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  1. #1
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    Default U49 buffing bows *and* nerfing archers focus?

    I really don't understand how they are both buffing bows and nerfing archers focus in the same patch. The AF change is a fairly significant drop in ranged power.

    It would not be that hard to fix (something like 2/3 as many max stacks for 150% current effect) but, per Coco, no change will be made.

  2. #2
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight23 View Post
    I really don't understand how they are both buffing bows and nerfing archers focus in the same patch. The AF change is a fairly significant drop in ranged power.

    It would not be that hard to fix (something like 2/3 as many max stacks for 150% current effect) but, per Coco, no change will be made.
    (Cynically) Because the change was never about fixing archers, it was always about nerfing improved crit profile bows and paving the way for horizon walker.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight23 View Post
    I really don't understand how they are both buffing bows and nerfing archers focus in the same patch.
    Maybe this helps?
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-15-2021 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Maybe this helps?
    Not really. That thread effectively says "use a repeater for 28 levels, then use a bow sometimes".

  5. #5
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight23 View Post
    Not really. That thread effectively says "use a repeater for 28 levels, then use a bow sometimes".
    What I got out of it is essentially start a fight with Aimed shot, wait for 3 seconds till you start gaining stacks, then spam manyshot uses. Still won't be able to sustain or get near 25 often anymore though. Mostly probably only raid bosses, and they keep adding mechanics to those that force you to move as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Added even later: Ignore this add, I am the dumb.

  6. #6
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    (Cynically) Because the change was never about fixing archers, it was always about nerfing improved crit profile bows and paving the way for horizon walker.
    Pretty much.

    Doubleshot nerf shifted the power away from AA (CC) and from DWS (T5 AF, Alacrity).

    Anyone got ANY doubt about Horizon Walker becoming the best Bow tree hands down?

    They piled up so many changes in one update it's basically impossible to know the full impact, and they won't share their math/reasoning/projections. There is no transparency.

    Was IPS-character height issue fixed? No.

    Was disappearing arrows issue fixed? No.

    Was ranged alacrity issue fixed? Arguably not even that, they stated there is no longer a hard cap but now it seems you shoot 76 apm instead of 87.
    Last edited by FengXian; 04-16-2021 at 05:57 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Pretty much.

    Doubleshot nerf shifted the power away from AA (CC) and from DWS (T5 AF, Alacrity).

    Anyone got ANY doubt about Horizon Walker becoming the best Bow tree hands down?

    They piled up so many changes in one update it's basically impossible to know the full impact, and they won't share their math/reasoning/projections. There is no transparency.

    Was IPS-character height issue fixed? No.

    Was disappearing arrows issue fixed? No.

    Was ranged alacrity issue fixed? Arguably not even that, they stated there is no longer a hard cap but now it seems you shoot 76 apm instead of 87.
    We may disagree on crit profiles, but I agree with you here. My take on what SSG wants and I base this on all the past changes and info that I have coming into these changes....

    1- SSG wants longbows to be single target burst dps.
    2- SSG does not like crowd control from bows or any other AOE abilities.
    3- SSG is ok with casters being able to spam both of the above with more frequency and also at range and with higher accuracy (DCs), just don't have a bow in your hand.
    4- Horizon Walker will further these goals... Single target burst abilities style dps. I argued strongly against it, but was told flat out it was not going to change. They did not want to listen to the large amount of folks who were asking for more AOE style of play. They want you to pick a target, mark it, track it, lay down some dps vs the one marked target... It is God awful, but they are set on it.

    To sum it up for me, I wanted to see how the bow changes worked out before commenting. Now, I will start commenting... I don't care for how they are pushing this single target dps style down our throats. I don't care for how they are selling nerfs as "game lag fixes". I don't care for how they are handling bow changes for the most part. For me, playing a longbow using character is how I like to play. I liked how the game allowed me to switch between single target and IPS for AOE. The devs brilliance has reduced my ability to play the way I have been playing this game for 15+ years. I don't care for nickel and diming me as a VIP customer. I do not care for the recent SSG business model. If you cannot make this game work with the resources you have, then shut it down. This bow revamp is a microcosm of what is really wrong here; they cannot fix things correctly due to a lack of resources, so they pump out 'easy button Band-Aids' as solutions at the expense of the gameplay experience of the customers. I may not make it to 16 years.

