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  1. #101
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    Change the ranger capstone (the +25% offhand ds was its killer feature)
    The fact they mentioned all sources of offhand are gone, but didn't mention what becomes of sources like above tells us they either don't have a plan, or they refuse to share it. Key feature of twf 20 ranger and what happens to that core? Crickets.

    Steel, why don't you just remove dance of death right meow? Get it over with instead of yanking it out a few years from now. Just give me all the pain at once. SSG, the slow peeling band-aid removal torturers.

  2. #102
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    People beat me to it, but I'm concerned about this affecting non-damage proc rates.

    Any chance of changing the multi-hits rolled to also multiply proc chances? This wouldn't cover everything (for example, no help for things like 100% chance on vorpal) but would help many percentage procs.

    I get that this is a VERY complex change. Even the above suggestion might make some effects double-dip on multi-hit bonuses. For example, Lightning Strike may get double the chance to strike, and double the damage on strike.

    I wish you luck with this endeavor. If it slays the lag monster, it's worth it.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    The fact they mentioned all sources of offhand are gone, but didn't mention what becomes of sources like above tells us they either don't have a plan, or they refuse to share it. Key feature of twf 20 ranger and what happens to that core? Crickets.

    Steel, why don't you just remove dance of death right meow? Get it over with instead of yanking it out a few years from now. Just give me all the pain at once. SSG, the slow peeling band-aid removal torturers.

    They said offhand DS is going to equal mainhand DS/2. That's fine and probably a net buff for many builds.

    Currently offhand ds is as valuable as mainhand ds on a ranger or anyone with 100% offhand proc. So my suggestion is to just convert offhand DS to 2/3 its value in mainhand DS in all cases.

  4. #104
    Community Member DarkSable's Avatar
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    Welp. This kills my two characters - a shuriken monk that applied CC through many on-hit effects. I get it if applying 4 chances of many different effects screws up the queue, and I understand if that's an era that's over now.

    ... But it also completely screws over any build that relies on Vorpal procs, and this is after all kinds of new effects making use of vorpal. Sure, the damage stays the same and is "just" spikier... But when my spike already killed a mob and I'm only getting it half as often now...

    It also means that the only melee CC that didn't take a big nerf is dire charge. Passive CC was a big part of melee characters' damage mitigation - now it seems like basically the last viable build will be TWF as a paladin or barbarian, and if you want CC, just go play a caster.

  5. #105
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    the biggest proc thing I can think of that has issues is Executioner shot/strike

    can we get it changed to 100% proc chance if this goes through? even an actual assassin rogue currently needs to offhand/doublestrike to make this useful

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    You can work it out mathematically. If, for example, 50% of the time an arrow would paralyze a creature, with 3 arrows, there'd be an 87.5% chance of paralyzing it instead. Math.

    If an arrow gives a stack of vulnerability, then 3 arrows would give 3 stacks. That's easy.

    The math isn't that hard, guys. The shortcuts are there. It's basic probability calculations and tables. It would speed things up immensely.
    You're assuming that this is all easy for them to change. Who knows how certain abilities are coded. Maybe some would need to be manually changed. There are items which cause on proc calcs, ED abilities, feats, enchantments, etc. Who knows how some are coded or if they are all accessed from one table or query?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    The fact they mentioned all sources of offhand are gone, but didn't mention what becomes of sources like above tells us they either don't have a plan, or they refuse to share it. Key feature of twf 20 ranger and what happens to that core? Crickets.

    Steel, why don't you just remove dance of death right meow? Get it over with instead of yanking it out a few years from now. Just give me all the pain at once. SSG, the slow peeling band-aid removal torturers.
    This is what I've also pointed out.

  8. #108
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    Looking at this from a high end, dps point of view

    Doublestrike being changed to flat damage means a couple of things.

    1. Dire charge fails more often. You either miss your target, or the target rolls a 20, and without a second hit to ensure dire charge lands enemies will save or be uneffected by attacks with saves such as dire charge more often. Most likely not an issue, but something to be aware of.

    2. Stacks build up slower. Weapons that apply debuffs build their debuffs up slower. Dust stacks slower, ooze and 4 piece shattered device take longer to land.

    3. Things that recharge on hit such as adrenaline, or opportunity attack recharge slower because you are hitting things less often.

