Highest Epic Bonus to Spell DCs you get from Destiny Cores applies.
    2. Pierce the Twilight (level 23): +5 to Attack with Ranged Weapons, +5 Spell Penetration. Your Epic Bonus to Spell DCs increases to +2.
    3. Audience with the Queen (level 26): Get some tea! When you Rest at a shrine, you pop off for some tea, and randomly get a beneficial effect based on the type of tea you receive. These effects last for 10 minutes. Your Epic Bonus to Spell DCs increases to +3.




    Tier 1 (requires level 20):

    • Prism: Shiradi Champion Destiny Mantle: Ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to deal 2d10 damage to a random ability score.
    • Wild Magics: +30/60/100 SP. Rank 3: +5 Force and Universal Spell Power
    • Shiradi Growth: Choose a Spell or a Ranged Attack that builds Primal Charges. Multiselector
      • Pin: Primal Builder: Ranged Attack: +1/2/3(W). On hit, generate one Primal Charge. The first target hit is Slowed for 3 seconds. On Crit: The first target hit is instead Immobilized for 3 seconds. Rank 3: +1 Critical Threat and Multiplier. Cooldown: 6 seconds, CC duration 3 seconds.
      • Fey Lights: Primal Builder: SLA: Enemies in a cone must make a save (20 + Highest of INT/WIS/CHA + Illusion bonuses) versus Will, Fort, and Reflex for a Daze, Stun, and Immobilize effect. On hitting at least one enemy, generate one Primal Charge. Cooldown: 6 seconds, CC duration 3 seconds. Activation Cost: 10 Spell Points.
    • Good Luck: +1/2/3 Luck bonus to all Saving Throws and Skills. If you have the Luck of Heroes feat, double this bonus.
    • Fey Sight: +2/4/6 Listen, Search, and Spot. Rank 3: You are immune to Blindness.


    Tier 2 (requires level 20):

    • Rainbow: While in your Prism Destiny Mantle, your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to deal 1d100 extra damage of a random type. This damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.
    • Empathetic Link: +1/2/3 charges of Wild Empathy.
    • Shiradi Power Choose a Spell or Ranged Attack that expends Primal Charges. Multiselector:
      • Otto's Whistler: Primal Spender: Ranged Attack: Make a ranged attack with +1/2/3(W). If target is moving, it is forced to Dance for 18 seconds. In addition, on hit you deal 1d6 Force Damage per Primal Charge spent. This damage scales with Ranged Power. Cooldown: 15 Seconds.
      • Beguile: Primal Spender: SLA: Target must make a Will save versus (20 + Highest of INT/WIS/CHA + Enchantment bonuses) to Charm a single target. Cooldown 25 seconds. +1 to the DC per Primal Charge consumed. Cooldown: 15 seconds. Activation Cost: 10 Spell Points.
    • Healing Spring: Casts Vigor on multiple targets. A positve energy conjuration that heals 1d6 +1 per 3 caster levels (max +11 at level 33), every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. When the initial effect expires, a smaller healing effect hat heals 1 HP every 5 seconds for 30 seconds is applied. Only one Vigor spell can be active at a time, with the most beneficial taking priority. If multiple Vigor spells are cast on the same target, then the duration is extended. Cooldown: 30 Seconds. Activation Cost: 1 Wild Empathy Charge. Passive: +1 Wild Empathy Charge.
    • Phase Double: +2/4/6% Doubleshot. Each Primal Charge grants +1% stacking incorporeality.