    I always knew there may come a time when I would quit this game, I never expected the game would quit on me.
    Last edited by barecm; 04-16-2021 at 09:35 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    What I got out of it is essentially start a fight with Aimed shot, wait for 3 seconds till you start gaining stacks, then spam manyshot uses. Still won't be able to sustain or get near 25 often anymore though.
    That build bumps back up to 25 stacks every 54 second cycle by swapping to repeater for 12 seconds and using two aimed shots, then decays 18 times for an average stack of 16 = 80 RP. It is also in IPS bow AoE mode 42 of 54 seconds while it decays.

    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Anyone got ANY doubt about Horizon Walker becoming the best Bow tree hands down?
    HW will be worse than DWS, just like inquisitor is worse than mechanic, because clerics can use it and you can't have clerics out-dpsing dps classes and having heal spell. You have to make DWS work, since it is the only archer tree in the game to survive the proc nerf to stack AF, and that also conforms to the standard weapon dps platform of haste boost + armor pen for reapers, multistrike, and procs for sneak damage. As far as I can tell, my DWS build is the only possible dps archer build in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    (Cynically) Because the change was never about fixing archers, it was always about nerfing improved crit profile bows and paving the way for horizon walker.
    Yes, by conforming bows to the standard power + armor pen + crit/multiplier stack+ haste boost + multistrike + sneak damage from an enhancement tree platform every single other high dps weapon build is based on and how other existing bow trees need them to be to produce dps like kensai and KoTC and DWS. Bow damage needed to conform to that platform to be able to make and sell other bow enhancement trees and make existing dps trees work. While bow damage was 10k/manyshot rotation damage, enhancement trees were never the driving force behind them. Since bows now conform to other weapons, they can now have trees built for them like other weapons, and use existing trees like kensai and KoTC or DWS designed for general weapon use.

    However, DWS is the only bow tree on live to conform to that platform AND survive the proc nerf AND only if you also use a repeater. You either make DWS work regardless of how many hoops you have to jump through, or your bow build will fall apart. And as far as I can tell, the way I put together is the only way in DDO to make it work. Conform or die is WAI:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We are not concerned that builds not investing in a particular combat style may see their damage go down with that combat style. That is intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    What I got out of it is essentially start a fight with Aimed shot, wait for 3 seconds till you start gaining stacks, then spam manyshot uses.
    If you want to use up all your manyshot charges you could swap to a bow and stand still 6 seconds to do an aimed + 3x manyshot to recharge every 36 seconds.

    I think I'll stick with my EK. GL with bows.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-16-2021 at 12:28 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The new bow focused tree will need to be the hans in order to get people to pay for the tier of the xpac it comes with. All other ranged need to take shots to the dome for this to happen.

    Now I know what the attempted counter argument will be: "But Chai, this also hurts HW if it used bow" to which the reply is: "They can build the difference back into HW without everyone else getting it too."

    Its either buff this beyond what everything else is doing, or nerf everything else in the archetype down a bit then release this still OP for its own archetype, but not miles ahead of other archetypes.
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  10. #10
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The new bow focused tree will need to be the hans in order to get people to pay for the tier of the xpac it comes with. All other ranged need to take shots to the dome for this to happen.

    Now I know what the attempted counter argument will be: "But Chai, this also hurts HW if it used bow" to which the reply is: "They can build the difference back into HW without everyone else getting it too."

