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  1. #1
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Default Drop the mini expansion rubbish

    To be honest I am shocked that SSG are adding a mini expansion after all the critisism they deservedly got from Lotro players after the War of three peaks mini expansion there.

    The deal they have given VIP is that we get content packs for free with VIP subscription. Calling content packs mini expansion is just a shameless attempt at forcing us to pay more in addition to the VIP subscription, and it is not acceptable.

    If Saltmarsh is "too big" for a content pack then just split it into 2 parts and release it in 2 updates.

    Calling it a mini expansion and forcing VIP players to pay for it is a slap in the face for every VIP that believed they would get content packs without paying more as long as they are VIP.
    Last edited by Dragavon; 02-26-2021 at 04:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    I was also suprised that there will be no major expansion this year, and also no level cap increase? I thought the cap increase was a given this year. To be fair to SSG, we have seen very few free packs since Ravenloft was released. Probably they spend so much dev time making a major expansion the resources simply arent there. And of course, they do have to keep the lights on. I would assume a mini expansion would have a lot lower buy price than a major expansion so that would be a plus. IMHO, the devs spend WAY too much time "balancing the power" (aka, buffing and nerfing) and too little time taking care of the important matter in the game. Whats important to me is stuff like when I click on a portal to go somewhere, I would actually like to go somewhere , not just stand and wait 3 or 4 minutes to be able to do it. You know, get rid of the frustrations in the game, fix the bugs when they first appear, not just let them be and everyone has to deal with em, stuff like that is more important than worrying about xxx class is op and everyone is jealous about it. Just bring up the power of the really underperforming classes/trees etc. Do we really need an epic destiny tree overhaul? Sounds like a waste of time to me.

  3. #3
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    Hmm. I wonder if something like this is going on:

    Expansions generate real world currency, which is good, but the long development cycle creates too much turbulence in cash flow, which is bad, and the high price point chases off many customers, which is also bad.

    Quest Packs have a much shorter development cycle, which is good, but the low price point generates little revenue beyond Subscriptions, which is bad, and encourages players to farm DDO points, which is also bad.

    Therefore, we will introduce a new thing that is larger than a Quest Pack but smaller than an Expansion. We can do these on a quarterly time horizon and charge real world currency to stabilize cash flow, which is good. We can make the price point attractive to a larger group of players which is also good. However, we now know Subscribers will feel slighted, which is bad.

    Therefore, we will go forward with mid-sized Content Packs, charge real world currency, keep the price below that of an Expansion, and give Subscribers some kind of discount. Hopefully, this will reduce complaints to a manageable level.

    If I am correct, Dragavon, your wish is hopeless. Sorry.
    Last edited by Annex; 02-26-2021 at 05:13 AM.
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  4. #4
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    SSG do what ESO does it works like a charm over there. give more DDO points than the sub fee costs ie 1600 DDO points per month you will get a lot more subscribers including me and pardon my language, far less complaining from the VIPs when you do stuff like this.

    In ESO being a subscriber is literally a no brainer, in DDO I just cant see the value. Oh and just in case anyone's wondering I like DDO better than ESO. Vertical Advancement Killed that game for me.
    But there Subscriber system is very cleverly done.

    (IMO)

    at least 3 words from my post are on topic alright.

    What do you VIPs think.

  5. #5
    Community Member Dejvid's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    this was expected. they made bank in lotro with this, despite the forum, twitter, facebook, media etc outrage.

    enough people have no problem paying 20€ (base, check rest here: https://store-new.standingstonegames...tro/expansions ) for a glorified questpack with some added whistles.
    and vip feel shafted again, rightly so!

    the lotro glorified questpack released 3+ months later in the store for 1995 points, thats just 500 points shorter then the usual expansion price. for a lot less content. so even people that wait and buy points on a regular basis will feel somewhat ripped off.

    devaluing vip but not lowering the price is something i cannot support, so, despite having a somewhat more regular income now again, i am still not going to sub again, nor spend those outrageous prices for a glorified questpack.

    just dissapointed. again.

