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  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Greetings! This is a pretty crazy read, so buckle up!

    Epic Destinies
    We are going to fully revamp the ED structure from the ground up to provide a cohesive leveling experience from levels 20-30 and beyond. The new structure will resemble heroic Enhancements - 6 cores along the bottom and 5 tiers reaching to the top. However, there are some notable differences and similarities to the old ED structure:

    You can now be in a maximum of 3 Epic Destinies at a time. Think of it like the current Enhancement window, but without any ability to scroll horizontally along trees. You select up to three trees at a time, socketing them into place in your ED window, just as you select your Heroic Enhancement Trees. You can spend points freely between these three trees, and resetting your ED points out of a tree will allow you to choose a new one.

    As you level up beyond level 20, you will earn Destiny Points that you can spend in these ED trees. Epic Levels now display their experience in Ranks, just like Heroic levels do. Each point is earned at each Rank of an Epic Level, which means that each Epic Level corresponds to 4 Destiny Points. The 5th rank of each Epic Level is the level itself, as it is in Heroics. This means that you'll earn Destiny Points at a steady rate rather than in large chunks every 5 ranks.

    Each Epic Destiny ability in the new Destiny system has a destiny point requirement as well as a level requirement - just like heroic enhancements do - so you can't jump right to the end at level 20 or without spending the requisite points up the tree. The Level and AP requirements are as follows:

    Core 1: Level 20, 0 AP
    Core 2: Level 23, 5 AP
    Core 3: Level 26, 10 AP
    Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.

    Tier 1: Level 20, 0 AP
    Tier 2: Level 20, 5 AP
    Tier 3: Level 23, 10 AP
    Tier 4: Level 26, 20 AP
    Tier 5: Level 30, 30 AP (you may only be in one Tier 5 at a time)

    You'll notice that the tiers and cores don't exactly match Heroic enhancement trees, and we'll get to that in a moment.

    These new ED trees are a mix of the old ED abilities and brand new ones, providing a huge variety of options to players both familiar with our current EDs and hungry for new exciting abilities. As we examine just what made the old Epic Destinies compelling, we're able to make sweeping changes to themes and designs to better support the widest range of available play. You'll see familiar abilities in unfamiliar places, new abilities in the places of old ones, and a lot of radical changes to bring the entire Destiny system together into more of a cohesive whole. We'll have a separate post about the general design notes of the new trees so you can examine the changes in more detail before diving into the trees themselves.

    Unlocking Trees
    Assuming you've never been in epics before, when you reach level 20, you will be directed to the Fatespinner and a new public area accessible from her dialogue. This area will contain NPCs that correspond to each Destiny. Speak to those NPCs to unlock the destiny for this character permanently. This NPC will give you a description of the playstyles that the tree supports, as well as serve a small part in a new, lightweight tutorial. Once you have done this once on a character, you will not need to do it again. This is just a way for us to vector new players to the Epic gameplay loop into a space that can give them a bit of an aesthetical introduction to our Epic game.

    If you have at least one character before this overhaul that has fully capped all of their Epic Destinies, you will receive an exclusive Cloak featuring the now-deprecated Starmap to commemorate your achievement.

    Unlocking a tree in the new system also provides +2 Fate Points per tree, which means that a brand new character reaching 20 for the first time will begin with 24 Fate Points.

    Fate Points
    There are no more Twists of Fate in this system - as players are able to branch out across up to three trees - but Fate Points still have a use. Every 3 Fate Points you've earned will contribute to 1 Permanent Destiny Point in the Epic Destiny Trees. These points are available at level 20 and can be freely spent between the trees you have slotted. If this is your first time in Epics, you will begin with a bare minimum of 24 Fate Points (from unlocking the 12 currently available trees), which means you'll start level 20 with 8 Permanent Destiny Points. This Permanent Destiny Point system is where we recapture the currently-frontloaded Destiny flow and allows us to offer playstyle-defining elements right out of the gate. The first two tiers of each tree are accessible at level 20, so you'll have quite a bit of choice and power at the start.

    Fate Points also grant +2 Hitpoints and +1 Spellpoints each, starting at level 20.