    4. Adrenaline damage is doubled. This is a fairly huge dps increase on red names, but a decrease everywhere else because of point 3. You dont have enough adrenalines to keep using them like you do on live now, so this is actually fairly balanced.

    These rent bad changes, just things to be aware of.


    Other changes brought on by this

    Some abilities seem to stop you from attacking for 2ish seconds.

    Im not sure what caused this but abilities such as blood tribute, frenzy, and death frenzy stop you from attacking for well over a second. This is easily demonstrable by holding down left click, then hitting the ability. You will see your character stop attacking for several moments before resuming.
    Swapping weapons also does this to a much greater extent. It takes nearly 2 seconds to continue attacking after swapping a weapon even with quick draw.
    Meld(but not uncanny dodge) will do this as well but its a very brief interrupt in the attack sequence, much less so than other abilities mentioned.

    Action boosts do not.
    Weapon attacks (such as cleave and cracking attack) do not.


    I did not test every ability just the ones mentioned here. Whatever caused this needs to go away. Not being able to attack is extremely unpleasant and ruins the feel of combat.
    This is a bad effect of a good idea, Please fix this.


    That said, lag seemed a fair bit better. Lagged out a couple times in r10 slavers but its slavers, theres always lag. The couple raids that I played felt quite smooth.

    Thank you for doing what you do, and for listening, devs.

  9. #109
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    If it helps lag - change what you will.
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  10. #110
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    Lots of abilities have "a small chance to..." this change would nerf those abilities pretty hard on top of the fact that a lot of those abilites dont scale very well means that a bunch of things will be much worse off like legendary ice etc.

    Edit: maybe a work around for some effects that cant just have multiplied damage get a boost to proc % chance?
    This is actually pretty easy to fix on the back end (mechanically...I don't know what the code they are working with looks like). They can use binomial distribution to figure out if those effects would have procced and how many times. Then they can just multiply the damage or apply the affects that many times. For example, the formula to see the odds that an effect will happen at least once in N number of trials is 1-(odds against)^N. Since most of these random effects only have a 2% chance of proccing, you can probably leave it at that and nobody would ever know the difference. If you wanted to give that chance, you could look up the long formulas for doing this or you could write a loop that decrements N until it reaches 0.

    For effects like paralyzation, there are a couple of possible routes. They could force multiple saves, sort of like 5th edition DnD's disadvantage. This would be the closest to how it is now. They could also increase the DC of all effects by some number times the multiattack value, so make them harder to save against. The concepts are easy...coding is a whole different beast.

  11. #111
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    This a halfling the power of the assassinate ability. On live it can hit two targets in concession. Rogue assassin is already the least played style in reapers and in game. With this change I will never play an assassin again in reapers. Would you consider making an expection for assassinate if its possible OR half the cooldown to 6 seconds?

    Also a small selfish quibble. Great crossbows got a slight nerf with this as they actually dont have a alacrity cap and benefitted from the 22% ranged speed. My build now attacks about 2% slower. Great crossbows already feel SOOO SLOW compared to other options, can you give them some alacrity boost somewhere?
    Last edited by Avocado; 04-06-2021 at 09:39 PM.

  12. #112
    Community Member nat_1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We understand that this change will carry a side-effect of reducing the effectiveness of non-damage procs across the board. However, we believe that the overall benefits of this pass will outweigh these side-effects, and will keep an eye on non-damage procs in the near future to ensure this does not have adverse effects on the player experience. We would also like to invite you to copy over to Lamannia and test out your rotation with these changes so you can better gauge the effectiveness of what's been changed. It's very important that these kinds of changes are put through their paces not just by us but by the players, and we want to iron out any rough edges ASAP so we can improve game performance.
    No. I'm sorry, just, no. This is not ok. By your own logic, damage deserves a multiplier to account for the change. You understood this to be true simply by thinking about it. Instead of firing multiple arrows you are firing one, so you understand you need to account for the change. Because one is less than more than one.

    No accounting was made for non-damage procs. But you need Lam data to convince you that it will have an adverse effect? One is still less than more than one. One 6% roll is less than three or five 6% rolls.

    You use "I" when you are delivering good news and the royal "We" when delivering bad news. Even within the same post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Currently, the cap means that either offhand or mainhand cannot go beyond 100% in effectiveness. So yes, stacking doublestrike past the cap will boost offhand past 50%. Now, granted, this may change, but it's what's currently on Lamannia.

    Also to note as I've seen this asked, the proc multiplication will affect on-heal reflective stuff, like Fists of Light. If you heal 2 hp from punching someone, and then multi-hit that punch, that heal will be doubled to 4.



    They've definitely been considered, but considering that our explicit goal is to reduce the amount of procs that are processed, this is kind of just what's happening and we're incredibly unlikely to make changes to counteract our own changes here. Right now players apply effects very very quickly, and after this change, they will apply them more slowly. Increasing the proc chance would produce the same amounts of procs per minute for that effects, which means our changes to performance would not work as well as we'd like them to, which right now seems like a terrible idea.



    Alrighty, you've convinced me, I'll dive in and see what I can do to to stop Scenario 2. Glad you like the staves!

    I'm also going to build out new fun little triple-strike and quadruple-strike icons so you can see just how many times you've struck with this. Right now our feedback only tells you if you've multihit and not how many times, so this kind of reporting is actually quite important. To the floaty text code!
    Ok. I really love this game, I look forward to less lag, and I really like the damage related changes. We are not responsible for proving that one is less than more than one. We deserve better than being told to prove it's so on Lama.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    This a halfling the power of the assassinate ability. On live it can hit two targets in concession. Rogue assassin is already the least played style in reapers and in game. With this change I will never play an assassin again in reapers. Would you consider making an expection for assassinate if its possible OR half the cooldown to 6 seconds?
    The Assassinate ability is completely untouched by this, just tested it out myself to be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by nat_1 View Post
    You use "I" when you are delivering good news and the royal "We" when delivering bad news. Even within the same post.
    I'll make a better attempt to not do that in the future.
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  14. #114
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The Assassinate ability is completely untouched by this, just tested it out myself to be sure.

    .
    You just killed two mobs with one use of assassinate? How does that jive with doublestrike being changed? If one "hit" has its damage doubled for a doublestrike, then how does one hit turn into two hits for assassinate?
    I am confused.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Ugh, and Nerve Venom is getting alot less useful in Shiradi so there is nowhere to go it seems.
    It's not the first time this sort of thing has been blamed for lag. It's not the first time it hasn't worked.

    But the devs will be the first to tell you that they're not the same company they were back then, and that this sort of historical evidence should be invalidated.
    "I prefer the term, 'Freelance Wealth Redistribution Specialist'."

  16. #116
    Community Member Deathlylife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    You just killed two mobs with one use of assassinate? How does that jive with doublestrike being changed? If one "hit" has its damage doubled for a doublestrike, then how does one hit turn into two hits for assassinate?
    I am confused.
    Assassinate is not an extra hit from doublestrike, it is from main hand/off hand that can both proc it I believe
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    You just killed two mobs with one use of assassinate? How does that jive with doublestrike being changed? If one "hit" has its damage doubled for a doublestrike, then how does one hit turn into two hits for assassinate?
    I am confused.
    When I ran a heroic assassin life, my doublestrike was pretty pitiful, yet I still regularly got two mobs with a single use. Based on my feats / enhancements at the time, let alone the 100% frequency in late heroics, that suggests that the extra Assassinate trigger comes from your offhand.

  18. #118
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    You just killed two mobs with one use of assassinate? How does that jive with doublestrike being changed? If one "hit" has its damage doubled for a doublestrike, then how does one hit turn into two hits for assassinate?
    I am confused.
    You can assassinate two mobs at a time if you're dual-wielding - one death per weapon. This has, as far as I can remember, always been the case and my Assassin does it often.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    You can assassinate two mobs at a time if you're dual-wielding - one death per weapon. This has, as far as I can remember, always been the case and my Assassin does it often.
    It actually has nothing to do with how many weapons you're holding. It's just a funky ability. Really fun, though.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It actually has nothing to do with how many weapons you're holding. It's just a funky ability. Really fun, though.
    Huh. I did not know that.


    Of course, the Doubting Thomas in me is going to make me test that out using one dagger instead of two.
    Last edited by Arkat; 04-06-2021 at 09:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
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