  6. #6
    Community Member Gniewomir's Avatar
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    And i'm not shocked at all. Ravenloft was awesome and gave them a lot of money. IMO sharn was lazy made, but still ok and it gave them a lot of money. Every-year-expansion spam continued. Feywild was **** (or, at least judging from forums, worse than sharn in opionion of many players, i won't even mention that raid was delivered half of year after releasing expansion) but still - gave ssg money. I'm not surprised ever-year-money-grab-expansion trend continues in both: spamming new expansions and lowering quality of them.

  7. #7
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    I am ok with paying "expansions" but if this "mini-expansion" approach is going to continue I think it makes sense to give VIP perks a boost in other areas.

    I pay VIP to support the game and for the convenience. I understand the need to maximize revenue. Giving VIPs more in game perks (ie higher XP bonuses) are low cost incentives to keep us subscribed.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemercury View Post
    SSG do what ESO does it works like a charm over there. give more DDO points than the sub fee costs ie 1600 DDO points per month you will get a lot more subscribers including me and pardon my language, far less complaining from the VIPs when you do stuff like this.

    In ESO being a subscriber is literally a no brainer, in DDO I just cant see the value. Oh and just in case anyone's wondering I like DDO better than ESO. Vertical Advancement Killed that game for me.
    But there Subscriber system is very cleverly done.

    (IMO)

    at least 3 words from my post are on topic alright.

    What do you VIPs think.
    I am not VIP, but I think I would probably subscribe if they were giving lot of DDO points like you said 1000+. More XP would be nice also, like some buddy XP.

  9. #9
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    I don't get it, at all.


    Forgotten Realms was massive and a whole new world we could go to.
    Ravenloft, again very big in its setting.
    Sharn, though within Eberron feels like a world on its own.
    Fables, no idea where this was supposes to take place.

    But seeing that I paid for things in advance only to see it changed into an "expansion" feels like enough of a ripoff to cancel my vip subscription.
    Fables really doesn't hold same value as Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft or Sharn.

    Oh, and I have bought every pack and went vip a long time ago and kept it going just to support SSG.
    I even bought things double.

    But really, promising something after you charge me for it only to back out of it and then try to charge me again.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    Therefore, we will go forward with mid-sized Content Packs, charge real world currency, keep the price below that of an Expansion, and give Subscribers some kind of discount. Hopefully, this will reduce complaints to a manageable level.
    The mini-expansion will probably be the same price as the original MotU expansion tiers.

    Us, the customers totally let them get away with this. They ramped the price in "expansions", and as I pointed out long ago they should have been shot down like a pheasant when they did that. Now, because customers excused that behavior, they've created the market space to unleash the "mini expansion", lol, likely magically at the pricing of the old "expansion". They couldn't be more clear, and some are still, "well, if we can get some more perks"...

    If I reached for your wallet and said "here, I'm going to take more, and give you less" and your response is, "uh, well, ok, but can you give me some more perks?"... Sure, I'll get right on that. The response should be to slap my hand away and say, "Show me a better deal first".

    Keep letting someone sell one less for more, they aren't going to stop. This is how we know they are treating players like junkies, not respecting them as customers which choices. When they stop paying an attention to broader the market signals on pricing (which we continuously document are quite different in value-to-cost ratios across non SSG/Daybreak games).

  11. #11
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    The mini-expansion will probably be the same price as the original MotU expansion tiers.

    Us, the customers totally let them get away with this. They ramped the price in "expansions", and as I pointed out long ago they should have been shot down like a pheasant when they did that. Now, because customers excused that behavior, they've created the market space to unleash the "mini expansion", lol, likely magically at the pricing of the old "expansion". They couldn't be more clear, and some are still, "well, if we can get some more perks"...

