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  1. #81
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    None of this answers the question

    What are you using to get that damage
    Not sure what you're asking then.
    If you mean build then the standard 11/6/3 thrower (I haven't played with bows yet so cant help there, but others have said its roughly similar to thrower), and nearly any decent melee build with endgame feywild or sharn family set + sentient keen raid weapon with prowess etc...

    If you mean damage rotation, for ranged it would be whatever (build dependent) clickies you have for ~4 attacks to stack dust followed by hunt's end + snipershot, for melee it would be haste boost + prowess + whichever dps abilities your class/build has.

    I don't have any current dps tests/calcs, but you can verify these numbers approximately with the discussions/dps tests that happened during the recent melee changes on the lamania forums, or watching any of the recently posted achievement thread videos and factoring out the reaper scaling.
    Thelanis

  2. #82
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Where are these R10 solo melee videos that make up the crux of Chai's argument? In virtually every R10 group I've been in THF melees die whenever either the A) mobs aren't CC'd in some way, either by casters or dire charge, or B) when the tank loses agro and scary Doom Reaper/Champion/Boss runs amok killing everything.
    Youtube in the past. Thanks to the developers penchant for nerfing things I have noticed they are almost now exclusively on Twitch Streams so they are harder to find.

    Everyone knows ranged was OP several years ago just as everyone knew sorcerers and alchemists were OP. Nerfs are almost always warranted. Now one could debate whether or not they should go as far as they do, and the original poster's question poses this - could IPS at least have 100% damage on the first mob hit. That's a reasonable question. It's not going to change, but it's reasonable. Stubbornly claiming Myth or ForumDDO while trying to pretend ranged combat didn't need adjustment isn't a response so much as it is nostalgia for days when you could blow up entire rooms with various bow builds. And I get it, I've already said the Great Terror was loads of fun.
    I missed the memo then. I literally started in 2010 and Ranged was a joke. It would get you booted from a raid and some groups at the time (along with low HP's) simply because you did less DPS. But hey, your talking about modern DDO aren't you?

    Hate to break it to you but the top DPS builds were still melee. Players did have more fun doing Ranged and maybe this is your problem. You are relating "fun" to "most powerful." Yes, Inquisitor was powerful. Yet look at the people who broke down their damage when they argued that IPS wans't the problem. Simply reducing their double shot and law dice would have brought them down closer to other builds of the time. Their last power being a Universal Tree has nothing to do with ranged vs. melee vs caster. There is real no way to balance that aspect. They, SSG, sold you some snake oil.

    And yet, the problem all these builds have is that they trivialize content. Doesn't Chai continually speak out about the hamster wheel? OP builds contribute to the hamster wheel because they encourage ultra zerg hero-play. This is again partially why Hardcore is so popular. Those are elements that are severely reigned in.
    Not going to argue about the "ultra zerg hero-play" because on the regular servers their is no punishment for dying. Even in r10, sorry, not sorry. I will also remind you that HC shouldn't be the META on the regular servers. Although the last two updates of nerfs were in preparing for HC including -20% in IPS. Again, you bought lots of snake oil and refuse to admit it.

    Of course, the flip side is "why can't we just have fun?" Well, what is fun? You might ask 50 DDO players and get 42 different answers.
    Ask 50 players and 42 already left the game. Quite literally what is happening. Summer already drives the player base down so no worries there. That's the cycle of the seasons. Its how many of those 42 players return in the fall. Will they still have that bitter taste of snake oil in their mouth?
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Youtube in the past. Thanks to the developers penchant for nerfing things I have noticed they are almost now exclusively on Twitch Streams so they are harder to find.
    Ohhh....so they don't exist. Gotcha. Wonder why that is?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    literally started in 2010 and Ranged was a joke. It would get you booted from a raid and some groups at the time (along with low HP's) simply because you did less DPS. But hey, your talking about modern DDO aren't you?
    Correct and has already been addressed in this thread ranged was buffed, buffed (buffed!!) until it dominated play. Honestly, even now in most R10 groups if you aren't the tank people ask you why you're a melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    to break it to you but the top DPS builds were still melee.
    But not really. Just because fighter god posts an on-paper build utilizing every past life, requires maintaining an absurd amount of short-term buffs, max reaper points, and reaper equipment bonus in the game doesn't make melee's the best. In fact, it shows the extremes melee must go to in order to be effective. And the post still admits it needs to be healed! Since all (yes, I'm going to go ahead and say effectively all) players can't achieve the requirements for this (and would still need healing anyway) a better option seems to accept -20% DPS and a lot more survivability, wouldn't you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    50 players and 42 already left the game. Quite literally what is happening
    Source? I mean you said quite literally so I assume you have that in front of you.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  4. #84
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Is anyone able to respond to the fact that

