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  1. #21
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    Oh, I get now why this went through. They did say. They wanted to develop SWF as the hybrid supporting style, so the twist for SWF to have AoE should be Energy Burst at 100% crit rate, not CAF. They know THF can just swap to momentum swing or boulder's might, or even nothing because THF is all multitarget dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    When looking at the spread, popularity, and usability of combat styles, we came up with a few concrete goals. We wanted to boost the DPS and versatility of SWF, expanding its usage outwards to better cater to hybrid builds.

    Single Weapon Fighting
    New Feat: Offhand Versatility
    • Req: BaB 8, Single Weapon Fighting
    • Your offhand item modifies your main hand:
      • Runearms and Orbs now grant: when you vorpal strike, your next spell automatically crits. This has an internal cooldown of 20 seconds (lasts for 20 seconds).
      • Nothing in your offhand increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.
    • Fighters may select this feat as one of their Fighter Bonus Feats.
    The AoE dps twist for SWF is now Energy Burst. SWF is now more hybrid Scion of Fire-energy burst-Fatesinger-ish. Not really expand though as much as moved.

    A hybrid on live has say 750 spell power, casting energy burst at 22 damage/lvl x30 levels = 5,610, 100% crit and 25% multiplier from fire is 12k. Helpless brings that to 20k, and saves brings it down to 10k. Which is decent in elite/R1 where most people play.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 02-25-2021 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Oh, I get now why this went through. They did say. They wanted to develop SWF as the hybrid supporting style, so the twist for SWF to have AoE should be Energy Burst at 100% crit rate, not CAF. They know THF can just swap to momentum swing or boulder's might, or even nothing because THF is all multitarget dps.



    The AoE dps twist for SWF is now Energy Burst. SWF is now more hybrid Scion of Fire-energy burst-Fatesinger-ish. Not really expand though as much as moved.

    A hybrid on live has say 750 spell power, casting energy burst at 22 damage/lvl x30 levels = 5,610, 100% crit and 25% multiplier from fire is 12k. Helpless brings that to 20k, and saves brings it down to 10k. Which is decent in elite/R1 where most people play.
    Except for evasion, major gearing issues, and not every SWF user being a hybrid, it's a neat idea. It's not a terrible idea to make SWF the magic AoE hybrid, but I feel they would need some more support than an epic feat that raises spell crit % after vorpal from 50% to 100%. That's a 33% damage increase once every 30s, while wasting a T4 on EB and building for both melee and spell damage.

    I don't understand how they intend to balance SWF/TWF vs. THF if SWF/TWF are not even supposed to be able to invest in decent cleaves to compensate for their lack of Strikethrough. Most of the game is super focused on AoE, for single target styles to be OK for solo/short manned dungeon clearing, you would have to give them much higher damage than THF. It also makes Tempest DoD extremely hard to balance.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 02-25-2021 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Yeah I really want to see the devs reasoning for this nerf. We got to see their logic for the Belt and Nuke nerfs, and that logic was largely sound, even if the changes were predictably unpopular. We've gotten zilcho about this sneaky little tidbit though.
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grudgebear View Post
    It uses sunder animation and is not a cleave, this special attack is a bottom vomit tier ability now. Sunder's animation is broken with THF weapons.

    This is one of the sloppiest nerfs I've seen in a while and there were better ways to nerf this ability.
    Not just sloppy, but a bit offensive.
    - enforced cooldown timer, makes sense, slowed it down, dropped dps
    - took away smite effects, makes sense, dropped dps again
    - more then doubled animation time, makes no sense, screwed dps on it and made it feel wonky as hell
    - stripped the only real use of turn undead for melee paladin and clerics, completely senseless

    If devs were so bent on us not using it, TAKE IT OUT OF THE GAME.

  5. #25
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    Surely you could have kept it as aoe though, at least? I'm at a loss to understand how that aspect is exploitable.

    What you've done is close an exploit by effectively making the thing worthless. If it's not used at all, then sure it's not exploitable. That's one way to solve it but not very elegant.