    Tier 3 (requires level 23):

    • Double Rainbow: While in your Prism Destiny Mantle, your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to inflict a random effect on your target. These effects scale with various different things depending on their origins, including Melee, Ranged, and Spell Power.
    • Pierce Deception: You gain the Watchful Eye feat. (If you pass within 5 feet of a trap, you make a Search check to notice it as if actively Searching. (You still need the Trapfinding feat to successfully Search for difficult traps.)) If you have the Watchful Eye feat, +5% Doubleshot.
    • Shiradi Magic: Select a Spell School to Specialize in. Multiselector:
      • Conjuration: +1/2/3 Conjuration Spell DCs.
      • Enchantment: +1/2/3 Enchantment Spell DCs.
      • Illusion: +1/2/3 Illusion Spell DCs.
      • Transmutation: +1/2/3 Transmutation Spell DCs.
    • Vision: Your attacks have Ghost Touch and you bypass 5% dodge and fortification. If you have the Holy Strike feat, double the dodge and fortification bypass.
    • Elemental Absorption: +3/6/10% elemental absorption with fire/cold/acid/electric damage. Rank 3: +1 Primal Charge cap.


    Tier 4 (requires level 26):

    • Fey Form: While in your Prism Mantle, gain DR 10 Cold Iron and +5 force and universal spell power.
    • Track: Dealing damage to enemies reduces their AC by 1 and fortification by 2%. stacks 10 times.
    • Enemy of my Own: You gain the Favored Enemy: Fey feat.
    • Whirling Wrists: +10/20/30% Attack Speed with Thrown Weapons.
    • Step into the Wilds: You gain Displacement. This effect lasts as long as the quest or until you die or it is dispelled. Resting will return it.


    Tier 5 (requires level 30):

    • Nerve Venom: While in your Prism Mantle: Your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to paralyze living creatures for 6 seconds.
    • Lore of the Hunt: Ranged Weapons gain +1 Critical Damage Multiplier on rolls of 19-20.
    • Control: +1/2/3 to all Spell DCs.
    • Feywild Attunement: Every 4 Wilderness Lore feats grant you +1% Dodge. You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot range. +10 Force and Universal Spell Power.
    • Hunt's End: Your next shot with a Ranged or Thrown weapon has +400% damage. This shot has +20 to Critical Threat Range. Cooldown: 18 Seconds.
    Last edited by Cocomajobo; 06-15-2021 at 01:19 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Zezahk's Avatar
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    Hot take: Buguile is worthless. Charm is usually nice in a vacuum, but enchantment is already oversaturated with this effect and in better (read: AoE) forms. Add on that the intended complimentary builder is not only far better, but illusion-based. Also fairly certain at a glance (someone test this) that this doesn't work on the enchanter's usual foils: undead and constructs.

  3. #3
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    Default Some notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zezahk View Post
    Hot take: Buguile is worthless. Charm is usually nice in a vacuum, but enchantment is already oversaturated with this effect and in better (read: AoE) forms. Add on that the intended complimentary builder is not only far better, but illusion-based. Also fairly certain at a glance (someone test this) that this doesn't work on the enchanter's usual foils: undead and constructs.
    This.

    Also, some of the bonuses (IMHO) came in too late in the tree to be even considered a decent option for spending my limited points.

    I.e: Favored enemy Fey. (As far as i can remember its just +2 Dmg/tier. How does that epic level affect this?) i feel that its maybe a bit high for a Tier 4?

    Same goes for Track or Watchful Eye.

    Just my 2 cts.

    Peace!

  4. #4

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    > Audience with the Queen (level 26):

    Is the roll to determine the beneficial effect still influenced by your Diplomacy skill?
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  5. #5
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Few things:
    Immobilized: does this count as helpless?
    Feywild Attunement: Can this go to Dodge Cap, instead of dodge. As is dodge at level 30 for most is sitting at the cap already.
    Hunts End: Back up to 400% again? +20 range doesnt matter 1 will remain a miss, and everyone can already get the 2-20 range.
    Healing Spring: Personally Id prefer a higher form of vigor if I'm going to expend wild empathy charges for this instead of mark of the hunted, but +1 charge is nice.

