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  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default U49 Preview 2: Bow Combat Style Revamp

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Hey! So, now that we're moving into Update 49, it's time to take a look at the Bow Combat Style Changes. The Main Thread spells out a lot of the specific changes, but this is a complicated pass with a lot of moving parts, so we wanted to walk through the reasoning behind things. Here's a list of what's changing and why.

    For Update 49, we're looking at revamping the Bow combat style. For a long time, Bows have been difficult to balance on our end, and as a result have either been extremely strong relative to other builds or (as is the case now) been trailing behind a lot of other builds. We're aiming to rebuild the structure of the combat style, fix some bugs, and ultimately make the Bow combat style easier to balance and stronger overall.

    As a note: As we've mentioned before, there is a Bow-themed Universal Enhancement Tree (Horizon Walker) scheduled for later this year. At the moment, that is tentatively scheduled for Update 50, after these changes, and we'll be rebalancing our plans for that tree after this is done.

    As usual with these threads, all of this is subject to change. Please note that we're still in the process of DPS and bug testing - While we have goals laid out below, we're still working on making sure that we meet them, and many things (especially specific numbers) will likely change before Live.

    Goals

    1. Add an animation set to Bow combat that allows us to balance the Bow combat style without incredibly-high BAB values that break the speed cap.
      • As I'll get into below, the current Bow animations are problematic for balance as well as certain features of DDO's engine. They need to be replaced.
    2. Buff bow builds in Heroic levels.
      • Bows attack a lot slower than other weapons on Live currently, and that's especially problematic in lower Heroics. We're looking to improve that with a mix of speed and power.
    3. Buff bow builds in Epic by retaining the existing maximum attack speed but adding more power.
      • Conversely, for game performance reasons we don't want Bow builds shooting much (if any) faster than they currently do. However, we do want endgame bow builds to be stronger, so that means making each shot hit harder.
    4. Remove the combat style's over-reliance on burst damage by eliminating Manyshot and adding most of that power back to bow stats in other places.
      • As we've said for years, Manyshot's design is one of the main sticking points in being able to increase overall Bow damage. Your damage is multiplied so much 1/6 of the time that it's difficult to buff the other 5/6 without ridiculous hoops, connected cooldowns, and weird clauses. It's time for it to go in favor of more overall power for bows. As you'll see detailed below, we've changed Manyshot to an attack, and added more stable Ranged Power and Doubleshot into Bow feats. Between those and the new Manyshot attack, you should (by the time we go Live) be doing better damage overall than before, just distributed more evenly across your attacks.
    5. Diversify the number of viable builds that can use Longbows and Shortbows.
      • Right now, the only builds that are really close to viable with Bows are Rangers (and, to a lesser extent, Fighters). There are other trees that can make use of Bows, and we'd like those to be more viable than they currently are (even if they end up trailing behind the sheer power of Bow-dedicated Fighters and Rangers).
    6. Don't significantly shift the role or strength of individual Enhancement Trees - Let the pass' other features bring all of them up together.
      • We have a number of trees that support Bows, and we don't plan on using this pass to shift their relative strengths or focuses.
        • Deepwood Stalker: DPS-focused tree that balances Melee and Bows.
        • Arcane Archer: Crowd Control-focused tree with a secondary Elemental DPS theme.
        • Kensei: A Bow DPS tree (if you want it to be, anyway).
        • Knight of the Chalice: A Favored Weapon DPS-focused tree, and if Bows are your Favored Weapon, it can work. (We've made one change for this tree below, to aid in the fact that acquiring Bow feats is harder for Paladin than Fighter or Ranger).
        • Warpriest/War Soul: A hybrid DPS/Casting tree with the full backing of Divine Healing spells. (We're still talking about whether or not we feel it necessary to add Bow-specific bonuses to these two trees to support Silver Flame Cleric/FvS.)
        • Zen Archery Monks: Usually a hybrid of some kind, we want to make sure they're supported also without becoming disproportionately better or worse.