    You earn Fate Points in a variety of ways - from the Tomes of Fate currently available, from Epic Past Lives at the ratio of 3 Epic Past Lives to 1 Fate Point (which is an improvement, compared to 4:1 as it is currently), and from unlocking Destinies in the new system. You will no longer receive bonus Fate Points at levels 29 and 30.

    The current maximum Fate Points is 43: 24 from unlocking trees + 16 from Epic Past Lives + 3 from a Tome of Fate. This means that you will start with up to 14 Permanent Destiny Points from Fate at level 20 (+1 extra Fate Point).

    Epic Reincarnation
    Rather than requiring Karma, Epic Reincarnation simply allows a player at level 30+ to take the Epic Past life of your choice and return to level 20.

    Epic Completionist, rather than granting a Twist of Fate slot, will instead grant a flat +1 Destiny Action Point. You will also earn additional copies of Epic Completionist every 12 Epic Past Lives you earn thereafter. This means that a player with 24 Epic Past Lives will start with 2 copies of Epic Completionist, and will be able to earn 2 more as they reach the 48 total Epic Past Lives. A player with all 48 will have 4 copies of Epic Completionist, for a total of +4 Permanent Destiny Points.

    This means that a player with Epic Completionist, all Epic Past Lives, the Tome of Destiny from Feywild, a +3 Tome of Fate, and all unlocked Destiny Trees, will begin level 20 with 19 Permanent Destiny Points (14 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).

    Epic XP, Epic Destiny XP, and Karma
    Although you may have gleaned this from the above sections, just to make sure everyone is on the same page, there is no Epic Destiny XP or Karma in this new system. A player will not be required to level up in a destiny, or earn XP in a destiny, to unlock new trees or reincarnate. The base 12 destinies will be unlocked at level 20 via a simple tutorial (see the Unlocking Trees header for information) and reincarnation will no longer require Karma to complete (see the Epic Reincarnation header for information).

    This means that the only type of XP you need to worry about in Epics is Epic XP, which will be unchanged from how it is earned. Epic XP will be displayed on your XP Bar differently (by splitting each level up into Ranks so we can award points more often), but the amounts and totals needed to level up are unchanged from how they are currently.

    Leveling Up in Epics
    In order to address the backloaded feat flow and frontloaded enhancement flow, we are meeting in the middle for the new level-up experience for Epics.



    As you can see, we are moving the Destiny feat levels to follow directly after the Epic Feat levels. We are making an effort to ensure that every level in Epics gives a player some sort of choice or advancement. We want to smooth out the rate at which a player gains power considerably, which means we will be lowering the minimum levels of the Destiny feats.

    Epic and Destiny Feats
    Epic Destiny Feats no longer have Sphere requirements, as there are no more spheres. Instead, they will simply have level prerequisites.

    The level prerequisites of Destiny Feats have been changed. Whereas before a Destiny Feat would have a prerequisite for levels 26, 28, and 29, they will now follow the new acquisition level flow, moving to min level 22, 25, and 28 respectively.

    Several Epic and Destiny Feats have changed in functionality, as will be detailed in a separate post.
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  2. #2
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Known issues: Please read

    Please note, this is an early preview of the Epic Destiny revamp. As such, not all pieces of it are yet fully implemented. Most obviously, only 7 of the 12 Destinies are available in this preview but there are a number of smaller things that have yet to be implemented which includes:

    Not Yet Implemented
    • Epic Reincarnation has not been yet been updated to no longer require Karma. As such, Epic reincarnation is impossible in this early preview.
    • Epic Past Lives are not yet correctly granting their Fate Points in the revamped system.
    • Epic Completionist is not yet granting Permanent Destiny Points.
    • The Tome of Destiny does not yet grant a Permanent Destiny Point in the revamped system.
    • The Destiny Trainers in the Junction of Spheres have placeholder text in place of where they will eventually be telling you more about their particular Destiny.
    • Many Icons and ability visuals are not final.


