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  1. #41
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I don't know about various level ranges, but at 30 it seems to be in a great place right now. I am not saying it needs a nerf, it just seems superior to other ranged options, many melee and all casting options in terms of raid boss dps. I am looking at it from that single dimension and not from the perspective of clearing a dungeon solo or leveling. Boss DPS is the #1 priority for 9 of 12 roles in the recent raids.
    You can't base these things on feelings or what "seems" to be. While I agree bow at cap is good, it's not the best ranged option. Thrower still wins out in terms of standing DPS by about 5%, and that disparity only increases when you consider multitude of missiles. A well built melee is ahead of both.
    Epicsoul | Omnisoul | Ultrasoul - Assistant to the Regional Manager of Lava Divers

  2. #42
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    You can't base these things on feelings or what "seems" to be. While I agree bow at cap is good, it's not the best ranged option. Thrower still wins out in terms of standing DPS by about 5%, and that disparity only increases when you consider multitude of missiles. A well built melee is ahead of both.
    I am not basing it on feelings - that is something you are imagining based on your feelings.

    We ran several tests and thrower dps is down and bow dps beats it quite firmly.

    If you have a thrower build you think beats bow please post it here with your attack sequences, gear, enhancements, ed and I will test it out in case I am missing a better configuration or attack sequence.

    I have an 11/6/3 and can even use a lesser to test out a different split, but first put some proof to what you say and list your build and I will test and give the results.
    Last edited by slarden; 04-29-2021 at 12:37 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Correct on all points. Attack speed is not even close to the only metric at play here, and even at the current, lower-than-the-arbitrary-speed-you-were-stuck-at-before speed, most bow builds should be more effective overall than pre-U49. Your mileage will vary, as with every change, and we absolutely don't expect everyone to agree that it's better.
    I think the main problem is the lack of communication, not explaining the changes from the original to the final version, specially with changes this big, only help to build mistrust and anger. I really hope you learn from this in the future, you all have being doing so much better in this regard in the last couple of years, but there is so much space to improve, plz keep the hard work, continue and improve listening to players and expressing your thoughts on the matters specially when you disagree with something many ppl are having issues.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.
    I don't know what you did but there's no way a 7% speed nerf could have such a drastic effect on thrower builds, especially since I've played plenty of thrower builds without Blinding Speed before and didn't experience attack rate that's slow as molasses.

    In the bio "+" tab the thrower ranged speed is still showing 86% but its not even close to being the same as before U49.

    I always solo Elemental rooms in R1 PN with my thrower character and post U49, it takes almost twice as long to clear each of these rooms.

    I'd urge you to check if "Whirling Wrists" are still WAI because something is definitely wrong here.

  5. #45
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I am not basing it on feelings - that is something you are imagining based on your feelings.

    We ran several tests and thrower dps is down and bow dps beats it quite firmly.

    If you have a thrower build you think beats bow please post it here with your attack sequences, gear, enhancements, ed and I will test it out in case I am missing a better configuration or attack sequence.

    I have an 11/6/3 and can even use a lesser to test out a different split, but first put some proof to what you say and list your build and I will test and give the results.
    The number of thrower vs bow have already been done. Show me YOUR "tests," and no, going into a Cabal For One does not count.

    EDIT: IF a bug exists and throwers are actually throwing slower, then that's different. I'm not sure if they are, but some seem to suggest this is the case.
    Epicsoul | Omnisoul | Ultrasoul - Assistant to the Regional Manager of Lava Divers

  6. #46
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    The number of thrower vs bow have already been done. Show me YOUR "tests," and no, going into a Cabal For One does not count.

    EDIT: IF a bug exists and throwers are actually throwing slower, then that's different. I'm not sure if they are, but some seem to suggest this is the case.
    So you don't even know this for certain and appear not to have run post-U49 tests and yet claim thrower dps is 5% > than bows and don't even have a build to offer up.

    If you can't even provide a build then you have nothing. How can you make a very precise 5% claim yet have no build to even offer up?

    I was running an 11/6/3 thrower prior to U49 and it's definitely slowed down since U49. We compared that against a 2nd life ranger 20 DWS with 1 epic past life and 35 RAP. Bows are in a great place -but I am not suggesting any nerfs.