    If I reached for your wallet and said "here, I'm going to take more, and give you less" and your response is, "uh, well, ok, but can you give me some more perks?"... Sure, I'll get right on that. The response should be to slap my hand away and say, "Show me a better deal first".

    Keep letting someone sell one less for more, they aren't going to stop. This is how we know they are treating players like junkies, not respecting them as customers which choices. When they stop paying an attention to broader the market signals on pricing (which we continuously document are quite different in value-to-cost ratios across non SSG/Daybreak games).
    They definitely pushed up Expansion prices to leverage the purchasing power of more affluent Customers and that definitely made the space for this in-between product. It would not surprise me if that was a long term plan aimed at gaining more revenue from affluent Customers.

    Customers do not function as a singular unit so some did say, "No", but very obviously enough said, "Yes", to make this pricing strategy successful. They will keep increasing prices and decreasing value until they find the price point the market will bear. That does not conflict with my previous conjecture that this may represent a move to shorten the development cycle and thus normalize cash flow. I am not particularly thrilled with getting less value in the process but thems the breaks. It's just business.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Valerianus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    They definitely pushed up Expansion prices to leverage the purchasing power of more affluent Customers and that definitely made the space for this in-between product. It would not surprise me if that was a long term plan aimed at gaining more revenue from affluent Customers.

    Customers do not function as a singular unit so some did say, "No", but very obviously enough said, "Yes", to make this pricing strategy successful. They will keep increasing prices and decreasing value until they find the price point the market will bear. That does not conflict with my previous conjecture that this may represent a move to shorten the development cycle and thus normalize cash flow. I am not particularly thrilled with getting less value in the process but thems the breaks. It's just business.


    business yeah. marketing yeah.

    they are doing it so good that after feymess wild (i got the ultimate) i'll never again buy stuff just because i like the game as as soon as it is available. and this makes me sad. trust me, a lot of buyers are in this state of mind. mini-expansion? stupid marketing fail, or something is an expansion, or it isn't. both ways, vips are damaged. wording, it matters, they just manage to enrage the customers adding insult to injury with bad wording as lotro side tell us. not even trying to disguise them as something different, like not an expansion but a campaign, a storymode pack, an epic landscape, the first of a new series of classic modules, with new concept new content new rules new ideas whatever! good marketing really.


    try to do business with no customers, good luck


    the content is nice, i like it, hats off to the people who work at it, i'm grateful i love it. the rest, all that's around it, it's a mess.
    Last edited by Valerianus; 02-26-2021 at 01:40 PM.

  13. #13
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    I am interested to see what this "mini expansion" will be for ddo. If that means no cosmetics, no hirelings, or new race. Doesn't sound bad to me.

    What sounds bad to me is charging anywhere near full expansion price. For one chain and explorer area. The other con is gear stagnation. Which is what we got with feywild. 7 piece sets that are trash. I think ssg should stay away from gear sets with that much investment especially if the gear has no cohesion. Why put that much effort into gear sets if they are going to mismatch them? Vet's will see it as a noob trap while noob will buy into it. Not good for the newer players.
    I "overtuned" my truck now the engine knocks and get bad gas mileage. Maybe I should take it to a mechanic that knows how to tune a engine.

  14. #14
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    I'll be buying this with DDO points whenever it goes in the shop. Not until then. IF that means I can't play it for six months or a year, that's fine with me.

  15. #15
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    Expansions currently cost $40 - $80 - $130 in both Dungeons & Dragons Online and The Lord of the Rings Online.

    War of the Three Peaks (The Lord of the Rings Online 'Mini-Expansion') cost $20 - $60 - $100.

    We can safely assume The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh will cost $20 - $60 - $100. If I recall correctly, Darth Severlin said it would contain about 8 dungeons but we have no idea how big they will be. We know there will be a Haunted House, a Ship, a Lizardman Fortification, and a Sauhagin Base. One of the landscape developers previewed a map of the Saltmarsh Wilderness and it looked pretty big but we have no idea how big.