    1. Ranged’s best and frankly, only defence is by constantly jumping and moving away from enemies, kiting them across dungeons to the detriment of the rest of the group unless you’re with 5 other archers.

    2. There are a myriad of reasons why a ranged toon may not be able to kite well in many cases. Dungeon layouts are often incompatible with lining targets up for IPS. If you are hit by an enemy archer and get hamstrung you’ll quickly find yourself surrounded. If you’re hit by an enemy CC spell, you’re almost certain to die. If you are harried from dungeon alert, which in many dungeons which are so packed with mobs triggers upon alerting just one group of enemies, again you’re surrounded and dead very quick. Forget about trying to split up and handle two objectives in a party, you’ll get up to red alert with no ability to handle it.

    3. The ranged pass was meant to make a wider variety of ranged builds more viable, but pure ranger is still the only thing capable of making it work to any satisfactory degree, especially in Epic levels.

    4. Ranged has no worthwhile CC. Paralysis arrows leave enemies spread out and don’t even apply helplessness. You also have to sacrifice your ability to do already meagre damage in order to apply the paralysis effect with any degree of consistency. They were also nerfed in U49. There are no other ranged CC abilities. Melees have trips and stuns, casters have actual CC spells.

    5. In a diverse group with melees and casters and ranged, the ranged is operating at a fraction of their ability as both casters and melees want to have mobs packed together, and a ranged wants to avoid this at all costs. Their gameplay is fundamentally at odds with one another. Parties are better off with all ranged kiting and lining up, or all melees and casters, bunching things together and clearing through far quicker.

    6. IPS and line-based AoE are vastly inferior to cleaves, strikethrough, and AoE spells. They don’t work if two enemies are different sizes, and they don’t work if enemies are slightly higher than one other on stairs or ramps, which there is no shortage of in DDO.

    7. Despite claims to the contrary jumping backwards and kiting does not make you immune to all incoming damage. There are many attacks and spells which are entirely unavoidable, and with no other inherent defensive abilities ranged characters are hit far harder by these attacks than melees or casters who can enjoy medium or heavy armour and far more defences built into their class trees.

    8. Archer’s Focus is a borderline worthless stance since it requires you to stay standing in one place, negating your only line of defence. You regularly need to readjust your position in order to hit targets as they are always moving. In raids like THTH it is obviously better to use it, but you get AF very early on in heroic levelling and are unable to use it to any effect.

    9. The opportunity cost of IPS as a feat is far higher than other styles, requiring an 11 BAB. The absolute earliest you get it is at level 11. Level 12 if you are a non ranger with full BAB progression, and not until 15 or even 18 on anything else. Considering at level 1 THF, and Bsword/Daxe builds are able to hit more than 1 target at a time, and by level 3 or 5 casters and SWF are able to do the same. It does not matter if their single target is better, and it isn’t, if they can’t clear the massive packs of mobs that dominate all content released in the last ~5 years or more.

    10. Inquisitive pre nerf tried to make up for these many, many flaws with the ranged style by giving it outrageous DPS. This was clearly not a solution. The problems with ranged are more fundamental than a lack of DPS. Boosting it so high shifts it from grossly underperforming to overperforming.

    11. The solution to these problems should not be Horizon Walker.
    Last edited by Nugaot; 06-12-2021 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #85
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Not sure what you're asking then.
    If you mean build then the standard 11/6/3 thrower (I haven't played with bows yet so cant help there, but others have said its roughly similar to thrower), and nearly any decent melee build with endgame feywild or sharn family set + sentient keen raid weapon with prowess etc...

    If you mean damage rotation, for ranged it would be whatever (build dependent) clickies you have for ~4 attacks to stack dust followed by hunt's end + snipershot, for melee it would be haste boost + prowess + whichever dps abilities your class/build has.

    I don't have any current dps tests/calcs, but you can verify these numbers approximately with the discussions/dps tests that happened during the recent melee changes on the lamania forums, or watching any of the recently posted achievement thread videos and factoring out the reaper scaling.
    So what it really sounds like to me is that it’s this “whatever (build dependent) clickies for ~4 attacks to stack dust followed with hunts end + sniper shot” are over performing that’s where the nerfs needed to fall IPS should have been left alone

    Ranged needs to not be pigeonholed into this one trick pony burst archetype & have IPS nerfed just because some builds can stack up these attacks

    & limited to using dust such restrictions to playstyle to validate the nerfs

    You forgot to mention adrenaline for some reason

    My Artificer doesn’t have hunts end or sniper shot


    It was burst that was over performing when Monchers were popular & it’s still burst that’s over performing but instead of bringing burst down to where it should be IPS was nerfed instead
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 06-12-2021 at 07:50 AM.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    Myth!

    First, IPS does not require the same investment as THF builds. While it has several pre-reqs, none of them have an AOE component. Therefore, even if we applied your same/similar investment into same/similar role, that doesn’t work in this case AT ALL. One AOE focused ranged feat and 0 supporting enhancements compared to 3+ THF feats and several supporting enhancements. To use your passive aggressive statement: the logic really isn’t that hard to understand.

    Introducing IPS to ranged characters is providing the option to do some AOE damage; that is, it’s not meant to change their role or archetype.
    Just to be clear... Investments are similar though still in favor of THF for ease of getting.

    THF requires:
    -15 Strength
    ITHF requires:
    -THF
    -17 Strength
    -6 BAB
    GTHF requires:
    -THF
    -ITHF
    -17 Strength
    -11 BAB

    THF gets an automatic STRIKETHROUGH chance (60% IIRC), which can be taken at 1 BAB. So they are basically dealing AOE from level 1.

    IPS requires:
    -19 Dexterity
    -Point Blank Shot
    -Precise Shot
    -11 BAB

    Minimum level 11 (if not Ranger or Fighter, this minimum level is higher) to get LOE (not AOE). If kiting, this LOE is easier to obtain (it also obtains the other party members ire a lot easier). If not kiting, LOE is useless.

    "To use your passive aggressive statement: the logic really isn’t that hard to understand."

    Summary
    THF = 60% AOE chance at level 1.
    IPS = LOE chance at (minimum) level 11. LOE useless if not kiting.

    Back on OPs topic:
    -I stand firm on the fact IPS never should have been nerfed for all ranged characters just because Inquisitive overperformed. NEVER.
    -The Devs will NEVER admit they were wrong and messed up by nerfing IPS; hence, they will not undo their mistake.
    -The OP does offer a viable alternative to address some of this nerf. however, the Devs will NEVER admit they were wrong and messed up, so the odds of this happening is "slim to none."
    -Wait until Horizon Walker shows up. Pay to access it. Range combat might offer different options (not stating they'll be better, just different). IPS will still be nerfed, though.
    -Remember that just because they are doing a "pass" does not mean they are improving anything; they're just making changes.

    oh well.
    In DDO terms, "[x] Pass" means "[x] Changes" not "[x] Improvements"


    THANK YOU SO MUCH

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    Is anyone able to respond to the fact that

    1. Ranged’s best and frankly, only defence is by constantly jumping and moving away from enemies, kiting them across dungeons to the detriment of the rest of the group unless you’re with 5 other archers.

    2. There are a myriad of reasons why a ranged toon may not be able to kite well in many cases. Dungeon layouts are often incompatible with lining targets up for IPS. If you are hit by an enemy archer and get hamstrung you’ll quickly find yourself surrounded. If you’re hit by an enemy CC spell, you’re almost certain to die. If you are harried from dungeon alert, which in many dungeons which are so packed with mobs triggers upon alerting just one group of enemies, again you’re surrounded and dead very quick. Forget about trying to split up and handle two objectives in a party, you’ll get up to red alert with no ability to handle it.

    3. The ranged pass was meant to make a wider variety of ranged builds more viable, but pure ranger is still the only thing capable of making it work to any satisfactory degree, especially in Epic levels.

    4. Ranged has no worthwhile CC. Paralysis arrows leave enemies spread out and don’t even apply helplessness. You also have to sacrifice your ability to do already meagre damage in order to apply the paralysis effect with any degree of consistency. They were also nerfed in U49. There are no other ranged CC abilities. Melees have trips and stuns, casters have actual CC spells.

    5. In a diverse group with melees and casters and ranged, the ranged is operating at a fraction of their ability as both casters and melees want to have mobs packed together, and a ranged wants to avoid this at all costs. Their gameplay is fundamentally at odds with one another. Parties are better off with all ranged kiting and lining up, or all melees and casters, bunching things together and clearing through far quicker.

    6. IPS and line-based AoE are vastly inferior to cleaves, strikethrough, and AoE spells. They don’t work if two enemies are different sizes, and they don’t work if enemies are slightly higher than one other on stairs or ramps, which there is no shortage of in DDO.

    7. Despite claims to the contrary jumping backwards and kiting does not make you immune to all incoming damage. There are many attacks and spells which are entirely unavoidable, and with no other inherent defensive abilities ranged characters are hit far harder by these attacks than melees or casters who can enjoy medium or heavy armour and far more defences built into their class trees.

    8. Archer’s Focus is a borderline worthless stance since it requires you to stay standing in one place, negating your only line of defence. You regularly need to readjust your position in order to hit targets as they are always moving. In raids like THTH it is obviously better to use it, but you get AF very early on in heroic levelling and are unable to use it to any effect.

    9. The opportunity cost of IPS as a feat is far higher than other styles, requiring an 11 BAB. The absolute earliest you get it is at level 11. Level 12 if you are a non ranger with full BAB progression, and not until 15 or even 18 on anything else. Considering at level 1 THF, and Bsword/Daxe builds are able to hit more than 1 target at a time, and by level 3 or 5 casters and SWF are able to do the same. It does not matter if their single target is better, and it isn’t, if they can’t clear the massive packs of mobs that dominate all content released in the last ~5 years or more.

    10. Inquisitive pre nerf tried to make up for these many, many flaws with the ranged style by giving it outrageous DPS. This was clearly not a solution. The problems with ranged are more fundamental than a lack of DPS. Boosting it so high shifts it from grossly underperforming to overperforming.

    11. The solution to these problems should not be Horizon Walker.
    +1

    You summed it up quite nicely.

    There will be some people on here though that will attempt to refute this. Those people are blowing smoke up their own @$$#$.
    In DDO terms, "[x] Pass" means "[x] Changes" not "[x] Improvements"


    THANK YOU SO MUCH

  8. #88
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    So what it really sounds like to me is that it’s this “whatever (build dependent) clickies for ~4 attacks to stack dust followed with hunts end + sniper shot” are over performing that’s where the nerfs needed to fall IPS should have been left alone

    Ranged needs to not be pigeonholed into this one trick pony burst archetype & have IPS nerfed just because some builds can stack up these attacks

    & limited to using dust such restrictions to playstyle to validate the nerfs

    You forgot to mention adrenaline for some reason

    My Artificer doesn’t have hunts end or sniper shot


    It was burst that was over performing when Monchers were popular & it’s still burst that’s over performing but instead of bringing burst down to where it should be IPS was nerfed instead
    I entirely agree with this. The issue is that most ranged players wouldn't. Big numbers are more 'fun' than a passive 20% AOE damage.

    Also, I didn't forget about adrenaline, I believe it was overbuffed. Its also less damage than hunt's end, single target only, difficult to target specific mobs, and still takes time to get in range.

    If it were up to me, different ranged styles would play completely differently. Throwers or bows could be the hunt's end sniper type, xbows could be full IPS damage, etc... but that would be another overhaul of ranged builds and I just don't see that happening any time soon.
    What if hunt's end was treated as a rage attack (similar to adrenaline) and IPS prevented rage (similar to defensive stances)?
    Thelanis

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    Is anyone able to respond to the fact that

    1. Ranged’s best and frankly, only defence is by constantly jumping and moving away from enemies, kiting them across dungeons to the detriment of the rest of the group unless you’re with 5 other archers.
    Yup.
    2. There are a myriad of reasons why a ranged toon may not be able to kite well in many cases. Dungeon layouts are often incompatible with lining targets up for IPS. If you are hit by an enemy archer and get hamstrung you’ll quickly find yourself surrounded. If you’re hit by an enemy CC spell, you’re almost certain to die. If you are harried from dungeon alert, which in many dungeons which are so packed with mobs triggers upon alerting just one group of enemies, again you’re surrounded and dead very quick. Forget about trying to split up and handle two objectives in a party, you’ll get up to red alert with no ability to handle it.
    Yup.
    3. The ranged pass was meant to make a wider variety of ranged builds more viable, but pure ranger is still the only thing capable of making it work to any satisfactory degree, especially in Epic levels.
    Not sure about this as I've stopped playing since U49 but in theory the idea is to bake it all into the obligatory ranged feats so that you could, in theory, whack ranged onto other classes (pally, fvs, cleric probably - so mostly melee framework) by then latching a universal tree onto it, cos, you know, we all want to be in a dps numbers game
    4. Ranged has no worthwhile CC. Paralysis arrows leave enemies spread out and don’t even apply helplessness. You also have to sacrifice your ability to do already meagre damage in order to apply the paralysis effect with any degree of consistency. They were also nerfed in U49. There are no other ranged CC abilities. Melees have trips and stuns, casters have actual CC spells.
    Yup. Oh, no, hamstring and shiradi nerve venom...with lower proc rates of course!
    5. In a diverse group with melees and casters and ranged, the ranged is operating at a fraction of their ability as both casters and melees want to have mobs packed together, and a ranged wants to avoid this at all costs. Their gameplay is fundamentally at odds with one another. Parties are better off with all ranged kiting and lining up, or all melees and casters, bunching things together and clearing through far quicker.
    Yup.
    6. IPS and line-based AoE are vastly inferior to cleaves, strikethrough, and AoE spells. They don’t work if two enemies are different sizes, and they don’t work if enemies are slightly higher than one other on stairs or ramps, which there is no shortage of in DDO.
    Yup. and depending on your choice of race too (halfling and gnome anyone?!)
    7. Despite claims to the contrary jumping backwards and kiting does not make you immune to all incoming damage. There are many attacks and spells which are entirely unavoidable, and with no other inherent defensive abilities ranged characters are hit far harder by these attacks than melees or casters who can enjoy medium or heavy armour and far more defences built into their class trees.
    Yup. This is the least problematic imo since melee should have higher defences in general but the loss of paralyzing arrows really hurts here.
    8. Archer’s Focus is a borderline worthless stance since it requires you to stay standing in one place, negating your only line of defence. You regularly need to readjust your position in order to hit targets as they are always moving. In raids like THTH it is obviously better to use it, but you get AF very early on in heroic levelling and are unable to use it to any effect.
    Since aggro m'ment is so important for ranged I keep it on just to avoid pi**ing off the mobs!
    9. The opportunity cost of IPS as a feat is far higher than other styles, requiring an 11 BAB. The absolute earliest you get it is at level 11. Level 12 if you are a non ranger with full BAB progression, and not until 15 or even 18 on anything else. Considering at level 1 THF, and Bsword/Daxe builds are able to hit more than 1 target at a time, and by level 3 or 5 casters and SWF are able to do the same. It does not matter if their single target is better, and it isn’t, if they can’t clear the massive packs of mobs that dominate all content released in the last ~5 years or more.
    It is a late bloomer but don't see this as a main problem. Yes, dealing with large groups of skeletons in Korthos did give me ptsd though!
    10. Inquisitive pre nerf tried to make up for these many, many flaws with the ranged style by giving it outrageous DPS. This was clearly not a solution. The problems with ranged are more fundamental than a lack of DPS. Boosting it so high shifts it from grossly underperforming to overperforming.
    Yup. Why we needed build diversity from the bow pass but instead we got...lag reduction?!

    11. The solution to these problems should not be Horizon Walker.
    Yup.

    Answers in bold.
    Monkey Archer (sic!) does have some valid points but they seem to all be based on thrower builds - what's an average longbow user's current qol iyo?
    Forum discussions of melee vs. caster vs. ranged are imo moot; not only are they supposed to have differences but it should be their effectiveness vs. content that should be considered! Also discussions based on 'stars aligned', R10, mine is bigger that yours, etc. discussions don't help the game in general...SSG, give us a flippin' balance benchmark and stick to it please! Oh, and make sure it doesn't account for Hardcore or Reaper! Ty.
    While you're at it, give (back) the opportunity to create a longbow user that doesn't have to only count how many dps beans it has. Falconry is fun but ineffective on its own and Horizon Walker had better not be a must-have for bow users or all those yelling at you for propping the bow pass up on it will, sadly, have been right all along...
    I'll probably bore anyone that has read my thoughts on the issue in the past but the bow pass paired with the proc nerf is larger than the sum of its parts.

  10. #90
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    I entirely agree with this. The issue is that most ranged players wouldn't. Big numbers are more 'fun' than a passive 20% AOE damage.

    Also, I didn't forget about adrenaline, I believe it was overbuffed. Its also less damage than hunt's end, single target only, difficult to target specific mobs, and still takes time to get in range.

    If it were up to me, different ranged styles would play completely differently. Throwers or bows could be the hunt's end sniper type, xbows could be full IPS damage, etc... but that would be another overhaul of ranged builds and I just don't see that happening any time soon.
    What if hunt's end was treated as a rage attack (similar to adrenaline) and IPS prevented rage (similar to defensive stances)?

    I prefer to have consistency in damage with less spikes & less attacks to cycle thru

    Buff nerf buff nerf that’s the cycle things come out despite feedback on Lama then after live play things get balanced again months or years laters.

  11. #91
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    Myth!
    Nope. Fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    First, IPS does not require the same investment as THF builds.
    IPS requires MORE investment. Higher stat req. Longer waiting period to obtain. More pre-reqs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    While it has several pre-reqs, none of them have an AOE component. Therefore, even if we applied your same/similar investment into same/similar role, that doesn’t work in this case AT ALL. One AOE focused ranged feat and 0 supporting enhancements compared to 3+ THF feats and several supporting enhancements. To use your passive aggressive statement: the logic really isn’t that hard to understand.
    Thanks, you just countered your own position and made my argument for me. The fact that it does NOT require an AOE component means taking stuff you're not even using when using IPS. In other news, all of the THF feats and other strikethrough bonus stack with each other. You get to start AOEing at level 1 with THF. IPS is level 11 if bab 20. 3/4 bab need to wait til 15.

    You are also comparing investing in something that improves with each feat taken, vs needing to invest in single target just to get the AOE ability. Not only does ranged require more investment, it has to choose between the things it needed to take in their feat load out, while THF is using the entire chain all day every day, even on Sunday.

    Another little fun fact: THF still holds its own on single target DPS situations, even when fully invested in AOE DPS. I'd love to see the circus-of-hilarity that would ensue if they nerfed THF single target DPS by a blanket -20% the same way they nerfed IPS by 20% and then used the same logic, saying things like "its not your intended role so we balanced you" and "Just because you have the option to only hit one target doesn't mean that we intended you to fill that role."

    Orville Redenbacher stock would split twice in the same week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    Introducing IPS to ranged characters is providing the option to do some AOE damage; that is, it’s not meant to change their role or archetype.
    That's just parsing words and lawyering terms at this point. Option to do AOE damage which was not previously available = option to change role if desired. Water makes things wet, and the sky is blue on a clear sunny day.

    Before gaining IPS ranged characters could not fill the AOE role. After gaining IPS they can fill the AOE role. Therefore we must logically conclude that ranged gaining IPS was meant to give them the option to change their role when desired.

    No amount of verbal fencing changes this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    the logic really isn’t that hard to understand.
    It really isn't.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-12-2021 at 05:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  12. #92
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    I’ll only respond to a few of your comments since clearly we agree already.

    Quote Originally Posted by ned_ellis View Post
    Not sure about this as I've stopped playing since U49 but in theory the idea is to bake it all into the obligatory ranged feats so that you could, in theory, whack ranged onto other classes (pally, fvs, cleric probably - so mostly melee framework) by then latching a universal tree onto it, cos, you know, we all want to be in a dps numbers game
    Well I haven’t tried every type of non-ranger archer I have tried a Favored Soul archer and a Wizard iconic archer. Both took 6 Ranger levels for the free feats since they are mandatory on a bow build. Neither is very good at anything, which is a shame. The most exciting prospect of U49, to me, was opening up the possibility of the divine archer. It was consistently stated that bow changes were meant to stand alone from Horizon Walker.

    Quote Originally Posted by ned_ellis View Post
    Yup. This is the least problematic imo since melee should have higher defences in general but the loss of paralyzing arrows really hurts here.
    No disagreement here, ranged’s defenses should be behind melee of course. They should get at least something that isn’t just based on movement since as stated it falls short in many circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by ned_ellis View Post
    It is a late bloomer but don't see this as a main problem. Yes, dealing with large groups of skeletons in Korthos did give me ptsd though!
    I feel this understates just how bad IPS and its high requirements are. It’s far beyond just Korthos. All 1-10 content is done without IPS. This is over 200 quests according to the wiki, including the Slavers chain, Feywild, WPM, and some of Ravenloft, just to name a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by ned_ellis View Post
    SSG, give us a flippin' balance benchmark and stick to it please!.
    This! Knowing where the balancing point is meant to be would make it so much better for expressing feedback when Lamannia previews are up.

  13. #93
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salmag View Post
    Just to be clear... Investments are similar though still in favor of THF for ease of getting.

    THF requires:
    -15 Strength
    ITHF requires:
    -THF
    -17 Strength
    -6 BAB
    GTHF requires:
    -THF
    -ITHF
    -17 Strength
    -11 BAB

    THF gets an automatic STRIKETHROUGH chance (60% IIRC), which can be taken at 1 BAB. So they are basically dealing AOE from level 1.

    IPS requires:
    -19 Dexterity
    -Point Blank Shot
    -Precise Shot
    -11 BAB

    Minimum level 11 (if not Ranger or Fighter, this minimum level is higher) to get LOE (not AOE). If kiting, this LOE is easier to obtain (it also obtains the other party members ire a lot easier). If not kiting, LOE is useless.

    "To use your passive aggressive statement: the logic really isn’t that hard to understand."

    Summary
    THF = 60% AOE chance at level 1.
    IPS = LOE chance at (minimum) level 11. LOE useless if not kiting.

    Back on OPs topic:
    -I stand firm on the fact IPS never should have been nerfed for all ranged characters just because Inquisitive overperformed. NEVER.
    -The Devs will NEVER admit they were wrong and messed up by nerfing IPS; hence, they will not undo their mistake.
    -The OP does offer a viable alternative to address some of this nerf. however, the Devs will NEVER admit they were wrong and messed up, so the odds of this happening is "slim to none."
    -Wait until Horizon Walker shows up. Pay to access it. Range combat might offer different options (not stating they'll be better, just different). IPS will still be nerfed, though.
    -Remember that just because they are doing a "pass" does not mean they are improving anything; they're just making changes.

    oh well.
    IPS’s requirements are actually even higher than just the actual feat requirements.

    THF needs:
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Power Attack or Precision
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 5 absolutely necessary feats. This leaves every class with room for 2 other feats.

    Ranged needs
    Rapid Shot
    Precise Shot
    Point Blank Shot
    Manyshot
    IPS
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 6 absolutely necessary feats, leaving room for just one free slot to take something else. Alternatively you must take 6/11 levels of Ranger to get some of them as free feats, giving up cores 5 and 6 in class trees and potentially making your main class Ranger for TR purposes.

  14. #94
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    IPS’s requirements are actually even higher than just the actual feat requirements.

    THF needs:
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Power Attack or Precision
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 5 absolutely necessary feats. This leaves every class with room for 2 other feats.

    Ranged needs
    Rapid Shot
    Precise Shot
    Point Blank Shot
    Manyshot
    IPS
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 6 absolutely necessary feats, leaving room for just one free slot to take something else. Alternatively you must take 6/11 levels of Ranger to get some of them as free feats, giving up cores 5 and 6 in class trees and potentially making your main class Ranger for TR purposes.
    True, and when do you start hitting multiple targets based on feats gained in either strategy?

    Melee- you can hit two in a swing with 2HF- not every time perhaps, but you start. (Which makes sense considering the size of the weapon) number limited by strike-through (max 3 per swing) and proximity.
    Ranged- only when you take IPS do you start hitting multiple targets if they line up, and then only after sacrificing 20% damage. Number limited by congaline.

    If horizon walker adds in a +20% bonus to IPS Ranged damage...
    Well, I won't be surprised.
    I'm starting to get jaded about this whole process- OP release, backend nerf- it's the proverbial mule and the carrot and I end up feeling like an ***.