    If the devs want my tests I am happy to share them - they can send me a PM. Some random forumite that doesn't have his facts straight and doesn't appear to even have a thrower build to backup some 5% # - no I won't waste my time on that kind of nonsense. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt you might have had a better thrower build I could test with - but seems more like made-up nonsense to me.
    Last edited by slarden; 04-30-2021 at 12:24 AM.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    I'm honestly not sure why bows would be in such a better position end game now than before if they actualy have 69 attacks per second now, would love to see the math on that. Seems fishy. Is it the multi-shot charges that made all the difference, or is that APS number without max alacrity or something?
    I've heard bows are now at 76 APS standing, with full build level 30. This may be with tenser's for more BAB though, not sure. Either way it's more than 69.

    I do know for certain that bows are strong now though. Not sure specifically why they are, for sure, but I'd guess that the manyshot charges and haste boost are a good portion of it.

  8. #48
    Community Member Yvonne_Blacksword's Avatar
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    Default I feel the change...

    I do not currently have any lvl30 bowslinger but I did start a new ranger. I felt as though the old bow version allowed me to "seem" to fire faster than I could strike with a weapon below level 10.

    That said my new ranger fired like she was on the phone while driving, slow reactions. It has improved by level 5 and I noticed when I am in single fire mode (push a button fire a missile), the animation is slower than my fire rate and that means I wasn't using all my available shots. So that means i was firing faster than i thought. She was already aimed at the same object and I had moved on to the next before the animation for the next shot started.

    Its not like I was wasting ammo, i just felt that the auto-targeting was slow and working with the animation instead of the fire-rate. I do not remember that being a problem before as the auto-target re-targeted before the actual missiles animated.

    I also noticed that there is no way to lead shots if a target moves horizontally unless I switch to mouse mode (which makes me feel ill). I don't even get a miss roll. I just shoot a wall. :/
    Is that normal? I feel like I have been out of it a while and missing something.

    I know it is a strategy to jump (up down side to side) when confronted with ranged opponents, but when did the mobs ever use that successfully before?


    Has something changed or is it just my "FEELINGS".
    I used to list all my characters on Sarlona (previously on Areneal) but now I really play just artificers, on all four(ahem....8) accounts, on every server but hardcore(meh...I went there too...)...see ya round! Stellectric/Illonly/Tendine/Scionide

  9. #49
    Community Member Bloodskittle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.
    From what you've said here attack rate increases should affect Throwing weapons, currently Haste boost which is working normally on Bows, makes no increase to the thrown weapon attack rate. Tested on a lvl 30 pure ranger with Whirling wrists and 20% standing ranged alacrity displayed.
    While using haste boost my attacks per minute remained at 69 attacks per minute with the thrown weapon, the same as the control tests.
    Viamel ~ Lava Divers

  10. #50
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    You're wasting your breath Slarden, Epicsoul has never given anything that backs up what he says, If he did he would provide data, which he won't.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post
    From what you've said here attack rate increases should affect Throwing weapons, currently Haste boost which is working normally on Bows, makes no increase to the thrown weapon attack rate. Tested on a lvl 30 pure ranger with Whirling wrists and 20% standing ranged alacrity displayed.
    While using haste boost my attacks per minute remained at 69 attacks per minute with the thrown weapon, the same as the control tests.
    This is known. Thrown weapon animations have the same issues regarding engine-based speed capping that Bow animations had before this pass. They will need a similar rebuild of their animations at some point in the future.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  12. #52
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    Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post:
    "From what you've said here attack rate increases should affect Throwing weapons, currently Haste boost which is working normally on Bows, makes no increase to the thrown weapon attack rate. Tested on a lvl 30 pure ranger with Whirling wrists and 20% standing ranged alacrity displayed.
    While using haste boost my attacks per minute remained at 69 attacks per minute with the thrown weapon, the same as the control tests."

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    This is known. Thrown weapon animations have the same issues regarding engine-based speed capping that Bow animations had before this pass. They will need a similar rebuild of their animations at some point in the future.
    I thought throwers as well as bows used to cap out at ~86 APS not 69 though. I'm not sure what is going on. There are several forum reports of APS around ~86, e.g. in the sources section of https://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_speed

    Not saying either is "right" in terms of balance, but the reason for Lynnabel speeding up bow in heroics in the previous bow change was that slow attack speed just feels bad.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 04-30-2021 at 08:06 AM.

