Page 1 of 25 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 500
  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    2,015

    Default Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

    In Update 49 we are making significant changes to how melee and missile combat is calculated to address long-term community and development team concerns about game performance. If you're curious, we've included a long form explanation as to what these changes entail on the back end, but if you're interested in just the changes and the results, here's what we've found:

    Before this change: Simulations of a raid group proccing on-hit effects use approx 99.965% processing per-instance and produce an effects queue, which causes combat processing lag for all players on the same server while the queue is processed.
    After this change: Simulations of a raid group proccing on-hit effects use approx 50% available processing per-instance (still well within the green zone of server frames per second) and rarely if ever hit an effects queue.

    An important thing to note when going into this is that when an effects queue happens, it does not only affect your instance, but every other instance on the server that your instance is being processed by. Server in this case does not refer to world, such as Ghallanda or Sarlona or Wayfinder, but the actual machines that process DDO and share the load of each instance between them.

    This also alleviates a source of client lag (floaty text queue), so if you play with floaty text off to alleviate client strain, this will prevent that strain by removing pressure from the floaty text queue.

    Background Information

    We've dedicated a lot of time to investigating and alleviating specific sources of reproducible lag within DDO in recent months. One of the most frequent causes of lag happens when an Effects Queue forms. This means that players have applied a ton of on-hit effects to a monster and the game has reached a buffer and must clear its queue in order to continue processing new information.

    You can see this happen in raid groups; the party jumps in, opens up with a ton of active attacks and on-hit effects, and the game begins to degrade in performance almost immediately. It is also worth noting that this kind of lag has two separate portions: Client Combat Lag (which can be alleviated by turning off Floaty Text in your settings) and Server Combat Lag. We are specifically targeting Server based lag with this change. Behind the scenes, the server crunches damage, effects, and debuffs in a big queue. We can measure how efficient the server is at processing this queue by measuring the server frames.

    To begin researching and addressing the root causes we put together simulations of a standard raid group and their on-hit profiles. Simulations of a raid group attacking a single target quickly ran into the same kind of performance problems that have become prevalent in raid groups, so we knew we had a reliable test case. What we found was that the amount of damage dealt didn't matter, it was about the frequency that effects were being applied. It didn't matter if a simulation was against one target or many - if the effects queue was in trouble the rest of the instance had its performance significantly impacted. That means lag for not just you and your group but for other people on the server.

    What's Changing

    • Doublestrike and Doubleshot will no longer apply a full subsequent "attack" as part of your attack chain. Instead, when a player Doublestrikes or Doubleshots (for brevity, we will call this a multi-hit from now on, just remember that this applies for all melee and all ranged) the game will instead multiply the base amount of damage dealt (first number and sneak attack) by the amount of multi-hits generated. This means that a player who deals an average of 100 damage on their first hit will now deal 200, or 300 damage, or however many multi-hits multiplied by their base damage, when their multi-hit goes off.
    • When a multi-hit happens, you'll see an icon of two swords next to your damage in the floaty text, similar to how Point Blank Shot provides its feedback.
    • Abilities that apply additional ranged projectiles (Shuriken Expertise and Advanced Ninja Training) no longer apply multiple hits or projectiles. Instead, just as if they had been purely Doubleshot scalars, they will simply be additional chances to multi-hit.
    • Effects that trigger on-hit will also have their damage multiplied comparatively. This means that if you deal 10 Law damage on each hit, on a doublestrike, it will deal 20.
    • Repeating Crossbows and the Dual Crossbow style still fire 3 or 2 full projectiles (so you'll still see 3 numbers or 2 numbers, respectively) and are still affected by their Doubleshot penalties of 66% and 50%, respectively.
    • A player's 100% effective Doublestrike cap still applies in this system.
    • Offhand strikes will still be a separate "hit" and will roll their own damage from their own weapon and can still Doublestrike. However, we have removed the stat Offhand Doublestrike from the game. Your offhand now Doublestrikes at 50% of the Doublestrike of your mainhand. This means that if you have a 50% chance to produce an offhand strike, and 100% Doublestrike, your offhand will hit 50% of the time for 50% Doublestrike (so a 50% chance to deal double damage). Abilities and enhancements that used to provide Offhand Doublestrike no longer do so.
    • Shields still cannot Doublestrike.
    • Strikethrough attacks still proc their own Doublestrike roll individually per target struck.
    • The main reasoning behind these changes (letting repeaters and offhand strikes still proc rather than fully condensing) is that we want to keep our damage numbers appropriate to the amount of animations that a player actually produces.