  15. #95
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That's just parsing words and lawyering terms at this point. Option to do AOE damage which was not previously available = option to change role if desired. Water makes things wet, and the sky is blue on a clear sunny day.

    Before gaining IPS ranged characters could not fill the AOE role. After gaining IPS they can fill the AOE role. Therefore we must logically conclude that ranged gaining IPS was meant to give them the option to change their role when desired.

    No amount of verbal fencing changes this.
    That's just not the way DDO works. Artificers have healing capabilities, so did the Developers intend Arti's to be healers? No. Introducing the -20% dmg to IPS communicates exactly this: ranged aren't suppose to be the main AOE role. Disagreeing with that decision is fine.

    As for the discussion on similar investments, my point still stands. IPS is not limited in the number of mobs you can hit in a direct line, and none of its pre reqs are AOE related. THF typically caps out around 3-4 mobs with 4 feats and some enhancements. Arguing IPS is an equal investment just isn't true. No amount of verbal fencing changes this.
    Epicsoul | Omnisoul | Ultrasoul - Assistant to the Regional Manager of Lava Divers

  16. #96
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    That's just not the way DDO works. Artificers have healing capabilities, so did the Developers intend Arti's to be healers? No. Introducing the -20% dmg to IPS communicates exactly this: ranged aren't suppose to be the main AOE role. Disagreeing with that decision is fine.

    As for the discussion on similar investments, my point still stands. IPS is not limited in the number of mobs you can hit in a direct line, and none of its pre reqs are AOE related. THF typically caps out around 3-4 mobs with 4 feats and some enhancements. Arguing IPS is an equal investment just isn't true. No amount of verbal fencing changes this.
    In theory, yes, IPS has the ability to hit as many targets as you can line up. However in practice as stated this is not always possible. When grouping you can hit maybe 2-3 targets at once while they bunch up around a melee, or you can kite them away from the party and be an annoyance to 5 other people.

  17. #97
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    In theory, yes, IPS has the ability to hit as many targets as you can line up. However in practice as stated this is not always possible. When grouping you can hit maybe 2-3 targets at once while they bunch up around a melee, or you can kite them away from the party and be an annoyance to 5 other people.
    ya, in practice, zerg, grab aggro, draw them all back in a line
    seen it done endlessly

    when HW comes out bow will be OP
    then youl be luvin it

    this reminds me of an old player i dont see any more

    runbackwards andpewpew
    Kil Glory
    30 alchemist
    HOW
    Sarlona

  18. #98
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    ya, in practice, zerg, grab aggro, draw them all back in a line
    seen it done endlessly

    when HW comes out bow will be OP
    then youl be luvin it

    this reminds me of an old player i dont see any more

    runbackwards andpewpew
    and be an annoyance to 5 other people.
    My argument is that IPS is bad because of it’s geometry, not its damage. Ranged characters MUST kite and pull monsters across dungeons and away from party members. They have no other options. It’s not fun gameplay to cheese the AI.

  19. #99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    IPS’s requirements are actually even higher than just the actual feat requirements.

    THF needs:
    THF
    ITHF
    GTHF
    Power Attack or Precision
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 5 absolutely necessary feats. This leaves every class with room for 2 other feats.

    Ranged needs
    Rapid Shot
    Precise Shot
    Point Blank Shot
    Manyshot
    IPS
    Improved Crit
    For a total of 6 absolutely necessary feats, leaving room for just one free slot to take something else. Alternatively you must take 6/11 levels of Ranger to get some of them as free feats, giving up cores 5 and 6 in class trees and potentially making your main class Ranger for TR purposes.
    True.

    I was just talking about the pre-reqs to get the feats and not the additional feats to improve the fighting styles.

    Important to note:

    THF starts dealing AOE at level 1.
    IPS starts dealing LOE at level 11 (or later depending on class) AND if you're kiting.
    In DDO terms, "[x] Pass" means "[x] Changes" not "[x] Improvements"


    THANK YOU SO MUCH

  20. #100
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    ya, in practice, zerg, grab aggro, draw them all back in a line
    seen it done endlessly

    when HW comes out bow will be OP
    then youl be luvin it

    this reminds me of an old player i dont see any more

    runbackwards andpewpew
    Not even close to true

    Bow won’t be OP on hardcore

    kite =/= immorality
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 06-14-2021 at 11:47 AM.

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