    Is that worth $20 US compared to, say, Keep on the Borderlands? We will all need to make that decision when the time comes because the chances of them not doing this are zero. They want cold, hard cash, not DDO Point farming.

    War of the Three Peaks Collector's Edition ($60 US) included a Boar Mount, a Cosmetic Armor, a Storage Bag, a Weapon Aura, and the equivalent of a fancy Augment. Would I pay $40 for a Hippocampus Mount. Uhhh, ya, I admit I probably would. Would I pay $40 for a Steed of the Saltmarsh and some ugly armor? Nope. We will all need to make a decision when the time comes.

    War of the Three Peaks Ultimate Fan Bundle ($100 US) included all of the above, another Boar Mount, a Pig Pet, a Donkey Pet, and an Experience type perk. I would not pay $40 US for any of that junk. Again, we will all need to make a decision when the time comes.

    .....

    In my opinion, calling The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh a 'Mini-Expansion' is a huge mistake. It immediately makes the customer think, "a lesser expansion", which conveys feelings of less value. Bad move. Psychology matters in marketing. They should call these new things, "Campaigns". "Campaign" sounds like something big and complete and worthwhile. Dungeons & Dragons Players understand what "Campaign" means. Then we would have "Quest Packs", "Campaigns", and "Expansions".

    .....

    As I wrote above, the chances of this not happening are zero. If any of you want to do something constructive, I highly suggest you discuss the following:

    How many dungeons will a "Campaign" need to justify a $20 US purchase price?

    How big a wilderness will a "Campaign" need to justify a $20 US purchase price?

    What items would entice me to pay $40 for an upgrade to the "Collector's Edition"?

    What items would entice me to pay $80 for an upgrade to the "Ultimate Fan Bundle"?

    What sort of discount should Subscribers get on these bundles to make them worth paying above and beyond a Subscription?

    This is going to happen so steer it. Give them feedback on what sorts of dungeons to build. Give them feedback on how to make a fun Wilderness. Give them feedback on what to include in each bundle and do it _now_, while there is still time to influence the outcome.

    Edit: I removed one provocative comment as I wish to be diplomatic, not argumentative.
    Last edited by Annex; 02-26-2021 at 09:31 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    We can safely assume The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh will cost $20 - $60 - $100. If I recall correctly, Darth Severlin said it would contain about 8 dungeons but we have no idea how big they will be. We know there will be a Haunted House, a Ship, a Lizardman Fortification, and a Sauhagin Base. One of the landscape developers previewed a map of the Saltmarsh Wilderness and it looked pretty big but we have no idea how big.

    Is that worth $20 US compared to, say, Keep on the Borderlands? We will all need to make that decision when the time comes because the chances of them not doing this are zero. They want cold, hard cash, not DDO Point farming.
    For me absolutely not, in any way shape or form. What about gianthold? What about sands of mech? The list goes on and on.

    They have simply decided to start charging for content that used to come free with a sub. If other folks want to pay them for it twice, that's ok by me. But I won't be subbing and I am not buying it until I can do so for DDO points.

    I do actually pay for my most of my DDO points. However, if SSG wants to make them worth a lot less, I may have to rethink that as well.

    This isn't f-ing Cloud City, and I don't have a gun to my head. "Pray I do not alter our agreement further" isn't really going to fly.
    Last edited by yfernbottom; 02-26-2021 at 03:33 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Tricosene's Avatar
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    I would imagine that it is worth $20.

    But it also seems like a way to get more money out of VIPs, to me. I subscribed so I could just play, without additional fees. If they need more cash and want to increase the subscription by a buck or two, fine. Netflix already did that. If they want to put out expansions every year or two, well, I guess that I can play along with that. But now, adding on a new tier of expansion for us to pay for - this seems more like taking a glorified adventure pack, which I was already getting for free, and finding way to convince me to pay for it.

