Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 240
  1. #101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrzain View Post
    Wood-Elf…. Forest's Finesse ????

    Now that Bow are getting DEX to Damage is this Enhancement going to do ANYHTING for Bows?
    Nope. On Lamannia, this skill now reads "You may use Dexterity to damage Longswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, and Falchions."

    It still grants DEX to four other weapons, so there is still a purpose for it to exist. It might mean that a Bow user doesn't take it, and that's also fine. Those builds now have 1AP to spend elsewhere.
    Last edited by Steelstar; 04-07-2021 at 05:36 PM.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  2. #102
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    765

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    The new BAB-based MP/DS also hurts monks because contrary to PnP they don't actually get full attack bonus with monk weapons, just +atk.
    I thought monks get a 1:1 BAB while centered with the Flurry of Blows feat.

  3. #103
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    942

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    I thought monks get a 1:1 BAB while centered with the Flurry of Blows feat.
    You are welcome to test it, but iirc it only adds regular to hit, not base attack bonus.

  4. #104
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    210

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Nope. On Lamannia, this skill now reads "You may use Dexterity to damage Longswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, and Falchions."

    It still grants DEX to four other weapons, so there is still a purpose for it to exist. It might mean that a Bow user doesn't take it, and that's also fine. Those builds now have 1AP to spend elsewhere.
    I have a suggestion:

    Maybe using these race specific enhancements are one way to go to make your bow feats scale off your character level rather than your BAB? I mean, if certain races are suited to specific builds due to their enhancements, there should be no reason to not make elves the best archers in general (like how tieflings are the best fire sorcerers, dragonborn rock as evocationists, aasimar as tanks [or basically everything else that lacks self-heal], etc.).

  5. #105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    I have a suggestion:

    Maybe using these race specific enhancements are one way to go to make your bow feats scale off your character level rather than your BAB? I mean, if certain races are suited to specific builds due to their enhancements, there should be no reason to not make elves the best archers in general (like how tieflings are the best fire sorcerers, dragonborn rock as evocationists, aasimar as tanks [or basically everything else that lacks self-heal], etc.).
    I'd say that, barring particular multiclass/non-DEX builds, Elves and Wood Elves will already be the best Archers in general, given their innate bonuses to Dexterity, increased Point Blank Shot Range, increased Ranged Sneak Attack Range, access to DEX in their trees, access to extra hit and damage with bows in their Racial tree, access to the Elven Arcane Archer tree, and access to Doubleshot in their Racial tree.

    We're fairly settled on BAB for the scaling of those feats at this point in time. It does what it's meant to in Heroics, and while it's not perfect in Epics yet, we are working on solutions for that for the near future.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  6. #106
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ghallanda
    Posts
    553

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    Going to stand on my soap box and pontificate for a moment.

    Monkchers aren't dead as it were.

    Currently on live you could build a variety of different Moncher builds that could be used for various rolls within a quest. Monchers that cleans trash, monkchers that great for end-bosses. Ones in between trash clearing and red-named killers, batman style monkers that can handle traps... I would almost argue in the overall scheme of ranged DPS before this change a Monkcher was usually not a bad choice for what you wanted to do.

    These changes have created a conundrum for Monkchers. Virtually any solid ranged build can now clear trash, even Monkchers designed to have that burst attack vs. Red-Names. So why build all these various Monkcher builds when you get the most benefit from bursty nature of the Fury of the Wild Monkcher. Yes there 20 second burst DPS is lower, but there over all DPS is higher over say 40 seconds and when you are fighting a mob with 2 million HP higher DPS over 40 seconds is more important than the burst for 20 seconds.

    Which leads to the problem to all the periphery monkcher characters that people have enjoyed playing, myself included. Do I go to the monkcher designed to take on red-named mobs, giving up on some defense, do I go to a Dex built Ranger/Rogue, do I want play a DPS pure ranger? Do I give up ranger and go elf fighter.