    A major effect of this change is that you will see much spikier damage across the board. The multi-hit calculation takes the original roll into account when determining damage, which means that you'll see much higher highs and much lower lows. Attacks that crit will multiply that increased damage, so you'll see much higher numbers on those attacks. Attacks that miss will deal no damage, as before, but rather than a multi-hit giving a chance for a second strike to deal damage, they will still deal no damage, as the original strike has missed.

    These changes eliminate the Floaty-text queue in practice. Players who are used to seeing damage numbers scroll by on a delay will see the system replaced with numbers that are current. This will make DPS easier to estimate from a series of hits, and there will simply be fewer numbers to add up and adjust.

    The Crunchy Details

    Curious as to what's actually happening when a player attacks? Currently, when a player Doublestrikes or Doubleshots, we actually handle those types of attacks through very different flows. Both melee and missile attacks use something that we call a detect-attack to deal their regular damage, but how they get there is very different. Right now, a player “Doublestrikes” when their attack scripts use their Doublestrike stat to determine if they fire off another detect-attack. A player “Doubleshots” when the Missile Attacker code gets to the part in the code where we determine how many "Missiles" are a part of the projectile. From there, the scripts use the number of missiles to determine how many times they use a detect-attack.

    Now, when a player “attacks” (from the detect-attack callback or elsewhere) the determination to Doublestrike or Doubleshot is made within that single attack call. The appropriate stats are queried, even the weird ones like the Shuriken multi-throw feats, and the appropriate adjustments to the chances are made such as the Doubleshot penalty from using a repeater or dual crossbow. From there, we determine how many “extra attacks” you have rolled, and if you have any bonus “attacks,” we multiply the damage you would deal by that amount.

    We also have to do some funky stuff to get the damage of procs to double or triple or quadruple, and that starts in the same place where we calculate the number of effective hits. The combat code saves the number of hits and passes it down the chain until it gets to the place where effects actually deal their damage. From there, the effect will understand how many times it needs to be multiplied.

    So, for comparison: Before, a melee character swings with his weapon, and Doublestrikes, which would be two detect-attacks, two damage rolls, and two series of on-hit effect triggers. Under these changes, the player attacks, Doublestrikes, and double damage is dealt, but only one set of on-hit-effects trigger because, to the game, only one “attack” took place.

    What this means in practice is that no matter how many projectiles a shuriken thrower uses, or a dual-crossbow player fires, the maximum rate of an on-hit effect is now directly linked to your actual attack speed, and therefore, is significantly reduced. This has the potential to greatly reduce the amount of actual “attacks” in DDO without greatly disrupting player behavior.

    Summary

    The end result of this change should be improved gameplay on the performance end. Furthermore, the numbers you see while dealing damage will more accurately reflect what's happening in the moment, and you should be able to make calculations more quickly. We hope that you'll give this a solid try on Lamannia and look forward to your feedback, both on the usability of this change and any change in performance therein.
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  2. #2
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    2,015

    Default

    Post Reserved
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    614

    Default

    Just a question, but wouldn't adding more items like the there's a small chance you'll gain 30 temp spell power per hit, further these issues?