    This just feels wrong to me, so I'm not going to buy it, until it goes on sale for points.

    I realize that others of you don't agree, and that's fine. We each have our own views on what SSG is doing here.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricosene View Post
    I realize that others of you don't agree, and that's fine. We each have our own views on what SSG is doing here.
    I already canceled my vip over a year ago. Actually bought a ton of pack before the free quest give away. I don't see the point of vip. You rent packs and get some points and xp. For the same price of vip I can get a lot more points and just buy packs.

    If ssg has a quality mini expansion. I will buy it. 8 quest and a explore area for 20 buck sounds fine by me. I already know the 2 other tiers are going to have some cosmetics. yeah no.

    If the quest's are short I will probably have a grievance. The shorter these quests are getting the less and less I want to play. What I have found out to the borderlands. Which I like for level 1 is they don't translate well to epics. Would of been nice to see the dungeons expand a bit for epic play.
    If Saltmarsh is anything like that as a mini. SSG can get rekt.
    I "overtuned" my truck now the engine knocks and get bad gas mileage. Maybe I should take it to a mechanic that knows how to tune a engine.

  19. #19
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    I have no issue with mini-expansions, nor any issue with paying for content. I just expect the same value as an expansion in "mini" form.

    An expansion is generally:
    ~10 quests, 2 raids, 1 race for $40.
    +Enhancement tree and cosmetics for tier 2
    +Iconic, more cosmetic + Bonus items for tier 3

    It looks like there wont be a new race, but will be an enhancement tree, so I'm expecting a mini expansion to be roughly half price for:
    ~5 quests, 1 raid.
    +Enhancement tree for tier 2
    +Cosmetics + Bonus items for tier 3

    If my assumptions are correct I will buy it. If it's just charging money for quests only, this may be the first time i wait for it to be available for points.
    Thelanis

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragavon View Post
    To be honest I am shocked that SSG are adding a mini expansion after all the critisism they deservedly got from Lotro players after the War of three peaks mini expansion there.

    The deal they have given VIP is that we get content packs for free with VIP subscription. Calling content packs mini expansion is just a shameless attempt at forcing us to pay more in addition to the VIP subscription, and it is not acceptable.

    If Saltmarsh is "too big" for a content pack then just split it into 2 parts and release it in 2 updates.

    Calling it a mini expansion and forcing VIP players to pay for it is a slap in the face for every VIP that believed they would get content packs without paying more as long as they are VIP.
    I completely agree +1

    I was also a LOTRO beta tester and have 2 lifetime accounts that I no longer maintain or play because I do not at all care for how they are running that game - however I would say I give props to the stellar events people of LOTRO; they are what I consider the mmo standard - the events are spectacular. But one cannot just play the great events. At some point the actual game has to be played. And as far as I'm concerned LOTRO Is ruined from one of the best games - Mines of Moria was one of the best expansions ever in any MMO.

    As a DDO VIP I feel completely like I support a charity - I as a player, a veteran, Founding player, feel totally unappreciated and taken advantage of. The pittance of extra DDO points my VIP earns every month is nothing considering how EXPENSIVE everything in the store is

    VIP should grant a VIP cosmetic every month and have access to UNLIMITED bank storage like other MMOs do.

    My VIP sub is money - real money - that I mail to SSG for them to use to keep the candy machines full of candy -
    but they consistently ignore literally every thing I personally recommend about the candy.

    For example,
    I have been posting on the forums and put videos up on my YouTube channel about how Proof Against Poison is broken has been broken and is on par with the shield spell being broken in its magnitude because it is not providing the expected immunities - ALL items, augments, class feats are affected - I assume its the halo effect from their changing a system that had nothing to do with the PoP system and now its broke, but its been broken for a long while - I have asked for a dev to post a response about Proof against poison and let us know what they intend to do. But that has fallen on deaf ears -

    SMH
    Last edited by Dark_Lord_Mary; 02-26-2021 at 06:11 PM.

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