    Its either buff this beyond what everything else is doing, or nerf everything else in the archetype down a bit then release this still OP for its own archetype, but not miles ahead of other archetypes.
    I really hope this isn't how it pans out but from what I can tell so far... I'm glad I already abandoned my Longbow user shortly after Sharn arrived. This is exactly what I'm afraid is going to happen with EDs. Nerf, nerf, nerf... oh you want this power back? ok $$$ pay some more and you might achieve the same power you had before at 30 by level 40. And with all these proc changes will we even be able to tell if and when we've arrived back at where we already are? It feels like a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.

    On the one hand I'm having a hard time believing this level of chicanery is intended and it may just be a perfect storm of prioritizing/poor timing/lack of time and resources/poor communication between teams... on the other hand whether they admit it or not there has absolutely been a pattern of behavior of release op thing to sell, max sales achieved and new Op thing ready for sale, nerf obliterate previous Op thing from orbit, release newest op thing to sale. Oh you want this power back? now you need to pay more $$ to buy the newest Op thing, enjoy while it lasts.

    In that respect, nerfing all else in the same column so the newest Op thing is only Op in that column and not OP over all is like Corrupt-a-Wish.

    I can afford to have a wait-and-see approach because I'm already divorced from my AA alt, but I'm loosing respect for the homogenization of weapons/enhancements and the funneling into DPS is the emperor over all, and focusing on single-target DPS when 90+% of the game is giant packs of mobs, hordes of creatures within spitting distance of each other, never fighting each other and always blood thirsty for us... oh but the tools we should build with (such as AF) only apply to fighting one gosh-darn enemy at a time?! what the heck?*kobold voice* Really? really?! And force us to stay still! In a game where movement equals survival? And then they don't like perch points but any sane/reasonable person would hunt/snipe from such in actual combat and the way AF is designed almost points at it with big red arrows. *smh* This is a maelstrom of either poor planning or apathetic disregard for the consequences of such decisions on the actual in-game play-style versus game environment.

    Apologies for the rant, sometimes the bitterness overwhelms me.
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  11. #11
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I really hope this isn't how it pans out but from what I can tell so far... I'm glad I already abandoned my Longbow user shortly after Sharn arrived. This is exactly what I'm afraid is going to happen with EDs. Nerf, nerf, nerf... oh you want this power back? ok $$$ pay some more and you might achieve the same power you had before at 30 by level 40. And with all these proc changes will we even be able to tell if and when we've arrived back at where we already are? It feels like a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.

    On the one hand I'm having a hard time believing this level of chicanery is intended and it may just be a perfect storm of prioritizing/poor timing/lack of time and resources/poor communication between teams... on the other hand whether they admit it or not there has absolutely been a pattern of behavior of release op thing to sell, max sales achieved and new Op thing ready for sale, nerf obliterate previous Op thing from orbit, release newest op thing to sale. Oh you want this power back? now you need to pay more $$ to buy the newest Op thing, enjoy while it lasts.

    In that respect, nerfing all else in the same column so the newest Op thing is only Op in that column and not OP over all is like Corrupt-a-Wish.

    I can afford to have a wait-and-see approach because I'm already divorced from my AA alt, but I'm loosing respect for the homogenization of weapons/enhancements and the funneling into DPS is the emperor over all, and focusing on single-target DPS when 90+% of the game is giant packs of mobs, hordes of creatures within spitting distance of each other, never fighting each other and always blood thirsty for us... oh but the tools we should build with (such as AF) only apply to fighting one gosh-darn enemy at a time?! what the heck?*kobold voice* Really? really?! And force us to stay still! In a game where movement equals survival? And then they don't like perch points but any sane/reasonable person would hunt/snipe from such in actual combat and the way AF is designed almost points at it with big red arrows. *smh* This is a maelstrom of either poor planning or apathetic disregard for the consequences of such decisions on the actual in-game play-style versus game environment.

    Apologies for the rant, sometimes the bitterness overwhelms me.
    Yep this is so true.

    Does feel like a lot of smoke and mirrors, doesn't really matter whether intentional or not.

    Also on-hit effects are fun. Sacrificing them better solve MOST lag, otherwise it's not really worth it.

    But what if it doesn't? Will you revert?. Rhetorical question.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I really hope this isn't how it pans out but from what I can tell so far... I'm glad I already abandoned my Longbow user shortly after Sharn arrived. This is exactly what I'm afraid is going to happen with EDs. Nerf, nerf, nerf... oh you want this power back? ok $$$ pay some more and you might achieve the same power you had before at 30 by level 40. And with all these proc changes will we even be able to tell if and when we've arrived back at where we already are? It feels like a lot of smoke and mirrors going on.
    I'm sorry we've given you the impression that we're doing this, but we're really, really not. I don't really understand what we can do to help reassure you that this isn't some evil marketing plot and we genuinely do want to make our ED system better. If you can think of anything we can do to help alleviate these concerns, let us know. We're really proud of how the overhaul is progressing, especially because our planned changes have removed a huge barrier to alt play (something we've historically had trouble emphasizing), but if we're not doing a good enough job of explaining that then we should try our best to improve our messaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    On the one hand I'm having a hard time believing this level of chicanery is intended and it may just be a perfect storm of prioritizing/poor timing/lack of time and resources/poor communication between teams... on the other hand whether they admit it or not there has absolutely been a pattern of behavior of release op thing to sell, max sales achieved and new Op thing ready for sale, nerf obliterate previous Op thing from orbit, release newest op thing to sale. Oh you want this power back? now you need to pay more $$ to buy the newest Op thing, enjoy while it lasts.
    We intentionally structured this year to prevent the impression that we'd be selling Horizon Walker as the "fix" for bows by ensuring that the bow changes happened first, well in advance. It looks like that isn't enough to prevent that feeling, which makes me sad, but ultimately wasn't that unexpected, ah well. It looks like that it doesn't really matter when a new system comes out, as long as it comes out at all, players will assume that it's us holding character power for ransom.

    It feels like on our end an easy way to prevent this would have been, for lack of a better wording, to buff the heck out of bows until they were unarguably OP, and therefore to the players it definitely wouldn't look like we were splitting the bow update. Logically I would have hoped that us dedicating a significant amount of time, remaking and then re-remaking all of the bow animations, and generally restructuring the rough spots of the bow combat style, would be enough to assuage the fears that we're not doing enough, but if our choices are truly "make bows super OP to reassure players that they don't need to buy a tree that doesn't exist yet" or "make bows balanced" I feel like option B is the right way to go.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 04-17-2021 at 11:31 AM.
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  13. #13
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post

    It feels like on our end an easy way to prevent this would have been, for lack of a better wording, to buff the heck out of bows until they were unarguably OP, and therefore to the players it definitely wouldn't look like we were splitting the bow update. Logically I would have hoped that us dedicating a significant amount of time, remaking and then re-remaking all of the bow animations, and generally restructuring the rough spots of the bow combat style, would be enough to assuage the fears that we're not doing enough, but if our choices are truly "make bows super OP to reassure players that they don't need to buy a tree that doesn't exist yet" or "make bows balanced" I feel like option B is the right way to go.
    I think that is a bit over the top to say. No one reasonably would be asking for OP, but something more along the lines of a buff without nerfing the heck out of things along the way. Not a good feeling to have waited 15 years for this and have it come with a slew of nerfs. The backlash you are getting is not coming from emotional reactions, it is coming from what people are seeing on Lamannia resulting from extensive testing. I don't think it is fair to limit the choices to your A or B. There is a C that may be somewhere in the middle. If you are going to break Monchers, maybe have Zen Archery get a boost. If you are going to break AA builds, then maybe give AA a DC boost to compensate. We expected buffs, not net neutral changes. You are being told this, but choose to ignore (in our minds) by not commenting / doing nothing. You have a chance to redeem yourselves, and all we see with each iteration on Lamannia is more nerfs.