    In addition there are a number of bugs that are currently present. The largest ones we currently are aware of are:

    Known Bugs
    • Examining characters copied from live still shows the Epic Destiny they were in with the old system
    • Can still swap the XP bar to show Epic Destiny XP and Karma which are now defunct.
    • Multiple SLA's are not taking into account Epic levels in their damage calculation
    • Multiple SLA's are not taking their Spell School DC bonuses
    • Legendary Dreadnought:
      • Dread only deals 1 Bane Damage in most circumstances
    • Primal Avatar:
      • Spell Power in the cores other than the first is currently not working.
      • Natural Shielding is only working on summoned creatures currently
      • Shared Mantle doesn't yet work
    • Shadowdancer:
      • Whispers doesn't yet work
      • Weird is not yet AOE
    • Shiradi Champion:
      • Step in the Wilds isn't granted until the first rest shrine of a dungeon.
      • Rainbow appears to override the base Prism ability score damage often.
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  3. #3
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default

    Post Reserved
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  4. #4
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    I do have an initial question. IF we start at level 20 with not having any benefit from ED trees until we earn points in them, wont that make epic questing starting at level 20 more difficult? I mean we start epic at 20, but playing an epic quest on elite is level 22, and reaper 1 a little harder.. Those first few epic levels can be difficult even with having a full ED tree right after hitting 20. I cant imagine what it will be like with no ED tree benefit until you earn it. Plus gear from level 20 to 28 isnt really that spectacular compared to named set items you get at 5, 10, 15, 17, 29. Yes there are fill in places like Catacombs some level 23 pieces, and The Twelve, but not really outstanding sets to put together until you reach 29.. So 15 gear carries many people to 29. Then i think of not benefiting from ED until you earn points.. Im curious to see how difficult the game will be.. We shall see.

    With all that being said. I do like the concept and look forward to testing this , as im here dancing in front of you now
    You are welcome to follow me on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/cmecu_grogerian OR https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL5...4Db-RhwMsZBedQ
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  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post


    The current maximum Fate Points is 43: 24 from unlocking trees + 16 from Epic Past Lives + 3 from a Tome of Fate. This means that you will start with up to 14 Permanent Destiny Points from Fate at level 20 (+1 extra Fate Point).

    So your saying current maximum is 43 Fate Points with everything unlocked?

    24 From unlocking trees
    16 Epcie Past Lives
    3 Tome of Fate
    1 where is the +1 tome of Destiny from Feywild expansion purchase?
    Equals 44
    +4 Destiny Points from 4x completionist?
    equals 48

    is this correct or are you saying 43 is the max possible?

  6. #6
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
    I do have an initial question. IF we start at level 20 with not having any benefit from ED trees until we earn points in them, wont that make epic questing starting at level 20 more difficult? I mean we start epic at 20, but playing an epic quest on elite is level 22, and reaper 1 a little harder.. Those first few epic levels can be difficult even with having a full ED tree right after hitting 20. I cant imagine what it will be like with no ED tree benefit until you earn it. Plus gear from level 20 to 28 isnt really that spectacular compared to named set items you get at 5, 10, 15, 17, 29. Yes there are fill in places like Catacombs some level 23 pieces, and The Twelve, but not really outstanding sets to put together until you reach 29.. So 15 gear carries many people to 29. Then i think of not benefiting from ED until you earn points.. Im curious to see how difficult the game will be.. We shall see.

    With all that being said. I do like the concept and look forward to testing this , as im here dancing in front of you now
    At level 20 you can gain a total of 24 Fate Points, which equals out to 8 Permanent Destiny Points (3/1 ratio) just by talking to all of the Destiny trainers, learning about their tree's, and unlocking them. Essentially, a completely fresh character reaching level 20 will still have points to spend in some destinies right off the bat. I will also point out that we've arranged the trees so that there is a fair bit of power in the first two tiers (which we've stopped from causing large splash power by having the mantles be mutually exclusive and the builders share a cooldown) to help make those early levels feel fun and powerful.
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  7. #7
    Community Member Itchybeard's Avatar
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    Question Quick Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Core 1: Level 20, 0 AP
    Core 2: Level 23, 5 AP
    Core 3: Level 26, 10 AP
    Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.

    Tier 1: Level 20, 0 AP
    Tier 2: Level 20, 5 AP
    Tier 3: Level 23, 10 AP
    Tier 4: Level 26, 20 AP
    Tier 5: Level 30, 30 AP (you may only be in one Tier 5 at a time)
    Minor nit-pick, but will they be labeled as AP or DP (Destiny Points)? Giving them a different acronym might help avoid later confusion down the road.