  13. #53
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

    Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.
    My shuriken thrower went from 86 shots per minute to 74 after the update. I presume you ment for the cap of 76 on ranged to also apply to thrown weapons? Is that correct? If it's not then clearly it needs to be fixed. Popping a haste boost on my shuriken thrower only brought my animations from 74 to 76. Meaning throwers are not benefitting from increased attack of haste boost to the same level bows are. Should it be affecting thrown weapons more then 2 attack per minute?

  14. #54
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Originally Posted by Bloodskittle View Post:
    "From what you've said here attack rate increases should affect Throwing weapons, currently Haste boost which is working normally on Bows, makes no increase to the thrown weapon attack rate. Tested on a lvl 30 pure ranger with Whirling wrists and 20% standing ranged alacrity displayed.
    While using haste boost my attacks per minute remained at 69 attacks per minute with the thrown weapon, the same as the control tests."



    I thought throwers as well as bows used to cap out at ~86 APS not 69 though. I'm not sure what is going on. There are several forum reports of APS around ~86, e.g. in the sources section of https://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_speed

    Not saying either is "right" in terms of balance, but the reason for Lynnabel speeding up bow in heroics in the previous bow change was that slow attack speed just feels bad.
    I dug through the ddo discord and found that they were leaving ranged at 76 with ability to boost higher then that via haste boost. Also you are correct and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that the d3evs said bows felt slow and then went ahead and slowed them more. Like ***. 86 was previous bow and thrower cap the wiki is correct. Now it's a flat 76 with no improvements from haste boost for thrown and 76 with bows that can benefit from tod set and haste boost. Throwers got the shaft this last update.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    My shuriken thrower went from 86 shots per minute to 74 after the update. I presume you ment for the cap of 76 on ranged to also apply to thrown weapons? Is that correct? If it's not then clearly it needs to be fixed. Popping a haste boost on my shuriken thrower only brought my animations from 74 to 76. Meaning throwers are not benefitting from increased attack of haste boost to the same level bows are. Should it be affecting thrown weapons more then 2 attack per minute?
    When we talk about Engine Speed Capping, we're not talking about a particular number of shots per minute - Though it usually, effectively, ends up that way.

    When animations hit a particular speed multiplier on the back end, they will not go any faster no matter what other speed mods you apply. Throwers are especially prone to this, because the way they were constructed 10+ years ago was bad. You will frequently hit this cap, especially as you get to higher levels, if you're putting any amount of investment in attack speed. If you would gain enough Attack Speed to hit or go above that value, you will gain less than expected (or none at all, if you're already above the cap). Nothing we did in U49 changed this for throwers at all. It will not be fixed until we get entirely new Thrown animations. The reduction of some Enhancement bonuses to Ranged Attack Speed (such as Blinding Speed) should have reduced thrown speed by 7% or less, depending how far above/even with/below the Engine Speed Cap you were at previously. Nothing else should have changed for Thrown builds with U49. We plan to remake Thrown animations in the future so that they no longer have this problem, but (like the bow pass we just finished) it's a terribly expensive process that takes a lot of time and care. We don't currently have an ETA on that.

    Bows DID have the same problem until U49, although because the exact speeds of the Thrown and Bow animations are different, the exact amount of attack speed needed to reach the Engine Speed Cap was different. With U49's new Bow animations, Bow builds can no longer hit the Engine Speed Cap under normal circumstances, and every bonus to Attack Speed you gain with Bows should do exactly what it says it does.

    tl;dr: Other than the change to Blinding Speed (which, due to Engine Cap, should have changed nothing for most endgame throwing builds because they were more than 7% above the cap) Throwers should not have changed in this update.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  16. #56
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    When we talk about Engine Speed Capping, we're not talking about a particular number of shots per minute - Though it usually, effectively, ends up that way.

    When animations hit a particular speed multiplier on the back end, they will not go any faster no matter what other speed mods you apply. Throwers are especially prone to this, because the way they were constructed 10+ years ago was bad. You will frequently hit this cap, especially as you get to higher levels, if you're putting any amount of investment in attack speed. If you would gain enough Attack Speed to hit or go above that value, you will gain less than expected (or none at all, if you're already above the cap). Nothing we did in U49 changed this for throwers at all. It will not be fixed until we get entirely new Thrown animations. The reduction of some Enhancement bonuses to Ranged Attack Speed (such as Blinding Speed) should have reduced thrown speed by 7% or less, depending how far above/even with/below the Engine Speed Cap you were at previously. Nothing else should have changed for Thrown builds with U49. We plan to remake Thrown animations in the future so that they no longer have this problem, but (like the bow pass we just finished) it's a terribly expensive process that takes a lot of time and care. We don't currently have an ETA on that.