    The exploit aspect at least explaiins why you didn't put it up for preview, which was what really annoyed me, so thanks for explaining that at least.

    Maybe include a suitable note in the release notes to the effect you're addressing an exploit here on any such un-previewed nerfs in future? That would certainly help the blood pressure this end!

  6. #26
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    I can understand wanting to fix exploit cases. I don't understand why anyone would ever take or use an ability that only lowers your dps though.

    The issue is that for the "standard special attack" animation (especially for THF) the ability needs to nearly double your damage just to make up for the attack speed slowdown. CaF does not do this. That animation would be better justified for an adrenaline level attack, not a small amount of light damage.
    Thelanis

  7. #27
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    Surely you could have kept it as aoe though, at least?
    Granted I did not use this much before the patch, but I was hitting multiple targets last night in Don't Drink the water. 3 or 4 Yaun-ti at a time.

    I agree the animation is terrible and I would never use it on a single target but against groups it gave me a multi target attack.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    If its purely a mechanical/exploitable issue, and the change had nothing to do with the balance of the pre-patch skill itself when used "the right way", that's a much different situation. Though one that you could've put in the patch notes, knowing full well that CaF was a keystone skill for many builds right now...

    Its good to hear that its at best a temporary setback. I look forward to getting a worthwhile CaF back later this year then

  9. #29
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    Surely you could have kept it as aoe though, at least? I'm at a loss to understand how that aspect is exploitable.

    What you've done is close an exploit by effectively making the thing worthless. If it's not used at all, then sure it's not exploitable. That's one way to solve it but not very elegant.

    The exploit aspect at least explaiins why you didn't put it up for preview, which was what really annoyed me, so thanks for explaining that at least.

    Maybe include a suitable note in the release notes to the effect you're addressing an exploit here on any such un-previewed nerfs in future? That would certainly help the blood pressure this end!
    Do you remember tree builds? SSG obliterated practically a whole destiny for a very niche build you had to do a lot to make it work. That action is not even near the expression exaggeration. This feels the same, total overreaction.

    Titus.
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  10. #30
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    Do you remember tree builds? SSG obliterated practically a whole destiny for a very niche build you had to do a lot to make it work. That action is not even near the expression exaggeration. This feels the same, total overreaction.

    Titus.
    I missed playing the old tree, glad I got to enjoy CaF - it really helped on all the substandard flavour builds I like.


    RIP fun

  11. #31
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    Gotta say im disappointed for the change in CAF. I play a swashbuckler atm it this was one of my attacks tied with En Pointe. Surely the dev team can make this a worthwile attack and still be useful. It was nice to be able to do some AOE on a group of stuff instead of having to kill stuff one thing at a time.

    Also you just said you all will be making changes later this year to the destiny trees.. Perhaps Divine Crusader will be redone or removed, but regardless... why do we have to wait so long? what like 5 , 6, 8 months from now? These changes make playing some play styles obsolete sometimes. frustrating.
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  12. #32
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    Why do exploit fixes require such drastic measures? Sure, go ahead and fix whatever the exploit was, but did you really have to ruin CAF to do it? Was there no better option?

    Note: I've never used CAF. I don't have a THF either. I just don't think this is sound logic.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    Do you remember tree builds? SSG obliterated practically a whole destiny for a very niche build you had to do a lot to make it work. That action is not even near the expression exaggeration. This feels the same, total overreaction.

    Titus.
    Tree builds required massive amount of effort and micro management to make them work, some of the best ones we had were so complex to play effectively that they were not something that should be used in the scale of balancing ( i had to keymap 8 bars and use them all in a rotation to play one properly), if they kept the spirit and removed the cleaves they could have been useful to this day. Primal is not bad tho, its the best destiny for druid casters which could be fine if i friggin knew if the spells worked properly as advised in the release notes. Its a mess.

    But difference between caf and trees is the exploitable nature of caf that would had made swf the definite strongest style, if you had the aoe clear of caf on a swf double stat scaling swf build that has the increased att speed and superb boss dps, we would had gained nothing this update beside a shift from 2 handed to swf, we do not need 1 specific thing to be what everyone needs to play, but we need versatility, options, choices, and our choices need to matter and to be specialized.
    That is why the alchemist and caf nerf, to me at least, they were a correct choice.

    Caf was pretty much 1 button aoe nuke, same thing as multivial was.

    Those things are not good for a game with such complexity like ddo is.
    Last edited by Kebtid; 02-26-2021 at 06:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    There is no shortage of content in this game for the weakest 5% of players.

    For most content, they have three difficulties designed solely for them, Casual, Normal and Hard.

  14. #34
    Community Member devashta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    CAF has gone from extremely OP -> balanced -> useless with the last two updates for it. Yet again the devs went overboard with the nerfs.
    You can thank the Fury paladins exploiting the CAF for all the THF nerfs. There were tons of paladins cheating this and I am surprised they even managed to fix it. I do not want to name any persons (or in some case entire guilds) but absolutely gutted other melee classes have to endure THF nerfs because of these suckers.
    Good riddance.

  15. #35
    Community Member devashta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    Thank you for fixing this exploit & nuking it from orbit.

  16. #36
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    An in-game exploit that increased damage results means... the same xp, same end rewards...
    Thank goodness this terrible exploit has been closed up to protect the sanctity and playability!
    DDO is safe once more.
    I'm starting to get jaded about this whole process- OP release, backend nerf- it's the proverbial mule and the carrot and I end up feeling like an ***.

  17. #37
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devashta View Post
    You can thank the Fury paladins exploiting the CAF for all the THF nerfs. There were tons of paladins cheating this and I am surprised they even managed to fix it. I do not want to name any persons (or in some case entire guilds) but absolutely gutted other melee classes have to endure THF nerfs because of these suckers.
    Good riddance.
    Fury Paladins and CAF?

    If you are implying the exploit involved adrenaline proccing on multiple targets using CAF, and that being considered cheating, then what about IPS doing the same?

    And if that was the exploit why not change CAF to be more like other cleaves, which certainly don't do that?

    Ironic as I've always felt the different handling of adrenaline between cleaves and IPS to be a glaring inconsistency. Furyshot fine but furycleave cheating? Makes no sense.

    I've no issue with exploits being addressed, indeed I welcome it, but CAF appears to have had a number of specific features, and I find it hard to credit they were ALL being exploited somehow. In that context, again this multiple nerf makes no sense.

    Hopefully as Devs have alluded to, this can be reviewed in the round this year when EDs are updated.

    In a wider sense, cleaves in general need reviewed imo. They've been nerfed by proxy by strikethrough.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Sure!

    The pre-patch version of Confront Any Foe was heavily exploitable. To prevent this, we shifted it to a fairly standard special attack set that wouldn't have those issues.

    We understand that this means this ability may not be as worth taking as a result, and are sorry that this exploit fix results in that. We're getting close to Destiny revamps later this year, and this issue won't persist through those changes.
    How can you call an exploit something, that you have created yourself? You've given it additional cooldown a year ago and you knew exactly how it works. Because you make it sound like the players abused something.

    We play for fun and we pay you a lot of money when you work and get paid for it. I believe that it is your responsibility and if you create something faulty or inconsitent then maybe you should consider it your own responsibility - not players using an exploit.

    Cheers.

  19. #39
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    Fun is OP according to SSG so this of course couldn't stand.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    I missed playing the old tree, glad I got to enjoy CaF - it really helped on all the substandard flavour builds I like.


    RIP fun
    Tree was soo much fun. Incredibly hard to play, one slip up and you were dead, but really effective when played well. Absolutely the best time I ever had in DDO, bar none, and I got cleric past lives out of it! I am glad I got to experience it.

    Edit: by the way -my water savant took a 20% haircut on spell power, and she was not that strong to begin with. Sorry about your paladins, but SSG seems to be inherently incapable of not slashing everyone's DPS when they try to balance anything anymore. Which is a little bit ironic when you think about it -if everyone gets nerfed, you aren't really balancing anything.
    Last edited by bracelet; 02-26-2021 at 11:19 AM.

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