    All in all, I like what I'm seeing so far. I kinda miss Karma already :P Thank you for the continual hard work and salvaging our hard work over the years with the proposed ratios.
    >>>Itchybeard (Crafter), Greensmash (Main), All Others (Mules)<<<

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranthiel View Post
    So your saying current maximum is 43 Fate Points with everything unlocked?

    24 From unlocking trees
    16 Epcie Past Lives
    3 Tome of Fate
    1 where is the +1 tome of Destiny from Feywild expansion purchase?
    Equals 44
    +4 Destiny Points from 4x completionist?
    equals 48

    is this correct or are you saying 43 is the max possible?
    Trip completionst on everything. Logged in with 49 total fate points. after speaking to every one of the fate spinners. I ended up with 57 total points to spend. Not sure that is accurate. according to what was said(43 Max)




    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    Epic Completionist, rather than granting a Twist of Fate slot, will instead grant a flat +1 Destiny Action Point. You will also earn additional copies of Epic Completionist every 12 Epic Past Lives you earn thereafter. This means that a player with 24 Epic Past Lives will start with 2 copies of Epic Completionist, and will be able to earn 2 more as they reach the 48 total Epic Past Lives. A player with all 48 will have 4 copies of Epic Completionist, for a total of +4 Permanent Destiny Points.

    This means that a player with Epic Completionist, all Epic Past Lives, the Tome of Destiny from Feywild, a +3 Tome of Fate, and all unlocked Destiny Trees, will begin level 20 with 19 Permanent Destiny Points (14 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).
    So with the above picture, I should have 19 permanent destiny points according to this and not 13.

    So what is the actual max points that we will be able to spend at lvl 30 with everything unlocked/tomes used/and so on.
    Last edited by Cashiry; 06-15-2021 at 03:11 PM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Gniewomir's Avatar
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    The only question i have is why (now)? You released ED almost 10 years ago. There was plenty of time to make changes, but no changes has been made. And now suddenly, after 10 years, you change how entire system works. Why? Is it like after 10 years of thinking "thats such well designed system" you suddenly started to think "ed sucks, we have to revamp it entirely"? For the record, im being sarcastic, but i havent read entire thread nor additional threads and none of us know what changes will make it to the live servers, so who knows, maybe those changes will be good for game, i don't know. But thats not the first thing im thinking about right now. The first thing is why such dramatic revamp after 10 years of literally no changes to how ed works. Just for clarification: im not talking about changes in specific EDs (new skills etc.), but only about how the system works, cause you could easly modify EDs without revamping how they work.

    Edit: after reading a bit additional question: is ed revamp made only cause of raising lvl cap, to support it better without inventing new systems?
    Last edited by Gniewomir; 06-15-2021 at 02:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    If you have at least one character before this overhaul that has fully capped all of their Epic Destinies, you will receive an exclusive Cloak featuring the now-deprecated Starmap to commemorate your achievement.
    That's just having leveled up all 12 initially, right? (I'm pretty sure that's all that means, but having just read thru all of these 13 different threads, my brain is a bit fried)

  11. #11
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    Grats on a fantastic work. I like very much the approach and 99% of what I read, and for me it proves that some of the team still cares about the game and want to make it great again. Hats off, devs

    Now, couple insights on my side:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Fate Points also grant +2 Hitpoints and +1 Spellpoints each, starting at level 20.
    This seems aesthetic to me, is not goiing to change anything for an epic character and therefore won´t be noticiable. I´d rather do a ramp up, in way that fate points earned in a later stage provide more rewards that those earned early or granted by reaching level 20. Maybe you could also add meele, ranged and spell power in the bowl.

    --

    I am missing a solution to a current problem of the game, that is not addressed and it could be. There is no incentive to keep playing once you reach level 30, other than gearing up or wander off to shock awe yourself with your big numbers of whatever. I like very much that those destiny points are reset upon reincarnartion, so why not allow characters to continue earning them at level 30, maybe at a slower rate similar to reaper points? That way people would be able to play at 30 with a slight incentive to become more powerful before reincarnatiing, without hampering at all the new system.