    Even though there are now better versions of many Monkcher builds there is still at least one FOTM monkcher that is still very viable. So monkchers are not dead yet. They are going to be built differently and look a lot more alike.
    I have to ask the question, what are you talking about? What is this monk anti-red-named burst ability that isn't available to other classes? The ability that monk levels gave to archery was Ten Thousand Stars. That's gone. What monk enhancement or feat supports archery now?

  7. #107
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    210

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    I'd say that, barring particular multiclass/non-DEX builds, Elves and Wood Elves will already be the best Archers in general, given their innate bonuses to Dexterity, increased Point Blank Shot Range, increased Ranged Sneak Attack Range, access to DEX in their trees, access to extra hit and damage with bows in their Racial tree, access to the Elven Arcane Archer tree, and access to Doubleshot in their Racial tree.
    Well, unless you are a ranger. DWS has all the increased range for PBS and SA you need (and capstone unlimited, which renders elven bonuses useless), you can grab AA much less point-intensive there, the +3%x2 is only for wood elves (we need to make that distinction nowadays), the importance of dex is arguable with archers (lack of battle trance, the only ranged ability outside Shadow Dancer that uses dex for something else than hit/damage is Headshot of DWS for its DC), and therefore as a ranger, you can switch all the goodies of the Elves that has been now made much less impressive into other races and their enhancements... like warforged with +15 Ranged Power and +3 damage via improved PA + heavy draw, or humans with their action boosts, access to dexterity inside and outside action boosts, an additional feat, increase in PBS and SA range and even included sneak attack to benefit from, or tiefling to double down on fire spell power for fire arrows and additional fire damage per hit...

    I take from these thoughts, that elves may have been a hard time to double down on a bow build, and more act as a replacement to rangers, than a definitive addition to it. The class with the bow icon.



    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We're fairly settled on BAB for the scaling of those feats at this point in time. It does what it's meant to in Heroics, and while it's not perfect in Epics yet, we are working on solutions for that for the near future.
    I'm absolutely OK that you want this to be the default. But as so many things in this game, I also think that there can be a workaround for the less BAB-focused builds. Asking for my khorvaire elven wizard 18/rogue 2 AA that loves to CC stuff with wizard spells and therefore shouldn't use any version of Tenser's.


    EDIT: Like how certain class trees like Warchanter and Warpriest/-soul increases your BAB to your character level and EK which has a toggle for it.






    The team already mentioned that they will address the BAB-problems in epics with the ED-pass, and I will wait for it. Yet it doesn't mean to me, that these have to be the only solutions to it.




    Great work on the update so far and ty for answering my suggestion. Tbh, I just expected it to be read and never mentioned. ^^'
    Last edited by Pandjed; 04-07-2021 at 07:09 PM.

  8. #108
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snormal View Post
    1) I was only talking about the crit still being superior. Even if there was a bow with 1-20/x15 crit, it's possible for it to still be worse than a standard crit bow depending on the mods

    2) I'm not suggesting how you should feel, that's totally up to you. I just disagree with your assessment, which doesn't make you automatically wrong

    3) Re: education. I have a Master's degree and I know people who make more than me with no university at all. It doesn't bother me, and if people that get paid less than me got paid more, that also would not bother me. YMMV
    This is a nerf to those bows, it's not a matter of opinion nor up to debate. They still "being superior"* doesn't change that fact.

    You're gonna argue less educated people make more money than you? Fine, education is not a perfect example, how about the combination of luck and effort vs the return you get?

    Nerfing ultra-rare items that take an absurd amount of grind to obtain (allegedly based on the difficulty to balance further design around existing expanded crit range items) warrants at the very least a buff on said items to compensate.

    *About those bows being superior. For the vast majority of new/middle ground players Barovian bow will beat Silver easily.

    EThornlord was only remotely useful from lv 20 to 23, but it was not worth to slot it with a Sentient Jewel compared to Pinion, for just those 3 quick levels.

    Leaving EThornlord's original threat range would have given a potential reason to pick it over Pinion for epic leveling, for the VERY FEW players that actually have it, given the hellish and unreasonable grind needed to get it.

    How that would be anything but a show of appreciation for veterans is unclear. Do we really expect the meta to be flooded with Epic Thornlords because of how good that +5% crit range would be despite the inferior base damage and non-existant damage effects?