    Primal Spender (otto's whistler) in this tree is underwhelming 1d6 per charge, mostly maxing out at 5 charges due to fury being melee only. Scaling to Ranged power (assuming 100% as it didnt state otherwise). In probably many cases Id much rather go with the primal spender in primal avatar as that scales to character level and gets a % damage increase per charge spent/doubles if more than 3(looking at the fire one), which also heals around caster.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    How come melee gets adreneline at 20 and ranged needs to wait till 30 for hunts end? this makes ranged basically unplayable until 30 as it would take forever to beat down epic mobs.

    the level gating is going to destroy epics.
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  7. #7

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    > Healing Spring: Casts Vigor

    Super disappointed with this change since the Vigor spells as a whole underperform. The old Healing Spring that instead uses Wild Empathy charges is preferred.

    > Prism: Shiradi Champion Destiny Mantle: Ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance
    > Rainbow: While in your Prism Destiny Mantle, your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance
    > Double Rainbow: While in your Prism Destiny Mantle, your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance
    > Nerve Venom: While in your Prism Mantle: Your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to paralyze living creatures

    Please scale the 7% chance to account for the proc reduction due to the recent doubleshot performance optimization. And 7% for offensive spells is a rounding error considering the throughput of spells compared to ranged/thrown attacks. As it stands right now, as a ranged 20 Ranger, there's little incentive to take this ED's fully purchased mantle. Even a tier 1 mantle like the 10% action boost runspeed from GMoF would be preferred.

    > Feywild Attunement: Every 4 Wilderness Lore feats grant you +1% Dodge.

    This needs to be Dodge, Dodge Cap and Max Dex Bonus. Without the latter two, it's a wallpaper benefit. L30 characters are constrained by Dodge Cap and MDB. Even on my toon with all past lives and reaper points, it's limited to 26% Dodge maximum.
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  8. #8
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    This epic destiny is supposed to be the ranged epic destiny. But it is forced to share with a spell casting destiny which waters it down significantly.

    Tier 2:
    Healing Spring: seems substaintially weaker than it used to be.

    Tier 4:
    Whirling wrists: weaker than it used to be

    Tier 5:
    Hunt's End: The equivalent of Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline. ( which ranged can no longer use ) But unlike adrenaline which Fury gives at Tier 1 and gradually builds up with additional epic destiny choices in later tiers. Ranged get nothing for large scale damage until tier 5 and level 30. A hunt's end ability should be offered at tier 1 and provide +100% damage. And then later abilities in Tier 3,4 and 5 should increase the damage by 100% each. Otherwise this update is a massive nerf for ranged from level 20-29.

  9. #9
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    With neither Nerve Venom nor Hunts End useable during level 20-29 the only ranged tree looks very, very weak for leveling in epics.

    The Mantle definitely needs to add more power and sooner in the tree.

    Please reconsider.
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  10. #10
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    Default Weak Cores

    Also, Comparing Cores with shadowdancer I feel this ED gets the short Stick

    >Fey Favor (Level 20): You gain the Magical Training Feat. Each core ability including this one grants +6 Ranged power, +50 Spellpoints, and +5 Force and Universal Spell Power. In addition, this grants you a +1 Epic Bonus to Spell DCs. Only the Highest Epic Bonus to Spell DCs you get from Destiny Cores applies.

    >Retreat to the Shadows (level 20): You gain the Trapfinding feat if you did not have it already. Each core ability in this tree, including this one, grants +1 Epic bonus to all Spell DCs, +10 Melee Power, +6 Ranged Power, +5 Force Spellpower, and +5 Universal spell power.