    And again, thanks so much for the fantastic work. Keep it up, the game deserves it

    - Khorne

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranthiel View Post
    So your saying current maximum is 43 Fate Points with everything unlocked?

    24 From unlocking trees
    16 Epcie Past Lives
    3 Tome of Fate
    1 where is the +1 tome of Destiny from Feywild expansion purchase?
    Equals 44
    +4 Destiny Points from 4x completionist?
    equals 48

    is this correct or are you saying 43 is the max possible?
    You are missing that Fate Points and Destiny points are not the same.

    Max 43 Fate Points which give +14 Destiny Points. Add +4 Destiny Points from 4x Epic Compl and +1 Destiny Point from tome for +19 Destiny points.

    Further add 4 Destiny Points from 10 levels (4 per level) and the maximum is 59 Destiny Points.

    One tier 5 tree is 31+ points. Another tier 4 tree is 21+ leaving very few or no points for the 3rd tree.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    At level 20 you can gain a total of 24 Fate Points, which equals out to 8 Permanent Destiny Points (3/1 ratio) just by talking to all of the Destiny trainers, learning about their tree's, and unlocking them. Essentially, a completely fresh character reaching level 20 will still have points to spend in some destinies right off the bat. I will also point out that we've arranged the trees so that there is a fair bit of power in the first two tiers (which we've stopped from causing large splash power by having the mantles be mutually exclusive and the builders share a cooldown) to help make those early levels feel fun and powerful.
    Now that we won't have maxed destiny trees on level 20 characters, can you remove the restriction of entering heroic quests on reaper when 20+? I think the standard level lockout would be sufficient at that point.

  14. #14
    Community Member Bladedge's Avatar
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    Why not have Epic Feat 4 and ED Tier 5 at Level 29 seeing how it is the end of epic and Level 30 is the beginning of Legendary?

  15. #15
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    Putting all things into "Active" tab in Enhancement sheet makes us difficult to find what we learn is needed to bring onto the hotbar. Would you put them "Active (Epic Destiny)" separately?

    For example...

    [Active]
    > FvS Nimbus of Light
    > FvS Searing Light
    > FvS Cometfall
    > ...

    [Active (Epic Destiny)]
    > Mantle of Primal Avatar
    > Mantle of Fury of Wild
    > Builder of Primal Avatar
    > Builder of Fury of Wild
    > SLA of Primal Avatar
    > ....

    [Passive]
    > FvS things
    > Epic Destiny things
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  16. #16
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    Thank you for a good game.

  17. #17
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    Is there enough power in the lower tiers to overcome the absolute log jam of char power vs currently inflated mob HP that early epics contain?

    cast a fully meta'd fireball w/e in a non epic quest at 19 and do one again at 21. Its an entirely different animal. it goes from booom to pffft.

    The shift in mob difficulty from heroic to epic is too large atm, and especially so if it seems again as you've gated advancement to some of the top tier abilities that made us feel useful like Dragon Breath/Energy Burst.

    It really stinks to be playing a caster class that just seems to turn off at 20 b/c the bread and butter SLAs that carry through heriocs become fill ins and you feel like your swinging a purse at 5 paces.

    Is there any plan to address the huge gulf of difficulty at the transition of heroic to epic?
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  18. #18
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    Tier 5 at 30 level seems to be a bit over than common sense... I am not sure how I can describe my feeling about it. Tier 5 at 29 level please?
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  19. #19
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    Why do the cores need to be level-gated past L30? Especially if L30 is the benchmark for when you can ETR still?

    Scale the cores up to 30, that's fine..but 30+ should be like what 20+ is for Heroic enhancements, you have the full suite of options, including the capstones. You'll still earn more points to spend past 30, of course...just let us spend them on the ED capstones at 30.

  20. #20
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    Default “Key of Destiny” is now wasted : (

    The 995 points spent on the “Key of Destiny” is now wasted : (

    Or am I missing something?

    It looks I still get the benefit from my store micro-transactions for the “Tomes of Fate” but I see nothing for the points spent on the “Key of Destiny”.

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