    Bows DID have the same problem until U49, although because the exact speeds of the Thrown and Bow animations are different, the exact amount of attack speed needed to reach the Engine Speed Cap was different. With U49's new Bow animations, Bow builds can no longer hit the Engine Speed Cap under normal circumstances, and every bonus to Attack Speed you gain with Bows should do exactly what it says it does.

    tl;dr: Other than the change to Blinding Speed (which, due to Engine Cap, should have changed nothing for most endgame throwing builds because they were more than 7% above the cap) Throwers should not have changed in this update.
    Then something is wrong because throwers are throwing way slower then pre update. Like 16% slower. 86 down to 74 in my case. It's a shuriken thrower with haste 15% and Whirling wrists 60%. My build doesn't have blinding speed. So that isn't the cause on my reduced animations. Other people have noted similar reductions in discords.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    Then something is wrong because throwers are throwing way slower then pre update. Like 16% slower. 86 down to 74 in my case.
    Noted. Investigating. Will post if anything non-WAI turns up.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Release notes where a copy of lama notes and not updated to correct numbers, bows without AB now get 76/min.(25 BAB/ 20% enhance/10% rapid shot)
    Is this not slower than the bow used to be? Maybe we go back to the old animation ~88/Min. At least it looks great.

    The MS active shiot charges are the only reason for the new animation and maybe things yet to come over the horizon?

    Doubleshot looks wrong now number wise and unreal actually.

    Could have just removed DS and added more damage/RP and crit chance to find a more realistic looking solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Noted. Investigating. Will post if anything non-WAI turns up.
    Everything with this update just seems cloaked. Just now realizing throwers have been nerfed.




    Tell me how it all turns out. Back to my caster and 5K.

  19. #59

    Default RE: Thrown Attack Speed

    We've been taking a look at your reports and have discovered an issue where the duration of the pause between throwing a Thrown Weapon and loading a new one has been driven by your BOW attack speed and not your Thrown attack speed as intended. The adjustments to Bows in Update 49 mean the number used for Bow Attack Speed on the back end is lower than before (due to the new, shorter animations), which is why you are seeing slower than expected speeds for Throwing Weapon builds on Live.

    We will fix this in an upcoming patch so that the pause's length is modified by your Thrown Attack Speed. This will be faster than it is now, but depending on the exact numbers of your pre-Update 49 BOW attack speed, it may not bring your Throwers back to a pre-U49 attack speed number, and that is intended.

    Unfortunately, in investigating this bug, this issue with a Thrown Weapon using your Bow attack speed to determine the pause before the reload has been in the game since prior to the game's launch. If we do need to make further adjustments in the future after this fix we can, but we would like to measure player experience on Thrown Weapon attacks after this fix takes place.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  20. #60
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We've been taking a look at your reports and have discovered an issue where the duration of the pause between throwing a Thrown Weapon and loading a new one has been driven by your BOW attack speed and not your Thrown attack speed as intended. The adjustments to Bows in Update 49 mean the number used for Bow Attack Speed on the back end is lower than before (due to the new, shorter animations), which is why you are seeing slower than expected speeds for Throwing Weapon builds on Live.

    We will fix this in an upcoming patch so that the pause's length is modified by your Thrown Attack Speed. This will be faster than it is now, but depending on the exact numbers of your pre-Update 49 BOW attack speed, it may not bring your Throwers back to a pre-U49 attack speed number, and that is intended.

    Unfortunately, in investigating this bug, this issue with a Thrown Weapon using your Bow attack speed to determine the pause before the reload has been in the game since prior to the game's launch. If we do need to make further adjustments in the future after this fix we can, but we would like to measure player experience on Thrown Weapon attacks after this fix takes place.
    And finaly an admission thrown was not right.
    Thank you and now can you please fix sharadi for people using thrown if it is at all possible?
    Ozzgood 45, 48, 24, 39, 110. Ozzbad 40, 44, 18, 39, 88. Ozzugly 45, 48, 22, 39, 125. EvilOzz 40, 48, 12, 39, 116. Ozzistheworst 38, 38, 15, 6, 58. and Alts on Khyber
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