    I think what is being missed here by SSG is where bow users are coming from; which is the bottom. We are not just getting a boost. We see it as a boost with a bunch of nerfs; a lot of 'net nuetral' and not what was promised. From my point of view, the bow changes go back to the IPS nerf when promises were made. Now that it is time to deliver, I am not seeing enough and certainly not seeing what was being sold to appease the anger of folks when the IPS nerf was announced. You reap what you sow is all I can say. You made promises and got the users hopes up, and in the eyes of you customers, you have not delivered. The sentiment is that the changes should not put bows in a similar place as before, we should be getting significant boosts. We are not seeing that and that is why folks are upset. We already took the hit for Inquisitive being OP and to this point I am not seeing where we are in a better place than before. Maybe equal or slightly better... but certainly not what was expected or promised.

    Also, I am tired of the "we have other changes coming" line too. This is 15 year old issue. Don't tell me about stuff coming later.

    The next step is for folks to express their displeasure monetarily.
    Last edited by barecm; 04-17-2021 at 12:36 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'm sorry we've given you the impression that we're doing this, but we're really, really not. I don't really understand what we can do to help reassure you that this isn't some evil marketing plot and we genuinely do want to make our ED system better. If you can think of anything we can do to help alleviate these concerns, let us know. We're really proud of how the overhaul is progressing, especially because our planned changes have removed a huge barrier to alt play (something we've historically had trouble emphasizing), but if we're not doing a good enough job of explaining that then we should try our best to improve our messaging.



    We intentionally structured this year to prevent the impression that we'd be selling Horizon Walker as the "fix" for bows by ensuring that the bow changes happened first, well in advance. It looks like that isn't enough to prevent that feeling, which makes me sad, but ultimately wasn't that unexpected, ah well. It looks like that it doesn't really matter when a new system comes out, as long as it comes out at all, players will assume that it's us holding character power for ransom.

    It feels like on our end an easy way to prevent this would have been, for lack of a better wording, to buff the heck out of bows until they were unarguably OP, and therefore to the players it definitely wouldn't look like we were splitting the bow update. Logically I would have hoped that us dedicating a significant amount of time, remaking and then re-remaking all of the bow animations, and generally restructuring the rough spots of the bow combat style, would be enough to assuage the fears that we're not doing enough, but if our choices are truly "make bows super OP to reassure players that they don't need to buy a tree that doesn't exist yet" or "make bows balanced" I feel like option B is the right way to go.
    I think, that the decision to basically not touch any bow-centric trees also led to this rather unfortunate impression of the HW being put foremost. As all the heavy lifting of the bow pass is done by the feats (for better general access), it's the enhancements that actually leads to most of an archer's power and identity (unless monkcher, as this one only was more or less defined by having monk levels, 10k*, and manyshot).

    When nothing is done to old trees but a new tree is announced, which uses the exact same weapon, I can see how this can cause false impressions (the changes for Final Strike are rather late in the race as well and appears more of an overdue fix, instead of a real change).
    Tbh, I expected to get an AA-pass as part of the bow-pass, at least.

    Another notion would be, that U49 could have been all about the bow pass, but now the Multihit-change has also been introduced, bringing two big changes at once, that will make us players look for synergies, good and bad ones. Like how Archer's Focus suddenly is much harder to build up and as easily to lose as ever, and how the only on the nose ranged combat ED relies on procs.
    This is very similar how the Inquis-rebalance and the IPS-change came at the same time. Your team told us, that they were independent from each other (and I trust you on this), but two changes that came at the same time, and had crazy synergy with each other.
    Last edited by Pandjed; 04-17-2021 at 12:42 PM.

  15. #15
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'm sorry we've given you the impression that we're doing this, but we're really, really not. I don't really understand what we can do to help reassure you that this isn't some evil marketing plot and we genuinely do want to make our ED system better. If you can think of anything we can do to help alleviate these concerns, let us know. We're really proud of how the overhaul is progressing, especially because our planned changes have removed a huge barrier to alt play (something we've historically had trouble emphasizing), but if we're not doing a good enough job of explaining that then we should try our best to improve our messaging.
    Can't comment much on this since there's an NDA and I would be culpable not you, but what I last saw still had a lot of work to go and was still very unfinished and still had so, so very many unanswered questions about how things would work and shuffle out. Insecurity about the eventual finished product of such changes is the best I got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We intentionally structured this year to prevent the impression that we'd be selling Horizon Walker as the "fix" for bows by ensuring that the bow changes happened first, well in advance. It looks like that isn't enough to prevent that feeling, which makes me sad, but ultimately wasn't that unexpected, ah well. It looks like that it doesn't really matter when a new system comes out, as long as it comes out at all, players will assume that it's us holding character power for ransom.

    It feels like on our end an easy way to prevent this would have been, for lack of a better wording, to buff the heck out of bows until they were unarguably OP, and therefore to the players it definitely wouldn't look like we were splitting the bow update. Logically I would have hoped that us dedicating a significant amount of time, remaking and then re-remaking all of the bow animations, and generally restructuring the rough spots of the bow combat style, would be enough to assuage the fears that we're not doing enough, but if our choices are truly "make bows super OP to reassure players that they don't need to buy a tree that doesn't exist yet" or "make bows balanced" I feel like option B is the right way to go.
    From what I can tell bows started out in a bad place before this update, after this update will still be mediocre not the least of which because many bow builds depend on procs and this update will crush them. Should feel better leveling through heroics though. People are anticipating Horizon Walker to make up for bows still ending up mediocre at cap. Not unexpectedly. What exactly are you balancing bows against? Crossbows? Crossbows can be equipped with runearms for extra damage. Crossbows will still have Endless Fusillade, and No Holds Barred but Many Shot has always been a "problem". Crossbows can be dual-wielded. But of course the best ranged builds for a long time now have been throwing-weapons which also benefit from an offhand item either offensively or defensively. Of course those builds also heavily relied on procs and will take a nose dive after this update.

    This is what I meant by the perfect storm... its like you guys were unaware how much ranged builds in particular depend on procs so let's have a ranged update and coincidentally crush proc rates simultaneously. We have ONE ranged-focused Epic Destiny and it almost entirely depends on procs for goodness sake!

    And if you want our attitude and expectations to change towards new enhancement trees/classes/races it may take a few years because we didn't start out with these attitudes and expectations... it took several years of repeated pattern as mentioned in my previous post for this to become the expected norm. I'm not saying its wrong to want our attitude to change I'm saying it wrong to expect it to change swiftly.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    From what I can tell bows started out in a bad place before this update, after this update will still be mediocre
    Not to say something incredibly obtuse that I'll regret for the rest of my life but... isn't that a good thing? Mediocre in this context means not overpowered or overtuned, right? If our choices were to make bows OP, make bows balanced, and keep bows at the bottom of the pile... the middle option is the best one, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    I think, that the decision to basically not touch any bow-centric trees also led to this rather unfortunate impression of the HW being put foremost. As all the heavy lifting of the bow pass is done by the feats (for better general access), it's the enhancements that actually leads to most of an archer's power and identity (unless monkcher, as this one only was more or less defined by having monk levels, 10k*, and manyshot).
    I guess in my mind what makes me curious about the whole thing is that Horizon Walker doesn't exist yet, and yet it still manages to cast a huge shadow over an independently done overhaul.

    Overhauling the AA tree is its own can of worms, and honestly I feel like you folks would be disappointed even more if we had done that instead of fixing bows at their core. It'd be like if we had locked most of Strikethrough behind, like, the Thief Acrobat tree. I dunno.

    The timing of our combat flow perf stuff definitely could have been better, but holding back what could be a huge increase in game performance for any amount of time longer than strictly necessary feels like a very wrong choice. Holding back the Bow portion would bring it closer to Horizon Walker, which is also a wrong choice. Given that we can't go back in time, we can only release them together.