    Same goes to a lesser degree for the other bows in a way proportionate to their rarity. At the very least toss some of the very popular xd6 damage dice on them to at least pretend you're compensating for taking something away from your veteran players.

    P.S. @Steelstar: yeah Elves are good with bows unless you're a ranger in which case they fall down far and hard.
    Last edited by FengXian; 04-07-2021 at 07:28 PM.
    Cannith - Juzam, Fighter 8 Ranger 6 Monk 6 AA/ Orocarn, Wraith 12 Stalwart Defender 6 Rogue 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Alleanza degli Uomini Liberi/Guardiani di Eberron

  9. #109
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    90

    Default

    So far all I see is them redistributing manyshots burst power and...nothing else? They increase the animation but then remove basically every attack speed increase for bows in the game and dial back crit modifiers for raid bows that made people actually want to play an archer over the insanely powerful crossbow?

    It’s like you spend months of effort and they are still not any more viable and still far, far worse than any other ranged option that exists and- what did 10k stars ever do to you? Didn’t you say that you didn’t want the monk splits that pick up a bow to be too far one way or another? So you remove the only synergy the monk class would have which removes them from existence??

    I suppose anyone who wants to use a bow should really just wait for Horizon Walker because after all this effort...bows still suck and there are now less options. And yes I’m aware of the slight tweaks you are trying to make the bow paladin and divine classes better with bows. Again after all that effort, just using the inquisitor enhancement to make crossbow your favored weapon is better because you will actually be able to contribute. Nothing about these changes put bows in a better place then they were overall.

  10. #110
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,631

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    I'd say that, barring particular multiclass/non-DEX builds, Elves and Wood Elves will already be the best Archers in general
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandjed View Post
    the importance of dex is arguable with archers (lack of battle trance, the only ranged ability outside Shadow Dancer that uses dex for something else than hit/damage is Headshot of DWS for its DC)
    Yes, this. Making Elves the best at using the worst combat stat isnt really much of a feather in their cap.

    No archer worth his salt is going to be DEX based. There's no reason to, it offers nothing over other stats. Nothing scales on DEX, nothing pairs with DEX. It's going to be reserved for first-life F2P builds with no better options. Even pure Rangers are going to go WIS based DWS+Falcon. Its just far and away superior to any approach for building a DEX archer, you get 1.5 stat to dmg and lots of useful enhancements, and you can Frog in Epic. And of course multiclass divines will go WIS or CHA, and EK will go INT.

    Unless HW comes out and its an obligate DEX based tree and offers some more incentive for DEX, I dont see that changing, either.

  11. #111
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Yes, this. Making Elves the best at using the worst combat stat isnt really much of a feather in their cap.

    No archer worth his salt is going to be DEX based. There's no reason to, it offers nothing over other stats. Nothing scales on DEX, nothing pairs with DEX. It's going to be reserved for first-life F2P builds with no better options. Even pure Rangers are going to go WIS based DWS+Falcon. Its just far and away superior to any approach for building a DEX archer, you get 1.5 stat to dmg and lots of useful enhancements, and you can Frog in Epic. And of course multiclass divines will go WIS or CHA, and EK will go INT.

    Unless HW comes out and its an obligate DEX based tree and offers some more incentive for DEX, I dont see that changing, either.
    Looking at a Dex Trance probably and i agree it isnt the best way to go. And new abilities with DCs based on any of the possible appropriate stats a bow can use.

    I thought about a ranged Str Trance but i think Str can still stack the highest(?).
    Last edited by Coffey; 04-07-2021 at 11:34 PM.

  12. #112
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Falc Wis trance should also be moved down in the tree like other trances are.

  13. #113
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Havocthedemon View Post
    So far all I see is them redistributing manyshots burst power and...nothing else? They increase the animation but then remove basically every attack speed increase for bows in the game and dial back crit modifiers for raid bows that made people actually want to play an archer over the insanely powerful crossbow?