    That all said, let's dive into what's changing.
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  2. #2
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Animations

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Animation Set
    The two most baseline elements in your attack speed are Animation Length and Base Attack Bonus. As your BAB goes up, we apply different multipliers (usually increasing as you level and your BAB goes up) to the animation speed. This isn't really displayed in-game anywhere, it's just considered to be your baseline attack speed and is also used to let us adjust for animations that may be faster or slower than we need them to be. It wouldn't be terribly useful to dive into the relation between those two numbers, but the core of a lot of Bow's attack issues is this:

    1. The existing Bow animation is terribly, painfully slow. Much slower than you ever see in game.
    2. This is fixed by using Base Attack Bonus' speed to make the animation much faster (...but still slower than most other attacks in the game).
    3. DDO's engine won't let animations go beyond a certain level of speed, and this BAB-speed adjustment on Live brings Bow users most of the way to cap at level 1, and a Deepwood Stalker with Haste easily made it over that cap with no other boosts.


    So. We made a new animation set that doesn't have that issue. That solves Goal #1 right out of the gate. We also used this to help address Goal #2.

    • Level 1 Ranger with a Longbow using Current Live Animations: Each shot takes about 1.14 seconds.
    • Level 1 Ranger with a Longbow using New Animations: Each shot takes about 1.11 seconds.


    This isn't much faster! However, as we'll get into in the Attack Speed section below, attack speed bonuses are worth more in this new animation set than they were before - If you have the Haste spell applied, a Speed item, or a feat that boosts your Ranged attack speed (such as Rapid Shot), you'll be firing significantly faster than before at low levels.

    As we said in Goal #3, however, we want you to fire at about the same speed you do on Live now at endgame. So, the amount of speed Bow users gain from BAB between level 1 and cap is a lot smaller than before. We are going to come back around to that, because even if the base fire rate is the same, some of your other bonuses to attack speed are going to count with Bows when they didn't before due to the engine cap.

    Preview 2 Note: We've made some changes to Human Male/Female and Tiefling Male/Female to make them visually stand straighter while firing a bow. We plan to bring this straighter posture to all characters before Live release
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  3. #3
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Attack Speed

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Attack Speed
    The current animations cap firing speed with Bows at about 0.69sec per shot, or about 87 shots per minute; any bonuses you get that would make you faster than that simply don't work right now. While we're fixing that, we don't want to significantly increase that on a stable basis (though we do want the boosts you do get to do what they say they do). In the past, we've sometimes added extraneous speed sources for Bows as a way to help prop up the combat style; this didn't work (because of the animation problem), but with that issue fixed it's time to pull back on some of those.

    To get from the new endgame baseline speed to an attack speed of 0.69sec per shot, you only need 25% attack speed boost. We're planning for that to come from two sources at the moment:

    • Enhancement Bonus: 15%
      • This is the most common bonus type for attack speed, found on the Haste spell, Speed items, and the Blinding Speed feat. In most cases, it caps at 15%, but there's a significant outlier that we're fixing in this patch; the Blinding Speed feat, which currently grants 22%.
      • Blinding Speed was meant to be a direct analogue of the Haste spell, permanently granting you the bonuses of that spell. However, around the same time the feat was created we reduced the Ranged Attack Speed the Haste spell gave from 22% to 15%, and the feat never followed suit. In this update, we're changing it 15% to match the Haste spell. Reconstruct's attack speed portion has this disparity also, and will also be changed in this patch.
      • We do understand that this affects other Ranged builds that do not use Bows, and are comfortable with that change; if they need buffing after this, we'll do it in ways that are better than having them rely on a single misaligned ability.
    • Feat Bonus: 10%
      • The remaining 10% needed for Bows to reach 25% could have come from a number of sources, but we decided to keep it in place on one of the earliest sources available to most Bow users - the Rapid Shot feat.


    This means that the following sources of Bow attack speed have been removed:
    • Shot on the Run no longer gives 10% attack speed with Longbows and Shortbows; its Ranged Power grant has been improved from +3 to +6. (Note that the Ranged Power is not Bow-specific).
    • Improved Archer's Focus (in T5 Deepwood Stalker) no longer gives 10% attack speed with Longbows and Shortbows while Archer's Focus is active; it now also grants +10 Ranged Power.
    • Primal Hymn (in Fatesinger) no longer gives 10% Attack Speed with Longbows and Shortbows. (It still gives it for Thrown Weapons, though most of the time Throwers are running into the same animation cap issue that Bows were before these changes...)