    Shiradi trades 10 MP for 50 SP? Probably should be either higher SP or higher Ranged Power since this and Fury are the EDs that will stand out from the new norm.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    1. Audience with the Queen (level 26): Get some tea! When you Rest at a shrine, you pop off for some tea, and randomly get a beneficial effect based on the type of tea you receive. These effects last for 10 minutes. Your Epic Bonus to Spell DCs increases to +3.
    Why is this now "at a shrine" and not usable when we feel like it? It's always been a useful "oh s***" button if nothing else while now it's potentially just ... nothing. Literally so in the, admittedly very small number of, quests and raids without shrines.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zezahk View Post
    Hot take: Buguile is worthless. Charm is usually nice in a vacuum, but enchantment is already oversaturated with this effect and in better (read: AoE) forms. Add on that the intended complimentary builder is not only far better, but illusion-based. Also fairly certain at a glance (someone test this) that this doesn't work on the enchanter's usual foils: undead and constructs.
    Agreed, it's a bit below the bar. One of the things we were considering adding (but weren't able to get done in time) is something like: "Creatures charmed by Beguile gain +100% Damage and +100 Spell Power per Primal Token consumed. This effect is removed when they stop being Charmed."

    Quote Originally Posted by Feltharen View Post
    This.

    Also, some of the bonuses (IMHO) came in too late in the tree to be even considered a decent option for spending my limited points.

    I.e: Favored enemy Fey. (As far as i can remember its just +2 Dmg/tier. How does that epic level affect this?) i feel that its maybe a bit high for a Tier 4?

    Same goes for Track or Watchful Eye.

    Just my 2 cts.

    Peace!
    Good feedback! We may need to move some of these down or out. Like we've said before, this is super early, and reconciling power levels vs. investment is definitely a part of what still needs to happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Few things:
    Immobilized: does this count as helpless?
    Hunts End: Back up to 400% again? +20 range doesnt matter 1 will remain a miss, and everyone can already get the 2-20 range.
    Immobilized does not count as Helpless - It only prevents the affected creature or player from moving. (They can still turn.)

    Hunt's End should eventually match the Live numbers. This pass started before the recent changes and needs those tooltips updated to match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    How come melee gets adreneline at 20 and ranged needs to wait till 30 for hunts end? this makes ranged basically unplayable until 30 as it would take forever to beat down epic mobs.

    the level gating is going to destroy epics.
    This is a strong point, and a good argument for replacing Pin as the ranged Builder with a version of Hunt's End that gets upgraded, similar to Fury. We'll see what we can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by elvesunited View Post
    Whirling wrists: weaker than it used to be
    Yep. To be honest, because of the animation capping problems, most throwers aren't even getting the majority of the ludicrously over-bloated Live version. So for most of you, this will be a loss of 0% attack speed right now. If we didn't nerf this here, there is a 100% chance we would have nerfed it later (and we still might have to, even at these numbers, when we get to a fix for Thrown weapon animations). So, we might as well put them in the ballpark of numbers that could be balanced in the future.
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    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  13. #13
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Most of the shiradi procs are listed as scaling with 200% ranged power and all notation to spell power scaling was removed with 48.4, but actual game play indicates the shiradi procs scale with 200% ranged power x spellpower. Return of the Undead Shiradi Sorc (ddo.com)

    Can you clarify if this is working as intended and whether it will remain this way with U51?
    Last edited by slarden; 06-15-2021 at 04:41 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Extraordinarily disappointing.

    1) Per the description, Pin has been gutted: now only actually pinning one target and now only on a critical hit and now only for 3 seconds. A three second slow is pathetic, a 3 second pin isn't much better. I assume the wording is meant to indicate that it no longer benefits from Improved Precise Shot. Compare with live where pin actually pins all targets that are hit for 18 seconds. Major degradation to CC.

    2) Stay Frosty is gone? Even more degradation to CC tools.

    3) Prism - I assume double rainbow is going to have the same muted and weak set of effects as it does now on live.

    4) Ranged power from cores drops from 60 (10/core x6) to 18 (6/core x3).

    5) There is no replacement offered for the loss of Favorable Winds which over the cores gave 7% chance to deal 10d10 additional sonic damage and 7% chance to deal 2d100 extra force damage.

    This is a disaster for physical ranged characters that used Shiradi. In a different reality where you weren't level gating the progression, these changes would already look like a major performance degradation. When you combine it with level gating and we're limited from using tools like nerve venom and hunt's end until level 30?

    I generally try to keep these things in perspective - I praise when I see good things and try not to get hung up in ranting about negatives. I'm sorry, but this looks like garbage to me.
    Last edited by hit_fido; 06-15-2021 at 05:30 PM.

  15. #15
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    whirling wrists is 1/2 what it was and the doubleshot % is gone ...

    also why turn healing spring which was a nice 5 minute HOT into a vigor to compete with the spell vigor ? and trigger on 1 Wild Empathy Charge?

    Couldn't you fix wild empathy to be like aura of menace but instead of debuffing it just made any animals entering it neutral or friendly? Bring it in line with what its actually supposed to do for a ranger - and have it trigger automatically without charges - rather than using them as some sort of heal - having a heal HOT is thematic for a prestige class based on the Fey. This seems like a very convaluted and confusing change that thematically makes no sense
    Last edited by Dark_Lord_Mary; 06-15-2021 at 05:50 PM.

  16. #16

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    Whirling wrists 60% -> 30%

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Yep. To be honest, because of the animation capping problems, most throwers aren't even getting the majority of the ludicrously over-bloated Live version. So for most of you, this will be a loss of 0% attack speed right now. If we didn't nerf this here, there is a 100% chance we would have nerfed it later (and we still might have to, even at these numbers, when we get to a fix for Thrown weapon animations). So, we might as well put them in the ballpark of numbers that could be balanced in the future.
    Because of capping problems most thrower builds could drop alacrity items, haste boosts to counteract doubleshot nerf - attack speed was covered so they could get a gain somewhere else. Now apparently they need to wear those items back because another nerf. So apparently it's time for shuriken builds to sniff flowers the wrong side

    Oh, and you took Executioner strike/shot too...
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    Agreed with posters above. You removed both the 7% sonic damage and 7% force damage procs, that's a huge nerf to damage that already wasn't that high.

    Procs need to scale on both either spellpower or ranged power. It makes no sense to have this be a ranged and a casting tree, but force casters into gearing for ranged power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Feywild Attunement: You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot range.
    This is nice, but kinda removes the need to play lv 20 Deepwood.

  19. #19
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    Add my voice to those saying Pin is underpowered, Stay Frosty is noticeably missing, Prism sucks outside of Nerve Venom (and that's only 30+), and Hunts End needs to be a foundational ability in the tree, not locked in the highest tier.

    Lights seems way way stronger than Pin. Its basically an ED version of Greater Color Spray in FI...three saves for CC, including a Fort save for Stun, in a cone, on a short CD. Considering Pin only does Immobilize, on one target, and only on a failed save....yeah that seems way better. Plus you can cast it to build charges without needing to actually hit a mob, like with Pin.

    Dodge is cheap at cap, especially for ranged builds that are going to be T5 Shiradi. Make it Dodge Cap bonus.

    Can Pierce Deception grant the bonus +5% Doubleshot if you have ANY other source of auto-search, not just the Watchful Eye feat? Elf, Inqui, etc. also offer the same effect.
    Last edited by droid327; 06-15-2021 at 07:43 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Yep. To be honest, because of the animation capping problems, most throwers aren't even getting the majority of the ludicrously over-bloated Live version. So for most of you, this will be a loss of 0% attack speed right now. If we didn't nerf this here, there is a 100% chance we would have nerfed it later (and we still might have to, even at these numbers, when we get to a fix for Thrown weapon animations). So, we might as well put them in the ballpark of numbers that could be balanced in the future.
    The main gripe I have here is that throwers no longer get that bump that suddenly made them feel viable as soon as they hit epics.

    Leveling a thrower is a slog in heroics compared to other ranged options.
    Whirling Wrists is a huge part of what made it feel like it wasn't a slog anymore.
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