    Off the record, Monkcher not having synergistic trees is something I really want to address in the future. Eventually!
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 04-17-2021 at 01:19 PM.
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    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Not to say something incredibly obtuse that I'll regret for the rest of my life but... isn't that a good thing? Mediocre in this context means not overpowered or overtuned, right? If our choices were to make bows OP, make bows balanced, and keep bows at the bottom of the pile... the middle option is the best one, right?
    I don't think the expectation that was set by SSG during the IPS nerf was that bows would be made mediocre. There is an ocean of distance between OP and the bottom of the pile. No one is asking for OP. We are asking for better than what was delivered. Closer to the top than what we saw in Preview 3. Less nerfs with our buffs. We are asking for compensation for the builds that you are breaking in terms of AA and Moncher nerfs. You are reading what we are writing, but you are not listening to what we are saying. You skip over those comments to answer the ones you think you can defend (which is falling flat if you could not tell).

  18. #18
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I guess in my mind what makes me curious about the whole thing is that Horizon Walker doesn't exist yet, and yet it still manages to cast a huge shadow over an independently done overhaul.

    Overhauling the AA tree is its own can of worms, and honestly I feel like you folks would be disappointed even more if we had done that instead of fixing bows at their core. It'd be like if we had locked most of Strikethrough behind, like, the Thief Acrobat tree. I dunno.

    The timing of our combat flow perf stuff definitely could have been better, but holding back what could be a huge increase in game performance for any amount of time longer than strictly necessary feels like a very wrong choice. Holding back the Bow portion would bring it closer to Horizon Walker, which is also a wrong choice. Given that we can't go back in time, we can only release them together.

    Off the record, Monkcher not having synergistic trees is something I really want to address in the future. Eventually!
    I think the HW thing is a result of people trying to rationalize why what was supposed to be a bow buff is being seen as too weak and being so poorly received in it's latest form. So, we say thing like HW must be where all the promised bow buffs are because what we have seen thus far is so weak. Saying things like you would like to fix Moncher is nice, but not going to help folks with Moncher builds post u49. Giving Zen Archery a boost would, but you are choosing not to and are choosing to ignoring that request. Helping AA builds that are being nerfed is also being ignored. I have seen requests for a DC buff to compensate, but no response of course.

    The other most notable omission from any Dev comments is how you are forcing us toward single target dps style of play. Nerfing IPS, taking away multishot procs, what everyone who was in the Players Council saw of HW... all leads to the same place. No thank you on single target dps. Whomever at SSG thinks this is fun or enjoyable way to play should roll up a bow using toon post u49 and run solo in with Archer's focus only and no AA crowd control on at Elite level or higher and tell me how long you last when you agro a high dps dealing pack of mobs. This is why I am saying HW will NOT work and will be an even bigger disappointment for bow users. The ONLY hope I had was the glimmer that was provided with the idea of the monk rework you are hinting at. That is what, 2-3 years out at best? Bows need more help now, not later or much, much later.
    Last edited by barecm; 04-17-2021 at 01:41 PM.

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    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Not to say something incredibly obtuse that I'll regret for the rest of my life but... isn't that a good thing? Mediocre in this context means not overpowered or overtuned, right? If our choices were to make bows OP, make bows balanced, and keep bows at the bottom of the pile... the middle option is the best one, right?
    I guess if you put it that way, in relative comparison, its better than nothing. But its also by connotation sad.

    me·di·o·cre

    adjective
    of only moderate quality; not very good.

    Look I wasn't hoping for bows to be OP or the best thing ever but I was hoping for them to be at least equal to crossbows and as of this moment I see zero reason to change back to longbows from Great Crossbow or dual-wielding crossbows. I never enjoyed repeaters the ratta-tat-tat of their sound fx bugs me no end. And I never cared enough that throwers were the BEST to make one... but few have the capacity to enjoy being the worst choice for long. And as of what I can see, and my admittedly few hours of playing around on Lammania it felt meh at cap, so why bother re-doing my character? Again, at least part of why the bow changes are not making a real difference is the performance changes are totally botching procs which are so crucial to ranged builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The timing of our combat flow perf stuff definitely could have been better, but holding back what could be a huge increase in game performance for any amount of time longer than strictly necessary feels like a very wrong choice.
    I can find no fault with that, and I do not blame you for it, but we need you (plural not you in particular) to see that it is affecting ranged effectiveness especially and casting shade on the bow changes. Some greater changes are going to need to take place for this all to feel like a positive.

    I've already made my suggestions in the bow thread, and the performance thread for ideas that might mitigate some of the negative backlash.
    Last edited by Aelonwy; 04-17-2021 at 01:44 PM. Reason: pronunciation key from dictionary website didn't copy over
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I guess in my mind what makes me curious about the whole thing is that Horizon Walker doesn't exist yet, and yet it still manages to cast a huge shadow over an independently done overhaul.
    I assume that HW actually stands in the huge shadow of the inquisitive, which is another weapon-focused ranged tree and has a certain history behind it, and I still think, the name is misleading and it should be called "X-Bow Rambo".


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Overhauling the AA tree is its own can of worms, and honestly I feel like you folks would be disappointed even more if we had done that instead of fixing bows at their core. It'd be like if we had locked most of Strikethrough behind, like, the Thief Acrobat tree. I dunno.
    I think, the bow pass might have been worth the double trouble. Especially given, that the AA doesn't grant any ranged power, alacrity, additional bow damage, no action boost that synergize well with bows within a full BaB class, has several costly and only arguable useful actives, and benefits wizards more than rangers overall.
    Take this and the statement that's supposed to fill a role as main-CC/elemental damage secondary, while it has only 1 CC enhancement, it leads to get 1 elemental as high as possible, and the rest is debuff or mana-mitigation, and you may see, that AA actually do very little for bows in the first place despite its name and is much more "arcane"-lopsided, and not very "archery".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The timing of our combat flow perf stuff definitely could have been better, but holding back what could be a huge increase in game performance for any amount of time longer than strictly necessary feels like a very wrong choice. Holding back the Bow portion would bring it closer to Horizon Walker, which is also a wrong choice. Given that we can't go back in time, we can only release them together.
    I don't personally mind, but here some more comforting words would have been helpful, I believe? Or at least some ideas that implement this new multihit-mechanic in the new bow-pass' design immediately to make bows at least feel up-to-date.

    But I'm with you, better to be fast with it, then wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Off the record, Monkcher not having synergistic trees is something I really want to address in the future. Eventually!
    Will it be with the eventual monk pass? Cuz monks are kinda in the same weird spot as rogues in terms of their enhancement trees, of getting 3 weapon-themed ones (unarmed, finesse-like monk weapons, quarterstaffs).



    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    We are asking for compensation for the builds that you are breaking in terms of AA and Moncher nerfs. You are reading what we are writing, but you are not listening to what we are saying. You skip over those comments to answer the ones you think you can defend (which is falling flat if you could not tell).
    Let's be fair, they mostly answer questions about technical aspects and comprehension question, which is totally fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    I don't think the expectation that was set by SSG during the IPS nerf was that bows would be made mediocre. There is an ocean of distance between OP and the bottom of the pile. No one is asking for OP. We are asking for better than what was delivered.
    Also, I'm certainly not asking for anything strong or better than we get. What I ask for is that they either decide to make each ranged weapon style (bow, x-bow, throwers) different in playstyle (diversity) or that they drop a lot of it to make one ranged combat style (so we have THF, SWF, TWF, and ranged), instead of this unfocused mess we have currently, where everything is supposed to be single-target DPS, all have some kind of burst, etc. and they all share some feats, but not all, and such.

    Not that I expect this to be met, but what good is a bow pass for me, if in the end, I get the same of using other ranged weapons?
    Last edited by Pandjed; 04-17-2021 at 01:58 PM.

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