    It’s like you spend months of effort and they are still not any more viable and still far, far worse than any other ranged option that exists and- what did 10k stars ever do to you? Didn’t you say that you didn’t want the monk splits that pick up a bow to be too far one way or another? So you remove the only synergy the monk class would have which removes them from existence??

    I suppose anyone who wants to use a bow should really just wait for Horizon Walker because after all this effort...bows still suck and there are now less options. And yes I’m aware of the slight tweaks you are trying to make the bow paladin and divine classes better with bows. Again after all that effort, just using the inquisitor enhancement to make crossbow your favored weapon is better because you will actually be able to contribute. Nothing about these changes put bows in a better place then they were overall.
    A bit over the top in saying there's nothing else - depending on feat/class choices you can get (by level 30) an additional +1 to crit range and multiplier, 37-45 doubleshot, 50- 58 ranged power. As for all the attack speed increases on live - they don't work as they hit the cap, at least now the attack speed enhancement actually does increase your rate of fire properly.

  14. #114
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    I'd say that, barring particular multiclass/non-DEX builds, Elves and Wood Elves will already be the best Archers in general, given their innate bonuses to Dexterity, increased Point Blank Shot Range, increased Ranged Sneak Attack Range, access to DEX in their trees, access to extra hit and damage with bows in their Racial tree, access to the Elven Arcane Archer tree, and access to Doubleshot in their Racial tree.

    .
    While elves do, indeed, get access to Arcane archer (for 14APs), all races will have access to the new bow tree (for 0APs). If that turns out to be better than AA, I can see the non-ranger elf archers made even less relevant (if they are relevant at all at the moment).

    The 14AP buy-in is slightly mitigated at present by the fact that the investment also goes some way towards getting dex to damage in the elf tree. Dex to damage now being on all bows makes that consideration irrelevant.

    Will AA (needing a 14AP investment and elf race) be competitive with the new bow tree which needs neither 14APs OR elf? Or will AA really only be used by rangers in future.
    He left the name, at which the world grew pale.

  15. #115
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    63

    Default

    First i like to say, that i played a Monkcher for 7 Years now, since i got my Completionists in 2014. It was the most fun build i tried in DDO and altho i have several alts none of those made half as much fun as my monkcher.

    It´s utter impossible for me to state eloquently how ****ed i am with this update. Just dont touch Bows at all whould be a way better decission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    We have a number of trees that support Bows, and we don't plan on using this pass to shift their relative strengths or focuses.
    • Zen Archery Monks: Usually a hybrid of some kind, we want to make sure they're supported also without becoming disproportionately better or worse.

    That all said, let's dive into what's changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Itemized List of total Bow Changes

    • The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.
    My testing on Lam provided, that Monkcher is outride dead. There is nothing that compensates for the loss of 10k stars. Nothing at all, the least you need to do is give the 10k stars values distribute back into passive damage as you did with manyshot. Since it is up 30s and has a cd of 60s, the bonus just needs to be halfed down, like 2.5x your Monklevel to Doubleshot and Wisdom Modifier to Ranged Power. This could be done for Shurikans as well btw. just a plain change to the feat. This is compensated by the 20% DS from Ranger T5 DWS / AA Capstone and Paladin RP from Righteous Command and Favored Weapon Dmg so its just a plain compensation for the 6+ Monk levels compared to Paladin/Ranger levels which whould make the Monkcher a viable and not "disproportionately better" build choice, but whould stop it from beeing a "disproportionately worse" one.

    I tested on Lam and my monkcher needs about 1.74 times a s long for a Kobold as a pure Ranger or Paladin Split. Those two as pure Dex Builds are the ones you want ppl to play it seems, since nothing compares to them for endgame. The Inquisitive and Thrower seem to perform better on the Boss Kobolds compared to Bow users, since they still have their Bursts. Even when you sneak nerfed them with the Blindindg Speed fix without compensating on Quickdraw or Rapid Reload. So the whole idea of making Bows a reliable choice for endgame is just dead on arrival.


    And quite obvious and very laughable, with all the feats that now read ""When using a Longbow or Shortbow, you gain X" the thing you stated about the crit profiles of certain Bows and BaB scaling to get bows somewhere playable in heroics and endgame didn´t change, you just moved it into some feats: way to go. The sole reason for this is, as i stated before (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6418137), you made Bows the weakest weapon in Game, since you combined the downsides of onehanded fighting with the downsides of twohanded fighting.
    The mechaniks of the PnP Version of D&D is a roundbased fight with all your attacks on your turn, and the Bow works exactly as a one-handed Longsword in this regard. So the Attack speed you need is the same as a onehanded Longsword in DDO (with the Speed and Ability Bonuses from Single-Weapon-Fighting contributed onto the weapon itself or into the Bow Feats like Point-Blank-Shot, Rapid Shot,...) to make it even.

    so long and thanks for all the fish

  16. #116
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    20

    Default Monk archer

    wow.... no more 10k stars?? Monkcher is dead... Why would you do this t.t

  17. #117
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,198

    Default What really matters...

    Is that after this pass bow can compete with other ranged, and they can all compete with melee and casters, at the very least at cap if not during leveling.

    WITHOUT having to rely on Horizon Walker.

    Because Archery isn't (well, should't be) a niche combat style relying on a P2P Universal Tree. HW HAS TO be a sidegrade.

    On this your work should be judged. And as far as I'm concerned it will be. I hope players don't forget, either way.

    We have put up with the same bugs for over 10 years, and you still couldn't fix 66% of them, better do a pretty dang good work on everything else if you want to call this a "Bow Pass".
    Last edited by FengXian; 04-08-2021 at 08:23 AM.
    Cannith - Juzam, Fighter 8 Ranger 6 Monk 6 AA/ Orocarn, Wraith 12 Stalwart Defender 6 Rogue 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Alleanza degli Uomini Liberi/Guardiani di Eberron

  18. #118
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    212

    Default Where do bows stand now?

    After testing a 20 Ranger DWS during preview 1, bows remained lackluster. Bows are in a better spot in this preview. I still wish the 1.5 double shot and range power granted by Manyshot and Rapid Shot scaled better into epics, but I've seen Steelstar mention that it will in the future, so I have hope. If improvements to BAB in epic levels are made, bows will be in a great spot.
    Epicsoul | Omnisoul | Ultrasoul - Assistant to the Regional Manager of Lava Divers

  19. #119
    Community Member xBunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    East Europe
    Posts
    168

    Default Nerf Manyshot, instead removing it

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.
    Remove the combat style's over-reliance on burst damage by eliminating Manyshot and adding most of that power back to bow stats in other places.
    • As we've said for years, Manyshot's design is one of the main sticking points in being able to increase overall Bow damage. Your damage is multiplied so much 1/6 of the time that it's difficult to buff the other 5/6 without ridiculous hoops, connected cooldowns, and weird clauses. It's time for it to go in favor of more overall power for bows. As you'll see detailed below, we've changed Manyshot to an attack, and added more stable Ranged Power and Doubleshot into Bow feats. Between those and the new Manyshot attack, you should (by the time we go Live) be doing better damage overall than before, just distributed more evenly across your attacks.

    How about nerfing Manyshot instead of removing it. Thus you will buff 5/6 of the time without ridiculous hoops for 1/6, and will preserve a bow playstyle, relying on burst damage. Just nerf bonuses it gives for 30% or 50% and we will be fine. Less changes, less bugs.
    Actively playing since 2018 on Cannith
    Mediacore player, having: 20 Heroic, 6 Iconic, 15 Epic, 52 Reaper Points

  20. #120
    Community Member Firebreed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FengXian View Post
    Is that after this pass bow can compete with other ranged, and they can all compete with melee and casters, at the very least at cap if not during leveling.

    WITHOUT having to rely on Horizon Walker.

    Because Archery isn't (well, should't be) a niche combat style relying on a P2P Universal Tree. HW HAS TO be a sidegrade.

    On this your work should be judged. And as far as I'm concerned it will be. I hope players don't forget, either way.

    We have put up with the same bugs for over 10 years, and you still couldn't fix 66% of them, better do a pretty dang good work on everything else if you want to call this a "Bow Pass".
    Absolutely based.

Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload