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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvesunited View Post
    Given the large number of archer builds on live that are monksters shouldn't they get similar treatment? Ten Thousand Stars in its current form has been taken away. We're not getting it back. Yet nothing has been provided to the monkcher to compensate for its loss.
    I actually am going a step further and saying the changes are collectively good for heroic builds, but net nerfs for all notable end game builds. The bottom tier archer builds will be helped by these changes, but I'd reckon the average endgame builds will be about unchanged and the top tier builds will end up at a lesser power level than they were prior to these updates. Not just monkcher, hence the recommendation on manyshot too.
    Last edited by Emerslochingvyrr; 04-08-2021 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvesunited View Post
    Nice defense of maintaining the current functionality of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars. However that ship has long since sailed. The devs have put a lot of thought and effort and planning into this update. And they are not going to shrug now and go in a completely different direction. You are Don Quixote charging at windmills.

    That's why I'm pushing for a much more modest change to the feat of Zen Archery and possible a bow option in Ten Thousand Stars that operates in a way complimentary to the new system. At the very least something to counter the loss of Doubleshot and Ranged Power because Monks have lower BAB. ( which they compensate for with Flurry of Blows )

    This entire archer manyshot update has been about replacing Manyshot with an inferior version but making up for it by giving passive bonuses to multiple other feats. Given the large number of archer builds on live that are monksters shouldn't they get similar treatment? Ten Thousand Stars in its current form has been taken away. We're not getting it back. Yet nothing has been provided to the monkcher to compensate for its loss.
    Any buff that makes Monkchers a better bow build is not something the Devs are going to consider.
    They want homogeneity.
    They want to eliminate burst.
    They need to nerf the base classes in order for Horizon Wanker to sell as Pay-to-Unnerf.
    The bad news is we have to live with it. The good news is we will forget about the current dissatisfaction when the ED revamp comes up with a whole new set of problems to alienate the player base.
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  3. #143
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    Default Monk Archers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Itemized List of total Bow Changes

    • The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.
    As many pointed out this will make monk archers bring nothing to the table.
    • Zen Archery only applies WIS to attack, not to dmg, so Monk Archers still need to go into Falconry for that.
    • Monk trees bring nothing to bows, closest thing is Ninja with more sneak dmg.
    • To gain bonus crit range and multi, monks have to be 20 monk with ninja capstone, or go 12 ranger with T5 in DWS.


    Honestly, either leave 20K stars as the monk archer differential, or give monks something else like:
    • Zen Archery also applies your WIS mod to bow dmg.
    • Zen Archery allows you to use monk special attacks with bows and grants ki on bow strikes.

    Or make an alternative feat to 10K stars that does the second item above.

    This way at least monkchers can go for some ranged void strikes, jade strikes, fist of iron...

    Monk archers need something, or they will just be a divine archer with no armor or spells that runs a bit faster.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    As many pointed out this will make monk archers bring nothing to the table.
    • Zen Archery only applies WIS to attack, not to dmg, so Monk Archers still need to go into Falconry for that.
    • Monk trees bring nothing to bows, closest thing is Ninja with more sneak dmg.
    • To gain bonus crit range and multi, monks have to be 20 monk with ninja capstone, or go 12 ranger with T5 in DWS.


    Honestly, either leave 20K stars as the monk archer differential, or give monks something else like:
    • Zen Archery also applies your WIS mod to bow dmg.
    • Zen Archery allows you to use monk special attacks with bows and grants ki on bow strikes.

    Or make an alternative feat to 10K stars that does the second item above.

    This way at least monkchers can go for some ranged void strikes, jade strikes, fist of iron...

    Monk archers need something, or they will just be a divine archer with no armor or spells that runs a bit faster.
    Hmm. Another idea could be to reinforce bows through the Form feats (Adept, Master, Grandmaster), with each one maybe conferring something different.

    For example:

    Adept of Forms: While using a bow you may use gain 1 ki while hitting a target (an ICD may need to be placed). Crits add another 1 ki. While in Wind stance and wielding a bow you gain 1% ranged alacrity every 10 character levels (this stacks with other sources).
    Master of Forms: While using a bow you may use your Wisdom modifier for damage. While in Fire stance and wielding a bow you gain 1 ki per crit (making it 3 ki on a crit while in fire stance). Of course, this would be better if they had some ranged ki attacks (that used bows I mean).
    Grandmaster of Forms: While using a bow you may use 1/2 Wis mod as a bonus to ranged power and doubleshot. While in Water stance and wielding a bow you gain 1/2 Wis mod as insight bonus to atk.

    Of course, this is just spit-balling.
    Last edited by Tuxedoman96; 04-08-2021 at 09:59 PM.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    As many pointed out this will make monk archers bring nothing to the table.
    Which shows, how ludicrous the design of the monkcher was so far. The overdependance on how two feats interact made the whole idea and there is nothing for it to show outside of it. Don't get me wrong, it has been a blast for a while, but like you said, the class doesn't synergize with bows well.

    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    Monk archers need something, or they will just be a divine archer with no armor or spells that runs a bit faster.
    Maybe we get the best case, and with the planned monk pass, the Zen Archery feat will be removed and the Zen Archer enhancement tree will be added, with a core 1 that's like the feat, and some funky and cool ideas which find their home in a much better design environment.
    I won't hold my breath for it, but would most likely the best way to make monkchers work, and at least I can throw the idea into an empty space.

  6. #146
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    Maybe we get the best case, and with the planned monk pass, the Zen Archery feat will be removed and the Zen Archer enhancement tree will be added, with a core 1 that's like the feat, and some funky and cool ideas which find their home in a much better design environment.
    I won't hold my breath for it, but would most likely the best way to make monkchers work, and at least I can throw the idea into an empty space.
    The did a pretty good job with making various paladin abilities play nice with ranged when they did that pass. Without having to worry about 10k stars, maybe we could see monk abilities with both melee/ranged versions somewhere down the line. If the builders & finishers had a melee and ranged versions available then it would make monkchers/throwers silly fun.

  7. #147
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    Any buff that makes Monkchers a better bow build is not something the Devs are going to consider.
    They want homogeneity.
    They want to eliminate burst.
    They need to nerf the base classes in order for Horizon Wanker to sell as Pay-to-Unnerf.
    The bad news is we have to live with it. The good news is we will forget about the current dissatisfaction when the ED revamp comes up with a whole new set of problems to alienate the player base.
    The fact that people are forgetful is indeed a big problem. We have got to judge this pass ALONGSIDE Horizon Walker in order to see clearly whether the Pass was sufficient on its own (as it should be, and as SSG claimed it would be) or it was just preparing the ground for a P2P Universal Tree.

    I am not saying it's either for sure, yet.

    I'm just saying don't alienate your playerbase. We know how it works.

    1) Removing 10k stars from bows was a no-brainer once you set on the MS nerf route. COMPENSATE by having some Monk abilities work with bows, so that Monkchers stay a viable (and competitive) option.

    2) Burst seems to have been brought back in part, thanks to the fact you can hold onto 3 stacks of new MS. Gotta test it but seems fair, although it should be clear that different ranged weapons should have different playstyles, as unique as possible in fact.

    3) The nerf to expanded crit range weapons you claim are vastly limiting your design space should also be COMPENSATED by a buff to some of those weapons considering how extremely rare and ICONIC they are.
    It's glorious to see some very old items hold up at least in part (not at cap lol) against some newer ones. Keep it that way, if you design cool new items people will still want them.

    If you design "xd6" items with the same effects recombined, ofc people will deem them boring.
    Cannith - Juzam, Fighter 8 Ranger 6 Monk 6 AA/ Orocarn, Wraith 12 Stalwart Defender 6 Rogue 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Alleanza degli Uomini Liberi/Guardiani di Eberron

  8. #148
    Community Member IlmerSilverhilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    1) Removing 10k stars from bows was a no-brainer once you set on the MS nerf route. COMPENSATE by having some Monk abilities work with bows, so that Monkchers stay a viable (and competitive) option.
    It is very sad so see no compensation. For my build it meant there is no reason to stay 6 monk, as I can just get the fire crit multi with 1 monk + some (more) feats. Please think of the Monkchers!
    Ilmer Silverhilt, 36pt (Half) Elf Rogue13/Fighter6/Monk1. The Kighter
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  9. #149
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    I have to ask, if the devs intend for this to not make sense without seeing the ED changes and HW... what exactly is the point of us testing it in this reduced form? That's just going to give them inaccurate data. Not that they seem to be listening to how much worse and less fun bows seem to be ending up as-is.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    As many pointed out this will make monk archers bring nothing to the table.
    • Zen Archery only applies WIS to attack, not to dmg, so Monk Archers still need to go into Falconry for that.
    • Monk trees bring nothing to bows, closest thing is Ninja with more sneak dmg.
    • To gain bonus crit range and multi, monks have to be 20 monk with ninja capstone, or go 12 ranger with T5 in DWS.


    Honestly, either leave 20K stars as the monk archer differential, or give monks something else like:
    • Zen Archery also applies your WIS mod to bow dmg.
    • Zen Archery allows you to use monk special attacks with bows and grants ki on bow strikes.

    Or make an alternative feat to 10K stars that does the second item above.

    This way at least monkchers can go for some ranged void strikes, jade strikes, fist of iron...

    Monk archers need something, or they will just be a divine archer with no armor or spells that runs a bit faster.
    L20 Ninja Spy could have been viable for bows *if* there was some way to increase sneak attack range and trigger them, otherwise the build is pointless. It's baffling that they changed monkcher from the #1 end-game bow build to unsupported in one patch. Coupled with their description of monk builds as "hybrids" using paralyzing in the patch notes, it really makes you wonder if they somehow slept through the last 10 years of monkchers dominating endgame bow DPS. Wisdom monkchers didn't even exist when monchers were at their peak of popularity (when other ranged weapons were worse). The reason people switched to Wisdom was not because they wanted to be "hybrids" but because the Wis-trance gave them more DPS.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 04-09-2021 at 10:18 AM.

  11. #151
    Community Member anticlimax's Avatar
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    So, since the first pass of the bow update was posted, I've been exclusively playing my archer on the test server, trying to get a feel for what I can realistically do with my build.

    Firstly, I accept that it is now probably better dps for bows and, as my build wasn't a dps before, I've seen massive gains in terms of trash mob clearing with dps by tweaking things to take all the dps boosts. Bosses seem to have less of a time to kill bonus but it's better. Also, the massive numbers being pumped out on crits because of the lag fix changes were definitely psychologically pleasing, in the short term at least.

    Then I made what could be called a 'mistake'... I went and played my old build on live again. The difference is like night and day. The Execute-instakill IPS playstyle I use isn't for everyone, but it is so much more satisfying for me knowing that I got those stars to align rather than mobs randomly dropping dead from an uber crit. My build isn't functionally the same as a furyshot deletion model either- because my build isn't dps I absolutely must hit those multi lineup executes rather than furyshots being icing on the cake of a dps build. I'm also fully aware that thrower builds were probably better suited to my playstyle but I've never wanted to use throwers and well, execute is dead for them too now so it's irrelevant.

    I've gone from feeling like I could deal with the changes to considering either reincarnating into a melee or even quitting.

    My conclusion? DPS better, FUN worse.

  12. #152
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    In their defense, that is mainly due to the lag changes though. That was probably unavoidable to some extent, although they could have increased the numbers of impacted abilities.

    Regarding the balance changes though, I hope at some point SSG learns that it's easier and less controversial to make small adjustments than rewiring everything. It was problem that bow was too bursty, but then they removed burst almost entirely (in the first iteration at least). They could just have said "mkay, bows are underperforming and too bursty, let's cut Many Shot and Ten Thousand Stars bonuses in half and give most of that back as a passive bonus" (less for TTS). Minimal effort, play styles and builds preserved, balance fixed, everybody is happy. Extensive reworks are only needed if play styles are clearly boring/bad/broken, there is no need to do them for balance reasons.

    The same could be said about the spell passes. After a lot of effort, all caster classes finally have at least some useful spells now. However, they could just have made meta magics and MCL/CL scale into epics as people wanted and been done with it two years ago. As a bonus, half of the spells that didn't get updated wouldn't be pointless filler as they are now (including several that are sorc SLAs, all persistent AoEs, the entire AM tree etc). Imagine if some of the work spent on complicated balance reworks was instead invested into making fun new abilities, or reworking boring old abilities (like half the active attacks in the game) to be more fun? For balance, just tweak the numbers.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 04-09-2021 at 01:07 PM.

  13. #153
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimax View Post
    So, since the first pass of the bow update was posted, I've been exclusively playing my archer on the test server, trying to get a feel for what I can realistically do with my build.

    Firstly, I accept that it is now probably better dps for bows and, as my build wasn't a dps before, I've seen massive gains in terms of trash mob clearing with dps by tweaking things to take all the dps boosts. Bosses seem to have less of a time to kill bonus but it's better. Also, the massive numbers being pumped out on crits because of the lag fix changes were definitely psychologically pleasing, in the short term at least.

    Then I made what could be called a 'mistake'... I went and played my old build on live again. The difference is like night and day. The Execute-instakill IPS playstyle I use isn't for everyone, but it is so much more satisfying for me knowing that I got those stars to align rather than mobs randomly dropping dead from an uber crit. My build isn't functionally the same as a furyshot deletion model either- because my build isn't dps I absolutely must hit those multi lineup executes rather than furyshots being icing on the cake of a dps build. I'm also fully aware that thrower builds were probably better suited to my playstyle but I've never wanted to use throwers and well, execute is dead for them too now so it's irrelevant.

    I've gone from feeling like I could deal with the changes to considering either reincarnating into a melee or even quitting.

    My conclusion? DPS better, FUN worse.
    +1, practically the exact same experience. Quests I was easily soloing on live were extremely difficult now on lamania too. I'll probably finally go spell caster or something i guess, maybe ED and Universal tree will fix it again but until then this preview is a step backwards for bows in epics.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post

    Regarding the balance changes though, I hope at some point SSG learns that it's easier and less controversial to make small adjustments than rewiring everything. It was problem that bow was too bursty, but then they removed burst almost entirely (in the first iteration at least). They could just have said "mkay, bows are underperforming and too bursty, let's cut Many Shot and Ten Thousand Stars bonuses in half and give most of that back as a passive bonus" (less for TTS). Minimal effort, play styles and builds preserved, balance fixed, everybody is happy. Extensive reworks are only needed if play styles are clearly boring/bad/broken, there is no need to do them for balance reasons.

    The same could be said about the spell passes. After a lot of effort, all caster classes finally have at least some useful spells now. However, they could just have made meta magics and MCL/CL scale into epics as people wanted and been done with it two years ago. As a bonus, half of the spells that didn't get updated wouldn't be pointless filler as they are now (including several that are sorc SLAs, all persistent AoEs, the entire AM tree etc). Imagine if some of the work spent on complicated balance reworks was instead invested into making fun new abilities, or reworking boring old abilities (like half the active attacks in the game) to be more fun? For balance, just tweak the numbers.
    They likely could have fixed a lot of issues with bows by doing minor tweaks every now and then, but instead chose to ignore them; to the result of massive nerfs (IPS change didn't need to affect bows, or at least affect bows as much, belt change and then no AA bow dps buff while buffing spells = proportional nerf). Irregardless of them saying how much bows needed to be fixed/buffed over the years, they've instead let them die a death by a thousand cuts and now just seem to be trying to fix everything at once but instead rushing and ignoring how most builds are actually ran and just focusing on the most generic cookie cutter ranger builds to base changes off of while also not looking at what actually makes bows fun/unique.

    And now... we have the proc changes to contend with, plus promises of HW/ED changes making it somehow make sense... I'm very skeptical given their past approach to bow changes. What's the point of waiting to do it all in one go if you don't actually look at what makes bows different to other playstyles? Taking out parts like dex to damage quite late into racial trees then replacing with... nothing? Why add a big sign saying ''major changes inbound, will fix later'' only for when the revamp comes for the whole thing to end up as ''major changes inbound, will fix later'' :/

  15. #155

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    Thanks everybody that chimed into this thread, and a special extra-thanks to those of you that tried out the Bow changes on Lamannia during Preview 2!

    We're currently taking a look at both play data and bugs, and trying to make sure things are in shape as we get closer to release.

    A few bugs we're tackling right now that I can talk about:

    Bow Strength / Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger
    A few players noticed this wasn't working on Lamannia, and we were able to track down why. However, both of these abilities relied on very old methods to try and do the things they're doing, so rather than patch those abilities up directly, we re-implemented both of them.
    • Bow Strength: Even on Live, current Bow Strength is a little flaky - When it DOES work, it gives very little feedback, and if you gain any other (SCORE)-to-damage on your Bow it goes away entirely, even if your Strength is higher than that score.
      • So, we set out to fix that. Functionally, Bow Strength will remain the same, providing STR-to-damage with Longbows and Shortbows. However, it'll act like our more recent (SCORE)-to-damage abilities, appearing on weapon examination and applying your STR modifier to damage if it's higher than your other available Damage-mods.

    • Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger: Most of this feat and its upgrades will remain the same; the specific portion that's stopped working is "and can add up to 2 points of your Strength bonus to bow damage". Like Bow Strength, even on Live this disappears if you gain another (SCORE)-to-damage, and it's really conditional and weird; that part does nothing for most people that take it.
      • So instead, we changed it to just grant +1 Damage with Longbows and Shortbows. (And, as we said, the rest of the feat remains unchanged). Further, the portions of Improved Dilettante: Ranger that upgraded your STR-bonus-to-bow-damage now grant +1 Damage with Longbows and Shortbows instead.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  16. #156
    Community Member Merfyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvesunited View Post
    This entire archer manyshot update has been about replacing Manyshot with an inferior version but making up for it by giving passive bonuses to multiple other feats. Given the large number of archer builds on live that are monksters shouldn't they get similar treatment? Ten Thousand Stars in its current form has been taken away. We're not getting it back. Yet nothing has been provided to the monkcher to compensate for its loss.
    Given Steelstar's comment above, that seems to be the case. Seems like the devs have decided to eliminate monkchers because reasons.

    *IF* this was something to do with lag, I would have expected it to be said in order to make the pill a little less bitter to swallow.

    Looks like it's finally time to eat my +20 heart out. Pity.
    Last edited by Merfyn; 04-09-2021 at 06:25 PM.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merfyn View Post
    Given Steelstar's comment above, that seems to be the case. Seems like the devs have decided to eliminate monkchers because reasons.

    *IF* this was something to do with lag, I would have expected it to be said in order to make the pill a little less bitter to swallow.

    Looks like it's finally time to eat my +20 heart out. Pity.
    I think you may be reading to much into that. I've still got some hope that the Monkcher ( which really is a pure archer build not a hybrid ) will get something to compensate for the loss of Ten Thousand Stars and for getting reduced benefit from the BAB based passive bonuses. The stated goals for the archer part of the update is to support different existing types of archers. Maybe I'm too optimistic but one of the more popular types of archers on live right now are monkchers. They've been around for many years and are part of the DDO culture. Ata point where DDO wants archers to become more popular it's not time to crush a popular archer build.

  18. #158
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    I'd say that, barring particular multiclass/non-DEX builds, Elves and Wood Elves will already be the best Archers in general, given their innate bonuses to Dexterity, increased Point Blank Shot Range, increased Ranged Sneak Attack Range, access to DEX in their trees, access to extra hit and damage with bows in their Racial tree, access to the Elven Arcane Archer tree, and access to Doubleshot in their Racial tree.

    We're fairly settled on BAB for the scaling of those feats at this point in time. It does what it's meant to in Heroics, and while it's not perfect in Epics yet, we are working on solutions for that for the near future.
    Didn't you just largely nerf these two bolded things for ranged? Seems sort of weird to call them out
    good at business

  19. #159
    Community Member IlmerSilverhilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Thanks everybody that chimed into this thread, and a special extra-thanks to those of you that tried out the Bow changes on Lamannia during Preview 2!

    We're currently taking a look at both play data and bugs, and trying to make sure things are in shape as we get closer to release.

    A few bugs we're tackling right now that I can talk about:

    Bow Strength / Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger
    A few players noticed this wasn't working on Lamannia, and we were able to track down why. However, both of these abilities relied on very old methods to try and do the things they're doing, so rather than patch those abilities up directly, we re-implemented both of them.
    • Bow Strength: Even on Live, current Bow Strength is a little flaky - When it DOES work, it gives very little feedback, and if you gain any other (SCORE)-to-damage on your Bow it goes away entirely, even if your Strength is higher than that score.
      • So, we set out to fix that. Functionally, Bow Strength will remain the same, providing STR-to-damage with Longbows and Shortbows. However, it'll act like our more recent (SCORE)-to-damage abilities, appearing on weapon examination and applying your STR modifier to damage if it's higher than your other available Damage-mods.

    • Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger: Most of this feat and its upgrades will remain the same; the specific portion that's stopped working is "and can add up to 2 points of your Strength bonus to bow damage". Like Bow Strength, even on Live this disappears if you gain another (SCORE)-to-damage, and it's really conditional and weird; that part does nothing for most people that take it.
      • So instead, we changed it to just grant +1 Damage with Longbows and Shortbows. (And, as we said, the rest of the feat remains unchanged). Further, the portions of Improved Dilettante: Ranger that upgraded your STR-bonus-to-bow-damage now grant +1 Damage with Longbows and Shortbows instead.
    I like this change, Ill begin to use HE: Ranger dilly instead of barbarian on my build!
    Ilmer Silverhilt, 36pt (Half) Elf Rogue13/Fighter6/Monk1. The Kighter
    Mesmerita d'Jorasco, 36pt PDK Bard20. Can't talk, TR'ing!
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    The Adventure Pack(200), Cannith. Join us!

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  20. #160
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Is there going to be a third lammania for this update?

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