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Offhand strikes will still be a separate "hit" and will roll their own damage from their own weapon and can still Doublestrike. However, we have removed the stat Offhand Doublestrike from the game. Your offhand now Doublestrikes at 50% of the Doublestrike of your mainhand. This means that if you have a 50% chance to produce an offhand strike, and 100% Doublestrike, your offhand will hit 50% of the time for 50% Doublestrike (so a 50% chance to deal double damage). Abilities and enhancements that used to provide Offhand Doublestrike no longer do so.[*]Shields still cannot Doublestrike.[*]Strikethrough attacks still proc their own Doublestrike roll individually per target struck.[*]The main reasoning behind these changes (letting repeaters and offhand strikes still proc rather than fully condensing) is that we want to keep our damage numbers appropriate to the amount of animations that a player actually produces.
    What does this mean for the Tempest capstone then? What about perfect two weapon fighting and scourge past lives? Are these all getting compensated for the nerf?

  5. #5
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,263

    Default

    If understand, if I'm running a para-arrow bow build with 200% multishot (just using a round number) where 3 arrows could hit each with their own chance of paralyzing, only 1 would hit now for 3x damage and only 1 save vs para? Same with nerve venom, stay frosty, etc... where they've got a % chance to proc on hit, where they'll now have reduced odds off going off since it'll be 1 hit for 7% proc vs 2(or 3) hit of 7% proc chance each?

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    682

    Default

    Overall, looks great!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Effects that trigger on-hit will also have their damage multiplied comparatively. This means that if you deal 10 Law damage on each hit, on a doublestrike, it will deal 20.
    How will this work with non-damage procs? As a Monk fan I'm most interested in Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light and Fists of Light's curse-typed debuff, but it'll also affect Ameliorating Strike and likely several other things I'm not thinking about. These effects proc on the player(s) rather than the mooks. When I last ran Henshin a little under a year ago, I occasionally got SCEWL procs from both Strikethrough and Doublestrike, as the total proc # was greater than could be explained by either source individually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Abilities and enhancements that used to provide Offhand Doublestrike no longer do so.
    Are these effects getting replaced with anything, or simply removed? IMO, Tempest's Dervish (C6) will get a lot less appealing if it's the latter.

    Similarly, will the Aasimar PL get changed? My not-extensively-mathed-out suggestion would be to bump it to 2% per stack; I understand that many veterans are already doublestrike capped at cap, but this would remain useful for everything but the top 1%, staff builds, and Swashbucklers/Druids using their Doublestrike Action Boosts. With non-raid items, 23% item + 10% insightful + 10% Martial Past Life + 30% Reaper = 73% before any class modifiers.

    Edit: oops, somebody already beat me to the latter part of this
    Last edited by Discpsycho; 04-06-2021 at 01:32 PM.

  7. #7
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    3,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Just a question, but wouldn't adding more items like the there's a small chance you'll gain 30 temp spell power per hit, further these issues?
    Great question! Effects that bounce based on filtration - aka, things with a proc chance, or things that only work on certain Genus or Species, or things that have cooldowns, or things that only work if the target is in a certain state - that filtration means that the effect doesn't fire, so the effect doesn't get added to the queue. Only effects that actually "go off" - those are what needs to get processed by our queue, and therefore those are what's causing the problems.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

    "Have you tried preproccing feat directory?"

  8. #8
    Hero apocaladle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    472

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Just a question, but wouldn't adding more items like the there's a small chance you'll gain 30 temp spell power per hit, further these issues?
    Fair point.

    Lots of abilities have "a small chance to..." this change would nerf those abilities pretty hard on top of the fact that a lot of those abilites dont scale very well means that a bunch of things will be much worse off like legendary ice etc.

    Edit: maybe a work around for some effects that cant just have multiplied damage get a boost to proc % chance?
    Last edited by apocaladle; 04-06-2021 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Does this in any way alleviate the "loading please wait..." zoning issue, or waiting 30s+ to log outs to swap characters?

    It really stinks to be on a xp pot timer and have it ticking away while you cant do anything about it.

    This is a huge QoL issue at the moment.
    Sarlona: Thrundrack, Fizzix, Swyft______(alts x20)

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,619

    Default

    I get the point is to reduce the number of procs that need to be calculated each time a hit lands. That's well and good.

    However, this is going to be a huge nerf to THF and SWF's ability to proc things on hit (or crit or vorp), because you're essentially cutting their proc rate in half now that Doublestrikes wont roll a separate proc chance. Is there any way to double chance-to-proc when you Doublehit (or triple etc. for Doubleshot > 100), to preserve the current balance for on-hit effects like, e.g. Blood Strength or Offhand Versatility? Seems kinda cruel to give SWF a new on-vorp bonus, and then immediately cut their vorp rate in half...

    Can Doublestrike wrap past 100 for purposes of TWF offhand dstrike? Or is that capped at 50?
    Last edited by droid327; 04-06-2021 at 01:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidfox View Post
    If understand, if I'm running a para-arrow bow build with 200% multishot (just using a round number) where 3 arrows could hit each with their own chance of paralyzing, only 1 would hit now for 3x damage and only 1 save vs para? Same with nerve venom, stay frosty, etc... where they've got a % chance to proc on hit, where they'll now have reduced odds off going off since it'll be 1 hit for 7% proc vs 2(or 3) hit of 7% proc chance each?
    I was wondering this too. Where doubleshot used to give you extra chance to proc your prism effects and AA CC effects (saves), it makes it sound like no matter how much doubleshot you have, you'll only get 1 roll rather than the 2-3 before depending on DS.

    Additionally, how does the proc system interact with resists? If you hit a target for 10 on-hit fire damage and doubleshot, in the new system your number would come up as 20 fire damage against a target with 0 fire resist, but what if they have 5 fire resist? Will your shot do 10 fire damage [(10-5)*2] or will your shot be 15 fire damage [(10*2)-5]? I know currently the game subtracts resist off of the base damage when hitting a monster, therefore I suspect the first case (10 fire damage on hit after a doubleshot hit that's resisted at 5). Is this still the case or does doubleshot's damage boost effect the proc before resist is taken into account?
    I'm a Bard... I don't just take down enemies... I do it with style!... oh and lots of Music Buffs.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    614

    Default

    Are you guys even aware of the non-damaging procs in combat? You know, you created all of those abilities which are like 1-5% to proc per hit, which often made TWF competitive? Vorpal, paralyze, lightning strike, energy drain, blind, deception turn around, stunning % on hit, vulnerability, curses, etc....

    It doesn't seem like this was addressed in the notes, yet it is a vital part of combat...Was this change really discussed from all angles?

    Minor point, but this sounds like it will make DR in epics much easier to overcome if your damage is multiplied together...

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Are you guys even aware of the non-damaging procs in combat? You know, you created all of those abilities which are like 1-5% to proc per hit, which often made TWF competitive? Vorpal, paralyze, lightning strike, energy drain, blind, deception turn around, stunning % on hit, vulnerability, curses, etc....

    It doesn't seem like this was addressed in the notes, yet it is a vital part of combat...Was this change really discussed from all angles?

    Minor point, but this sounds like it will make DR in epics much easier to overcome if your damage is multiplied together...
    I think for DR it depends on how resist and Dr is factored in relation to the multi-hit process. If it works like live where it still subtracts off of the base for each would be hit (for elemental at least) the number shouldn't really change, but if it factors the resist/DR AFTER the multi-hit damage is calculated, damage should raise in the face of resists vs live values.

    Also definitely concerned about the on-hit procs. If non-damaging effects will only get one roll no matter the amount of doubleshot/strike, then it's a pretty heavy hit to on hit effect builds, and definitely puts repeaters and duel x-bows as the kings of on hit (non-damaging) effects.
    Last edited by Xezom; 04-06-2021 at 01:50 PM.
    I'm a Bard... I don't just take down enemies... I do it with style!... oh and lots of Music Buffs.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Are you guys even aware of the non-damaging procs in combat? You know, you created all of those abilities which are like 1-5% to proc per hit, which often made TWF competitive? Vorpal, paralyze, lightning strike, energy drain, blind, deception turn around, stunning % on hit, vulnerability, curses, etc....

    It doesn't seem like this was addressed in the notes, yet it is a vital part of combat...Was this change really discussed from all angles?

    Minor point, but this sounds like it will make DR in epics much easier to overcome if your damage is multiplied together...
    Great point a lot of on hit effects proc rates probably need to go up if things are going to work as described.

  15. #15
    Hero Propane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    From Wisconsin, Live in Iowa, Vist Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    In Update 49 ...

    The Crunchy Details


    So, for comparison: Before, a melee character swings with his weapon, and Doublestrikes, which would be two detect-attacks, two damage rolls, and two series of on-hit effect triggers. Under these changes, the player attacks, Doublestrikes, and double damage is dealt, but only one set of on-hit-effects trigger because, to the game, only one “attack” took place.
    This sounds very much like the change to Two Weapon fighting a while back - when the 2nd rolls were removed and the % proc was added... correct?
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  16. #16
    Community Member Elixxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    • Effects that trigger on-hit will also have their damage multiplied comparatively. This means that if you deal 10 Law damage on each hit, on a doublestrike, it will deal 20.

    In regards to something like spellsword dice or any added elemental damage, is the on-hit damage dice rolled and doubled (if multi-hit) before or after taking into account the enemy's elemental resistance?

    Obviously, hitting for 100 damage two separate times and getting -40 damage on each due to elemental resistance is bad. I am just curious where this calculation happens and if this is different under this new system.

    Apologies if this was already covered and I just missed it.







    In general, though, it will be weird to not have floaty text lag. I am looking forward to it!
    Exiile --- Exalt --- Exception

  17. #17
    Community Member grudgebear's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Lithuania
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Why even have Doublestrike in this game if procs and calculations cause performance issues.

    Wouldn't making Doublestrike as a Damage Multiplier mod make it even better?

  18. #18

    Default

    Effects that trigger on-hit will also have their damage multiplied comparatively.
    And what about non-damage? For example: Cannith Combat Infusion on Hammerfist gloves. Assuming 100% doublestrike, doesn't this change cause the infusion to proc 50% less since there are 50% fewer to-hit rolls? Same goes for weapon debuffing like Fetters, Ooze, Dust, etc which now takes twice as long to apply.
    DPS solves all problems. R10 or bust. Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi

  19. #19
    Hero Propane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    From Wisconsin, Live in Iowa, Vist Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,724

    Default

    How will things with X DR (Shroud portals ?) be adjusted for this?

    Does this change affect MOBs as well?
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  20. #20
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    • Offhand strikes will still be a separate "hit" and will roll their own damage from their own weapon and can still Doublestrike. However, we have removed the stat Offhand Doublestrike from the game. Your offhand now Doublestrikes at 50% of the Doublestrike of your mainhand. This means that if you have a 50% chance to produce an offhand strike, and 100% Doublestrike, your offhand will hit 50% of the time for 50% Doublestrike (so a 50% chance to deal double damage). Abilities and enhancements that used to provide Offhand Doublestrike no longer do so.
    That's quite tasty for non-vistani / non-tempest's.


    RE: proc % effects on hit items, I think your team need to go through and double the chance for the effect to go off.

    Changes read like you're nerfing 'on vorpal' effects by 50% for some cases.

    *edit - What about enemy DR? Changes appear that we'd be doing double damage on DS but only needing to bypass dr once?
    Last edited by voxson5; 04-06-2021 at 02:17 PM.

Page 1 of 25 1234511 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload