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  1. #21
    Community Member Nugaot's Avatar
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    Why are several bug fixes marked as lammania only? Will these fixes not be coming to live?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Clarification questions on new many shot:
    It appears that only the first arrow+doubleshots procs adrenaline/hunts end, whereas the 2nd/3rd arrow +their doubleshots do not. However, occasionally the second arrow, but not the 3rd does proc adrenaline (possibly lag related?)

    Is only the first shot or all 3 indended to proc adrenaline?
    Is the occasional 2nd shot procing adrenaline a bug?
    It is intended that only the first procs Adrenaline, a side effect of the performance changes.

    It's possible the 2nd shot can occasionally go off before Adrenaline removal resolves. This is a bug, though I'm not sure if it's something we'll be able to fix in time for Live.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
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    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nugaot View Post
    Why are several bug fixes marked as lammania only? Will these fixes not be coming to live?
    They're notes about things that changed between last Lamannia and this Lamannia, fixing things that have not appeared on Live yet; we don't need Live release notes for those things.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  4. #24
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    I like the look of this. The addition of some heroic crit range is really nice to see. I agree with droid327 in that I'm not sure about the charge regeneration on Manyshot. I'm guessing it's to bring back some of the burst saving that people were complaining about losing with the Manyshot change, but it just sounds like you'll want to use all or nothing with this change.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    - BAB scaling (and not attribute-based) is still a mistake. I laid it out before...it will scale fine through Heroics, but then fall off a cliff in Epics once you cap your BAB at 25, while other martial builds are scaling 2.0 or 3.0 or 3.5x on mainstat, or getting bonus Doubleshot on mainstat, and getting huge boosts to their efficacy with attribute statflation at 29. Going to 1.5x BAB isnt actually fixing that, it just means they'll be supergods in Heroic and then still fall off a cliff in late Epic. Just make it +0.5x stat-to-dmg, if you dont want to make it scale on an attribute itself...that will scale better and still fits the new combat paradigm.
    There are a number of ways to get BAB-equal-to-character-level in heroics. Epics itself is a different story, but: as something that affects a lot more than just Bow builds, and as an Epic-exacerbated issue, we'll be addressing that with the upcoming Epic Destiny pass.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  6. #26
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Just leave it every 12 secs you regain a charge, regardless of use.
    I agree - I don't like the idea of "resetting" the cool down every time I use it - stopping to check if I need to wait X seconds or start over...

    I really like the idea of having 3 charges to use (or not use) at will.
    The resettable charge time is bad (and hard to code I would think) - let the recharge happen one per 12s (or 16s or 20s) and call it good. We can then meter the use of the 0-3 charges and not have to micro manage the recharge time.
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.
    [*]The following Longbows and Shortbows have had their Critical Threat Ranges reduced from 18-20 to 19-20:[*]
    • Pinion, Cloud-Piercer
    • Sapphire Sting
    • Epic Sapphire Sting
    • Bow of the Elements (Air)
    • Silver Longbow
    • Epic Thornlord
    • Unwavering Ardency
    • Bow of Sinew
    • Collapsible Shortbow

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    It is intended that only the first procs Adrenaline, a side effect of the performance changes.
    Hmm, as far as I can tell you have effectively managed to remove all the interesting parts of playing a bow user without adding anywhere near enough damage for them to actually compete.
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  8. #28
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    nvm
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-07-2021 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunviking View Post
    Slaying Arrows are dead now, you can spend the 2 AP for something else (if you are staying ranger).
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    It is intended that only the first procs Adrenaline, a side effect of the performance changes.

    It's possible the 2nd shot can occasionally go off before Adrenaline removal resolves. This is a bug, though I'm not sure if it's something we'll be able to fix in time for Live.
    Welp with only the 1st shot of many shot getting the proc off adrenaline then slaying arrows is boosted back up in relative effectiveness; still a huge drop from the old manyshot + slayer arrow.

  10. #30
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    I like this iteration of Manyshot a LOT more than the previous one, and the changes to criticals should help bring damage back up, as all previous tests showed slower quest completions during Preview 1.

    I'd rather see that one recharge every 12 seconds irrespective of usage. I'd even accept a slightly longer cooldown if it meant not having to "hold back" just because holding back means you'll get that second/third charge back slightly faster.
    I have a button. I wanna mash that button until the game says I shouldn't (and even then) and not feel sad that I did.

    So only the first arrow is supposed to proc Adrenaline, hmm.
    I guess that means Slaying Arrow is still worth looking at for that purpose alone.

    I want to reiterate that scaling off BaB feels a bit off given every other kind of scaling is done directly on stats (or skills).
    I can accept that this much Ranged Power off a level 2 feat might be much, but every Shuriken build and its sister has had access to Shuriken Expertise, at level 1, and your latest added feat, Simple Thrown Expertise, seems to point that you're not against the idea either.
    Give bows a Shuriken Expertise clone.

    Any chance you could add something to Bow Strength, making it worthwhile to get or earn? I'd suggest something like an Insightful bonus to damage scaling off Dex or Strength, picking the lower of the two (halved, of course).
    That way it wouldn't stack with Trances or equipment while still giving it some use and making the feat - that's fairly hard to fetch outside Ranger - shine.
    Enthusiasm enthusiast enthusiast.

  11. #31
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    I agree - I don't like the idea of "resetting" the cool down every time I use it - stopping to check if I need to wait X seconds or start over...

    I really like the idea of having 3 charges to use (or not use) at will.
    The resettable charge time is bad (and hard to code I would think) - let the recharge happen one per 12s (or 16s or 20s) and call it good. We can then meter the use of the 0-3 charges and not have to micro manage the recharge time.
    Hello-

    I play around with my Lv 11 Ranger in HE Feast or Famine (same alt - same quest as last preview).

    Two steps forward for sure. Feels like the standard bow use is a little more deadly.
    The 3 charge Manyshot is nice - allows a little more tactical planning on my part - which is fun.

    1) the charges are coming aback 1 per 12 secs - this feels right - it DOES NOT reset the 12 sec timer every time you use a charge - please keep it this way!
    I would use one charge - could to ~10 and use another - almost always had 1 charge ready to use.
    2) often there is a "1" on the all the cooldown abilities - you can use one and they disappear - but the timer icon just floats there on all items with cool downs (even pots)

    This is much better IMO -
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    It is intended that only the first procs Adrenaline, a side effect of the performance changes.

    It's possible the 2nd shot can occasionally go off before Adrenaline removal resolves. This is a bug, though I'm not sure if it's something we'll be able to fix in time for Live.
    I seemed to be getting the occasional 2nd shot kicking in for the Hunt's End feat from Shiradi as well, not on every use of it but occasionally.

  13. #33
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    Post rewritten after a better understanding of the doubleshot changes.
    Last edited by GoldyGopher; 04-06-2021 at 09:04 PM.

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    3) Epic bow damage is overall getting neutered this patch by combat changes due to lack of adrenaline regeneration, as are most builds for melee damage and throwers. You may want to look at adrenaline recharge mechanics, and probably also set it to a given time frame. FoTW is the epic dps ED, and Adrenaline is approximately 50% of epic ranged dps, and half recharge rate (melee) and 1/3 to 1/4th recharge rate (ranged and thrown) neuters *.*
    This one really has me worried. If both the one hit non-damage effects AND Adrenaline AND burst damage is taking a hit on bows (and other ranged) then this entire update will effectively be a pretty large nerf to bows which needed exactly the opposite.

    Maybe simply change the 33% chance to a 100% chance to regain Adrenaline?
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  15. #35
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Attack Speed
    The current animations cap firing speed with Bows at about 0.69sec per shot, or about 87 shots per minute; any bonuses you get that would make you faster than that simply don't work right now. While we're fixing that, we don't want to significantly increase that on a stable basis (though we do want the boosts you do get to do what they say they do). In the past, we've sometimes added extraneous speed sources for Bows as a way to help prop up the combat style; this didn't work (because of the animation problem), but with that issue fixed it's time to pull back on some of those.

    To get from the new endgame baseline speed to an attack speed of 0.69sec per shot, you only need 25% attack speed boost. We're planning for that to come from two sources at the moment

    With Rapid shot (auto granted via ranger) and Aerania's 20% enhancement. I'm still only pulling 76 Attacks per minute. Which is like 0.785 sec per shot. As a pure ranger- wood elf- level 30.
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  16. #36
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    It seems like Manyshot is indeed recharging regardless of use, which is good. Just fix the tooltip, not the mechanic I was hitting it every 6 seconds (Sniper+Many) and still getting one back every other cycle.

    Bow combat feels super punchy now, tested at L15 with Sharn gear on a 13 Rgr 2 FvS. Way too dependent on a Trance, without it I felt super slow. Too dependent on AF stacks too, IPS was a total nerfstorm, which makes it feel slow since you gotta charge up before you feel effective (and Dshots dont double-stack you anymore), and if you have to start moving around a lot you feel extremely weak. Lag still bad, so hard to test hit-for-hit. Could do some really good burst damage though. Sniper and Many are basically ranged OHKOs at-level Elite, and combine them against champs etc. Getting some satisfying burst damage with crit+dshot, taking down red-names surprisingly fast. Throw in a Merciful Shot in afterwards for even more. Feels like a "high value target" specialist. Trash damage feels a little slow if you get a string of bad rolls, and then suddenly gib them. Surprisingly effective against Constructs (Members Only elite) even with their high fort, though now its harder to tell Crits from Dstrikes just as a damage spike.

    Suggestion: Shot on the Run should reduce the AF delay to 1s. Its an underwhelming feat right now as-is, especially for the cost - but that cost makes it a good place to make AF more playable.

    It feels like bow combat is intended to be more strategic now...its slower, hits harder per-shot, Manyshot is an active attack now, you have to stance dance IPS+AF...but its hard to be strategic with your shots when you randomly kill something with a dshot+crit, and then your next attack goes wasted or mistargeted. And the slower ROF makes lining up IPS multihits a lot harder, and things sometimes circle around sideways before your attack activates, and it goes wasted. I'd really like to see the stance dance aspect addressed, the IPS nerf feels like a total unnecessary albatross to this iteration of bow combat. If you werent penalized for being in IPS then it would become a natural "IPS for trash, swap to AF for tougher targets" strategy that'd feel a lot more fluid.
    Last edited by droid327; 04-06-2021 at 04:58 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Lag still bad, so hard to test hit-for-hit.
    That one really has me worried. If lag is bad playing a heroic quest on elite solo on Lam within hours of the server coming up - ugh.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    It seems like Manyshot is indeed recharging regardless of use, which is good. Just fix the tooltip, not the mechanic I was hitting it every 6 seconds (Sniper+Many) and still getting one back every other cycle.

    Bow combat feels super punchy now, tested at L15 with Sharn gear on a 13 Rgr 2 FvS. Way too dependent on a Trance, without it I felt super slow. Too dependent on AF stacks too, IPS was a total nerfstorm, which makes it feel slow since you gotta charge up before you feel effective (and Dshots dont double-stack you anymore), and if you have to start moving around a lot you feel extremely weak. Lag still bad, so hard to test hit-for-hit. Could do some really good burst damage though. Sniper and Many are basically ranged OHKOs at-level Elite, and combine them against champs etc. Getting some satisfying burst damage with crit+dshot, taking down red-names surprisingly fast. Feels like a "high value target" specialist. Trash damage feels a little slow if you get a string of bad rolls, and then suddenly gib them. Surprisingly effective against Constructs (Members Only elite) even with their high fort, though now its harder to tell Crits from Dstrikes just as a damage spike.

    Suggestion: Shot on the Run should reduce the AF delay to 1s. Its an underwhelming feat right now as-is, especially for the cost - but that cost makes it a good place to make AF more playable.
    Have you tried R1 as well?

    It sounds like clearing time will be pretty slow if you can mostly just kill one mob every 6 seconds on Elite - considering other builds are clearing 3+ mobs within that time frame (or faster) on R1 [melee, nukers, insta killers, inquisitives].
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    5) Thanks for the amusement. You managed to neuter everything about bows. Their instakill procs from AA and their Shiradi procs with combat many-hit revamp, their burst manyshot/10k, their sustained damage as above calculations, their epic damage with adrenaline recharge many-hit revamp, and their heroic damage. That's full-on amazing. I don't think you missed nerfing anything about them.
    They try to cosmetic these changes, dunno why. They should just tell us, that they wanted to nerf it, because bows cause 90% of the lags, but removing from the game would cause very bad taste in the players' mouth, so they had to be creative with the changes. Showing this nerf as "upgrade" and a fix was their best idea.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post

    There was lots of lagged moments during testing. Interact with a door, lag for 10 seconds. Mobs spawn, 10 seconds freeze lag.
    Thats the second post here that mentions lagging. Very concerning.
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