    There's also one other outlier of Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed: Top-end Ranged Alacrity items. These come in 20% and 25% variants. This wasn't as big of a deal before the change to Blinding Speed, but left untouched they'd be much, much stronger than other bows.
    • For this Lamannia, all instances of 25% Ranged Alacrity have been reduced to 20%. We're leaving existing 20% untouched for now to analyze how big of an impact leaving these items as a 5% boost over everything else will be, but that may change before Live as well.
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  4. #4
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Better Scaling Damage

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    Better Scaling Damage
    Classically, these Bows have had Dexterity to hit but no Damage modifier; this caused a lot of Bow users to feel like they had to spend points in Universal trees or splash 2 Ranger (spending points in Deepwood Stalker), or their damage would just trail behind viable levels. To help Bows have better damage that scales closer to other weapons, and in service of Goal #5 (making a wider variety of Bow builds viable), we've added Dexterity to Damage by default on Longbows and Shortbows.

    • It's worth noting that Crossbows do not have an ability score modifier to damage by default either; however, they have bigger damage dice, better crit range and multiplier, and other considerations to the point where we don't feel such a change is necessary for them at this time.
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  5. #5
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Hitting Harder in Heroics and Epics

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Hitting Harder in Heroics and Epics
    As we said in Goal #2, we want to increase Bow damage in Heroics with not just attack speed, but a little extra power. The DEX on bows alone isn't reaching that height yet (especially as that doesn't gain anything on some existing builds), so:

    • Point Blank Shot now also adds "When using a Longbow or Shortbow, you gain +1 Critical Threat Range."


    As we said in Goal #3, we want to increase Bow damage for top-end bow builds. Right now, that looks like this:

    • Combat Archery now also grants +1 Critical Multiplier with Longbows and Shortbows.
    • Combat Archery's DEX requirement is now 17 (was 21).
      • This should help some builds that need to split Ability Score increases to reach this essential feat.
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  6. #6
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Removing and Compensating for Manyshot

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Removing and Compensating for Manyshot
    As we said in Goal #4, we want to take Manyshot's power and distribute it back into passive damage. If you don't use the current Manyshot, you break about even on sustained damage with ~20% Doubleshot and ~20 Ranged Power, depending on how much of each of those stats you have already. However, we also wanted to keep the idea of a "Manyshot" around. So, we've made the following changes:

    • The existing Manyshot ability is gone.
    • The Manyshot feat changes to:
      • Manyshot: Bow Attack: Ranged Bow Attack: Expend one charge to fire three arrows in quick succession. You have +1 Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier with these shots. Each of these shots can Doubleshot. 2 second cooldown. This feat gives 3 charges, you regain 1 charge every 12 seconds you don't use Manyshot (Requires a Longbow or Shortbow to use). Passive: You gain Doubleshot equal to 1.5x your Base Attack Bonus with Longbows and Shortbows. (All prerequisites for it remain the same. Rangers still get it at level 6 automatically.)
    • Rapid Shot now also adds " You gain Ranged Power equal to 1.5x your BAB with longbows and shortbows".


    Between those two sets of changes and the attack speed you're getting back, you should end up with around the same amount of overall DPS in upper Heroics and Epics, just distributed a lot more evenly across your attacks and have the option of bursting more of it upfront than in preview 1 (but still less than on live).
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  7. #7
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Fixes and Misc Changes

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    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Fixes & Misc Changes

    • Knight of the Chalice's T4 Knight's Training now also grants the Shot on the Run feat.
      • Paladins who have Bows as Favored Weapons are slightly too feat starved to take all of the necessary feats to use bows well beyond low levels. This should help.
    • Active Ranged attacks that have bonuses to Critical Threat Range no longer get double that range on those attacks.
      • This primarily applied to the Ranged version of Exalted Smite, but would have been broken on the new Manyshot as well.

    • Ranger: Deepwood Stalker: Heavy Draw's Crit Multiplier should now stay on the player more consistently.
    • Paladin: Knight of the Chalice's Ranged Exalted Smite should now list its proper Critical bonuses.
    • Another thing that was done frequently to prop up Longbows and Shortbows in the past was to give them abnormally large Critical Threat bonuses. This is no longer needed after this pass, so we've taken Bows that have exceptionally large Critical Threat Ranges (18-20) and reduced them by 1 (19-20). All of these still have a larger Critical Threat Range than average Bows, just not as large as before. Preview 2 Note: Point Blank Shot now grants +1 Critical Threat Range with Bows. This means the loss of this threat range can easily be replaced in heroics and epics and now it applies to all available bows instead of only the specific subset below.
      • Affected Bows are:
        • Pinion, Cloud-Piercer
        • Sapphire Sting
        • Epic Sapphire Sting
        • Bow of the Elements (Air)
        • Silver Longbow
        • Epic Thornlord
        • Unwavering Ardency
        • Bow of Sinew
        • Collapsible Shortbow


    You'll also see a more diverse array of ways to build Bow builds in Epic later this year when Horizon Walker arrives and the Epic Destiny revamp is finished.

    If you have any questions, let me know!
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  8. #8
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default Itemized List of Bow Changes

    Itemized List of total Bow Changes

    • Longbows and Shortbows now use new, faster animations.
    • Lamannia Only: Human Male/Female and Tiefling Male/Female's have an adjusted animation from preview 1.
    • All Longbows and Shortbows now innately get your Dexterity modifier applied to Damage.
    • The +1 Critical Multiplier on a roll of 19-20 for Bows on Point Blank Shot has been replaced with +1 Critical Threat Range for Bows.
    • Blinding Speed now grants 15% Ranged Attack Speed, matching Haste.
    • Reconstruct now grants 15% Ranged Attack Speed, matching Haste.
    • Shot on the Run no longer gives 10% attack speed with Longbows and Shortbows.
    • Shot on the Run's Ranged Power grant has been improved from +3 to +6.
    • Improved Archer's Focus (in T5 Deepwood Stalker) no longer gives 10% attack speed with Longbows and Shortbows while Archer's Focus is active.
    • Improved Archer's Focus now also grants +10 Ranged Power.
    • Primal Hymn (in Fatesinger) no longer gives 10% Attack Speed with Longbows and Shortbows. (It still gives it for Thrown Weapons.)
    • All instances of 25% Ranged Alacrity on items have been reduced to 20%.
    • Manyshot is now "Ranged Bow Attack: Expend one charge to fire three arrows in quick succession. You have +1 Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier with these shots. Each of these shots can Doubleshot. 2 second cooldown. This feat gives 3 charges, you regain 1 charge every 12 seconds you don't use Manyshot (Requires a Longbow or Shortbow to use). Passive: You gain Doubleshot equal to 1.5x your Base Attack Bonus with Longbows and Shortbows."
    • LAMANNIA ONLY: Adjusted Manyshot's priority so it no longer interrupts your attack if you invoke it on cooldown.
    • The passive Ranged Power with Bows from Rapid Shot is now 1.5x your BAB (was 1.0x)
    • The +1 Critical Threat Range for Bows on Combat Archery has been replaced with +1 Critical Multiplier
    • Combat Archery's DEX requirement is now 17 (was 21).
    • Knight of the Chalice's T4 Knight's Training now also grants the Shot on the Run feat.
    • Active Ranged attacks that have bonuses to Critical Threat Range no longer get double that range on those attacks.
    • LAMANNIA ONLY: Fixed an issue where the scaling Doubleshot and Ranged Power bonuses from Rapid Shot and Manyshot were not updating when your BAB updated.
    • LAMANNIA ONLY: Fixed several bows that were missing Dexterity to Damage.
    • The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.
    • Ranger: Deepwood Stalker: Heavy Draw's Crit Multiplier should now stay on the player more consistently.
    • Paladin: Knight of the Chalice's Ranged Exalted Smite should now list its proper Critical bonuses.
    • The following Longbows and Shortbows have had their Critical Threat Ranges reduced from 18-20 to 19-20:
      • Pinion, Cloud-Piercer
      • Sapphire Sting
      • Epic Sapphire Sting
      • Bow of the Elements (Air)
      • Silver Longbow
      • Epic Thornlord
      • Unwavering Ardency
      • Bow of Sinew
      • Collapsible Shortbow
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  9. #9
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default

    Post Reserved
    Tell me about any and all bugs you encounter by clicking here!


    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  10. #10
    Community Member Firebreed's Avatar
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    Thanks for the new buffs.

    Given the scope of the work on bows (and how long it will be before you can spend time on them again), I feel compelled to request that you take a look at Arrow of Slaying, given it will mostly become obsolete with the new changes to Manyshot. It's an iconic tier 5 ability of an already frontloaded tree. Could you consider tuning it please?

  11. #11
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    I definitely like the look of this version of manyshot better than the 12s CD from last pass. The double shot being available on each shot also seems like ti'll be a nice change, as is the 50% boost to BAB scaling for doubleshot and Ranged power. I will say that I would still like to see a little love given to elemental DPS AA since all of these changes only effect the efficiency of pDPS and have very little to no impact on the eDPS, but excited to try out these chnges and see how they do
    I'm a Bard... I don't just take down enemies... I do it with style!... oh and lots of Music Buffs.

  12. #12
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    Can Slayer Arrow be changed so it can be used with the new manyshot?

  13. #13
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    • The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.
    R.I.P. Monkchers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  14. #14
    Community Member rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Can Slayer Arrow be changed so it can be used with the new manyshot?
    One way to go would be slayer arrow having a hunt's end type effect replacing what it currently does where the next attack one does would get the +dam.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    [*]Point Blank Shot now also adds "When using a Longbow or Shortbow, you gain +1 Critical Threat Range."
    Is this for all ranges or do you need to be in Point Blank Shot range?
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  16. #16
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Is this for all ranges or do you need to be in Point Blank Shot range?
    That is just a flat Critical Threat Range increase regardless of how physically far from the target your character is.
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    NOTE: Submitting a bug in this manner is not a quick fix for past occurrences; it is instead a means of bringing issues to our attention to prevent future occurrences for both you and others. Providing detailed information, especially specifics about your account and character as well as what steps you took leading up to the issue, are critical to us being able to pinpoint the cause of any problems you have encountered.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidfox View Post
    One way to go would be slayer arrow having a hunt's end type effect replacing what it currently does where the next attack one does would get the +dam.
    It would be OP with adrenaline, so it will never happen. Slaying Arrows are dead now, you can spend the 2 AP for something else (if you are staying ranger).

    With the burst gone, and the 90-100k damage per arrows are gone now, I dont think there is a reason to go for ranger. Everything a ranger could do after this changes will be behind throwing daggers / inquisitives. Why would anyone does a bow user, when other weapons give more dps and have a BURST, like endless fusilade, multitude of missiles etc. No way anyone in end game will remain bow user with these changes, when there are far better options...

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Is this for all ranges or do you need to be in Point Blank Shot range?
    All ranges.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  19. #19
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Clarification questions on new many shot:
    It appears that only the first arrow+doubleshots procs adrenaline/hunts end, whereas the 2nd/3rd arrow +their doubleshots do not. However, occasionally the second arrow, but not the 3rd does proc adrenaline (possibly lag related?)

    Is only the first shot or all 3 indended to proc adrenaline?
    Is the occasional 2nd shot procing adrenaline a bug?
    Thelanis

  20. #20
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    Better direction, though I still see some problems that havent changed since last version...

    - The crit profile distribution is better now. Getting +1 range in PBS warrants shrinking down the 18-20 bows. Though I still worry that Archers are going to be too vulnerable vs. Undead/Constructs/Elementals/Plants/Oozes etc. with so much emphasis on crit. Feel they need some Fort Bypass baked into their feat schedule, more than just Precision.

    - Manyshot looks interesting in this incarnation, though I still think it would work better as a "boost" to your next attack a la Hunts End...turning whatever it is into a triple-volley at +1/+1 crit. Especially now that its charge based.

    - I also wonder why "12 secs without using it". Why not just "12 secs", same as the cooldown on the last version? Why punish players for using it intermittently? The gameplay that incentivizes is to dump all 3 right away, and then let them all recharge, or have to manually self-enforce a 12+ sec CD. It disincentivizes you from using it 6 or 10 secs apart, because that will increase the recharge cycle from 12 secs to 18 or 22 or as many as 33 for a single charge. Just leave it every 12 secs you regain a charge, regardless of use.

    - BAB scaling (and not attribute-based) is still a mistake. I laid it out before...it will scale fine through Heroics, but then fall off a cliff in Epics once you cap your BAB at 25, while other martial builds are scaling 2.0 or 3.0 or 3.5x on mainstat, or getting bonus Doubleshot on mainstat, and getting huge boosts to their efficacy with attribute statflation at 29. Going to 1.5x BAB isnt actually fixing that, it just means they'll be supergods in Heroic and then still fall off a cliff in late Epic. Just make it +0.5x stat-to-dmg, if you dont want to make it scale on an attribute itself...that will scale better and still fits the new combat paradigm.

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