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  1. #21
    Community Member Dejvid's Avatar
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    since we lost one questpack in our vip subscription, we should get a discount on vip itself.
    after all, its less content now, so why should i pay the same amount of money?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Whether VIPs should or shouldn't get mini-expansions for free doesn't matter. It seems clear we are moving to a paradigm where they don't. With that in mind, we should be pushing for what we can actually get.
    While it does seem like they are moving away from free content for everyone, let alone VIPs (a shame really), we can actually get everything asked for; in this and other threads on the topic. It depends on SSG and whether they want it to give us.

    Right now, they are choosing not to do anything for VIPs and they are losing more and more steady income with every VIP letting their sub lapse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Bump the Points reward up to 1k a month, offer VIPs a 5% to 10% discount on Store items. Exclude a small set of certain items from that discount, if discounted Shards would be too much. Perhaps offer VIP-Only sales every month that would boost the discount. Offer additional rewards for contiguous amounts of time as VIP.
    I suggested this in a different thread and while I may have gone overboard with what I was asking for, the sentiment is similar. Increasing VIP benefits for contiguous time really is a no-brainer and should have been done or, at least, discussed/thought about before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    But yeah, there is very little allowing VIPs to feel "very important" nowadays. Spoken as one VIP who is going to let theirs lapse instead of renew once my current cycle is up.
    +1 Memnir

    Exactly this. I, too, am letting my VIP lapse after this current cycle.
    In DDO terms, "[x] Pass" means "[x] Changes" not "[x] Improvements"


    THANK YOU SO MUCH

  3. #23
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salmag View Post
    While it does seem like they are moving away from free content for everyone, let alone VIPs (a shame really), we can actually get everything asked for; in this and other threads on the topic. It depends on SSG and whether they want it to give us.

    Right now, they are choosing not to do anything for VIPs and they are losing more and more steady income with every VIP letting their sub lapse.



    I suggested this in a different thread and while I may have gone overboard with what I was asking for, the sentiment is similar. Increasing VIP benefits for contiguous time really is a no-brainer and should have been done or, at least, discussed/thought about before.



    +1 Memnir

    Exactly this. I, too, am letting my VIP lapse after this current cycle.
    I feel like we will get what Lotro VIPs got with the mini expansion

    & I agree having a benefit increase over continued VIP time would help keep VIP subbed

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Human_Cypher View Post
    Every VIP subscriber should get a semi-annual foot massage from Severlin (either he hosts or you do). That should seal the deal for many players.

    This crowd can barely touch code without breaking something. I don't want them anywhere near my feet.

    DDO Devs are like 24hr Chiropractors with the neon signs in a dimly lit Times Square alley circa '85. Let them touch you at your own risk.

  5. #25
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    I feel like we will get what Lotro VIPs got with the mini expansion

    & I agree having a benefit increase over continued VIP time would help keep VIP subbed
    But the "learned their lesson" from the mistakes there. Yeah that was dripping sarcasm.

    Most of the VIP's I know have lapsed or will be when it is up and every single one of them is looing at the "mini-expansion" BS that SSG is trying to feed us as a major contributing factor, in many cases the only one though most are also looking at the last round of major caster nerfs that, once again affected peripheral builds far more forcefully than the intended targets. They were already strained with SSG's approach of carpet bombing the entire town trying to get one or two bad guys. Adding on the expectation that they pay for virtually all content on top of their VIP well that was enough to let it lapse. And worse for SSG in many cases it's letting it lapse and just walking away from the game with a "this isn't just a break" mindset while doing so. It's not "I am spending $100 a year less" it's more I am spending $0. For most of them that would be at least $300 - $500 for the year, in some cases much more.

    In my group, or at least the ones that I can still contact, we have found other games to play such as online boardgames and even building our own DM'd Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition games again. There's a very real chance this is a forever break for most of them.

    Personally the mini-expansion was 100% the reason I let my VIP go. I had re-upped because I approved of the direction but there is virtually NO value in VIP for me as I already own all the content via former Premium status. Expecting to pay like I was premium AND fork over an extra $10 a month for the privilege? yeah right.
    I wish i could press snowflakes in a book like flowers.
    Some people are like glow sticks. You just wanna snap 'em and then shake the heck out of them until the lights come on.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    But the "learned their lesson" from the mistakes there. Yeah that was dripping sarcasm.

    Most of the VIP's I know have lapsed or will be when it is up and every single one of them is looing at the "mini-expansion" BS that SSG is trying to feed us as a major contributing factor, in many cases the only one though most are also looking at the last round of major caster nerfs that, once again affected peripheral builds far more forcefully than the intended targets. They were already strained with SSG's approach of carpet bombing the entire town trying to get one or two bad guys. Adding on the expectation that they pay for virtually all content on top of their VIP well that was enough to let it lapse. And worse for SSG in many cases it's letting it lapse and just walking away from the game with a "this isn't just a break" mindset while doing so. It's not "I am spending $100 a year less" it's more I am spending $0. For most of them that would be at least $300 - $500 for the year, in some cases much more.

    In my group, or at least the ones that I can still contact, we have found other games to play such as online boardgames and even building our own DM'd Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition games again. There's a very real chance this is a forever break for most of them.

    Personally the mini-expansion was 100% the reason I let my VIP go. I had re-upped because I approved of the direction but there is virtually NO value in VIP for me as I already own all the content via former Premium status. Expecting to pay like I was premium AND fork over an extra $10 a month for the privilege? yeah right.
    Yeah, if all VIP is going to do is allow access to a subset of legacy content (still requiring you to buy expansions and mini-expansions), an xp boost, and a daily dice roll, you really have to question the value prop. the trick is, how do you add something to the VIP that doesn't cannibalize their other revenue streams, and also doesn't cost a bunch of additional dev/creative time?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    how do you add something to the VIP that doesn't cannibalize their other revenue streams, and also doesn't cost a bunch of additional dev/creative time?
    I just solved that in post #1 of this thread


    I am Awesomesauce!

  8. #28
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    But the "learned their lesson" from the mistakes there. Yeah that was dripping sarcasm.

    Most of the VIP's I know have lapsed or will be when it is up and every single one of them is looing at the "mini-expansion" BS that SSG is trying to feed us as a major contributing factor, in many cases the only one though most are also looking at the last round of major caster nerfs that, once again affected peripheral builds far more forcefully than the intended targets. They were already strained with SSG's approach of carpet bombing the entire town trying to get one or two bad guys. Adding on the expectation that they pay for virtually all content on top of their VIP well that was enough to let it lapse. And worse for SSG in many cases it's letting it lapse and just walking away from the game with a "this isn't just a break" mindset while doing so. It's not "I am spending $100 a year less" it's more I am spending $0. For most of them that would be at least $300 - $500 for the year, in some cases much more.

    In my group, or at least the ones that I can still contact, we have found other games to play such as online boardgames and even building our own DM'd Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition games again. There's a very real chance this is a forever break for most of them.

    Personally the mini-expansion was 100% the reason I let my VIP go. I had re-upped because I approved of the direction but there is virtually NO value in VIP for me as I already own all the content via former Premium status. Expecting to pay like I was premium AND fork over an extra $10 a month for the privilege? yeah right.
    I still want to know what they learned

  9. #29
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    Interesting things happening over at another of the MMO's I play on and off, DC Universe Online. They've recently announced that they now plan to make all content (quests and missions) free to everybody and are asking the community what they think VIP should look like to encourage people to either stay subbed or start subbing. I can't help but think that this is a better approach. Players get to experience the whole world whether they pay a penny or not and pay for various benefits that help them along on their journey. I can't help but think that this would be a better model.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    I just solved that in post #1 of this thread
    Giving away a basket of high demand store items is pretty much exactly what "cannibalizing other revenue streams" means

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitma View Post
    Interesting things happening over at another of the MMO's I play on and off, DC Universe Online. They've recently announced that they now plan to make all content (quests and missions) free to everybody and are asking the community what they think VIP should look like to encourage people to either stay subbed or start subbing. I can't help but think that this is a better approach. Players get to experience the whole world whether they pay a penny or not and pay for various benefits that help them along on their journey. I can't help but think that this would be a better model.
    Its the model most games use from go. They don't expect players to need a spreadsheet to refer to each time they think about joining an LFM in order to ensure they own the content first.

    Some which have done expansions sell the current expansion and maybe one expansion back. Everything else is free. No one is expected to pay for all 27 expansions in EverQuest for instance. 25 are free and players need to purchase the last 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  12. #32
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Giving away a basket of high demand store items is pretty much exactly what "cannibalizing other revenue streams" means
    Yeah thats the issue with this model. Cant make a QoL suggestion without infringing on how the game makes money. Its almost like the irritants are intentionally designed in, with the expectation that players either deal with it or buy their way past it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  13. #33
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    Yeah, if all VIP is going to do is allow access to a subset of legacy content (still requiring you to buy expansions and mini-expansions), an xp boost, and a daily dice roll, you really have to question the value prop. the trick is, how do you add something to the VIP that doesn't cannibalize their other revenue streams, and also doesn't cost a bunch of additional dev/creative time?
    how about you not charge for adventure packs by calling them mini-expansions? Their own numbers how that they make VERY good revenue off DDO players specifically. Why squeeze more our and risk that?

    OR if you really want to "charge" for it then you make it no more than 500 DDO points for a VIP. You basically claim 1 months of points for it. and chage the 2000 or 3000 you are planning to everyone else. That would work too.
    I wish i could press snowflakes in a book like flowers.
    Some people are like glow sticks. You just wanna snap 'em and then shake the heck out of them until the lights come on.

  14. #34
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    I still want to know what they learned
    Fully Unimpeded Corrupted Knowledge. All of it.
    Last edited by SiliconScout; 06-11-2021 at 10:31 PM.
    I wish i could press snowflakes in a book like flowers.
    Some people are like glow sticks. You just wanna snap 'em and then shake the heck out of them until the lights come on.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Giving away a basket of high demand store items is pretty much exactly what "cannibalizing other revenue streams" means
    What would that be? Do you really think giving away one wish a year is 'breaking the bank'? People need to move past the don't charge for mini-expansions lament. That's over. Coming up with proactive proposals instead of complaining could result in VIP actually being enhanced with at least some ideas from the player base. Or you can leave it all up to marketing then complain about how they didn't ask for players' input.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  16. #36
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    What would that be? Do you really think giving away one wish a year is 'breaking the bank'? People need to move past the don't charge for mini-expansions lament. That's over. Coming up with proactive proposals instead of complaining could result in VIP actually being enhanced with at least some ideas from the player base. Or you can leave it all up to marketing then complain about how they didn't ask for players' input.
    This! Seriously, people who use Otto’s Boxes and other high value store items don’t just use one. They aren’t cannibalizing anything. You’d be getting your first hit for free, so to speak. Except really it’s not free it’s 100 dollars a year. That’s not insignificant, and making it worth buying would make more people want to buy it.

  17. #37
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    This! Seriously, people who use Otto’s Boxes and other high value store items don’t just use one. They aren’t cannibalizing anything. You’d be getting your first hit for free, so to speak. Except really it’s not free it’s 100 dollars a year. That’s not insignificant, and making it worth buying would make more people want to buy it.
    I'd rather spend the $100 on 2 boxes if that's the "Draw".
    I wish i could press snowflakes in a book like flowers.
    Some people are like glow sticks. You just wanna snap 'em and then shake the heck out of them until the lights come on.

  18. #38
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    I'd rather spend the $100 on 2 boxes if that's the "Draw".
    That and the rest of the proposed suggestions, obviously. 4 +20 hearts, discounts on xpacs, a currency for unique cosmetics, etc. I swear people on this forum are the most deliberately obtuse on the whole internet.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    What would that be? Do you really think giving away one wish a year is 'breaking the bank'? People need to move past the don't charge for mini-expansions lament. That's over. Coming up with proactive proposals instead of complaining could result in VIP actually being enhanced with at least some ideas from the player base. Or you can leave it all up to marketing then complain about how they didn't ask for players' input.
    I've made a few specific proposals as to what additional VIP benefits could entail

    To wit: I dont think simply adding in more Store items is a good idea. That makes it purely transactional: there is a discrete value for VIP, you can calculate exactly how much its "worth" to you based on which items in the basket you're interested in. So that makes it a simple calculation...is it more worthwhile to subscribe, or to keep buying things a la carte? Few people will end up spending more for VIP than they were for the items themselves, it will mainly be people who end up spending less for that VIP model than they are right now. Its a high-risk, low-reward idea for SSG's monetization.

    What I'm suggesting is that VIP focus more on unique QOL improvements that arent available anywhere else except through VIP. Nothing that increases your actual potential power level, so no P2W, but things that make your gameplay faster and more convenient, or provide you additional utility that enhances your experience. Since they dont have an a la carte Store value, it becomes more about how much they're worth to you, and if that's worth paying the price for VIP. I think that will attract a lot more new subs, because its offering something that you can only get through subbing, and keeps all the other Store revenue streams untouched.

    Examples: Full time access to a sandbox server (ie with a Dojo) for playtesting. Rest XP (well what I'd actually suggest is Rest XP for everyone, and VIPs get it at an accelerated rate & increased max). Can accept and enter quests from their Quest Panel anywhere in town if they've already completed it once. Things like that are big conveniences that people might consider subbing for.

  20. #40
    Community Member Dejvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    What would that be? Do you really think giving away one wish a year is 'breaking the bank'? People need to move past the don't charge for mini-expansions lament. That's over. Coming up with proactive proposals instead of complaining could result in VIP actually being enhanced with at least some ideas from the player base. Or you can leave it all up to marketing then complain about how they didn't ask for players' input.
    but that is the issue. the "lament" about "mini expansions" (take a look at lotro: their latest u30 questpack costs 1.695 while the "mini expansion" costs 1.995 and guess what, you cannot buy 1.695 storepoints, only 1.600 and a smaller one to break even, so its the same 20$ they charge for the "mini expansion", and yes, you can farm the points, thats beside the point, i can win the lottery and get it for free for all that matters, its the way its handled!) is something the community should keep doing instead of resigning.

    you have to keep in mind that this game (and lotro) doubles, tripples, quadruples dipping on nearly EVERY aspect of the game. its worse then mobile games. monetizing everything (yes, you dont have to buy) not even korean games would dare.

    just think about what is monetized already. content, experience gain, inventory, raid resets, mounts, pets, cosmetics, difficulty settings, bank, straight up power (tomes), hirelings, even healing potions! in lotro you can even spend money to port back to your questgiver! *sigh*
    yes, you dont have to buy any of those, but thats beside the point! they offer all of this, and someone is buying that all in some form or another.

    and then seeing the community argueing about how much more experience gain the "new and improved" vip sub should get while at the same time losing a content pack so that it can be timegated behind a paywall is just...

    other games make either their content free and then give vip all the quality of life or "power" players want to make it actually worthwhile. or they make content the main reason to subscribe, but then all players are on the same equal footing.
    ddo and lotro do both. you have to pay for content, and for quality of life. and the more you pay, the better for you. this is exactly the reason why so many are fed up or simply wont join those games in the first place.

    i for one see absolutely no reason anymore to subscribe in lotro. and the sad thing is, the same applies now to ddo. (lag and technical issues are the main culprit though).

    but im a casual nowadays and not part of what this game has turned into, so whatever people like me say is of no value for this community anyways

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