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  1. #1
    Community Member SpookyNoodle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb A Quantitative and Qualitative Analysis of the Single-Target Damage of the 3 Styles

    Hello adventurers, tis I, the Spooky Noodle, here to lay bare some statistical analysis:

    So, the upcoming proposed Lammania changes make some adjustments to the Single-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting styles, and so I wanted to do some (relatively) imperical testing, to compare and contrast the three fighting styles (SWF, THF, and TWF) against in each.

    A Scientific Environment

    To conduct these tests, I made a single character, pure fighter, and built it the exact same way for each style, and ran a number of DPS tests on the Kobolds in the Test Dojo. The three builds were all Strength-based, all used the same enhancement in the same enhancement trees (Kensei, with Falconry secondary and a splash of Human Racial), and all wore identical gear, used identical Destiny layouts and twists, were played identically in terms of ability priority and sequencing, they even had identical past lives, as Lesser Hearts were used to TR into each build.

    The only thing that was different between each of the builds was the feat-lines taken (for each of the three styles), as well as Knight's Training for TWF and SWF. SWF requires an extra feat compared to the other styles, for Offhand Versatility, and so TWF had 1 extra feat, and THF had 2 (one for KT and one for OV); whenever there were spare feats leftover, they were put into Weapon Focus: X for a bit of extra melee power. I doubt 4 MP makes a substantial difference in terms of overall DPS, so I haven't tried to account for it in these tests.

    These three builds will be referred to as the "Standard" for the purposes of test results, because they're meant to represent each of the styles in and of themselves, without any additional benefits from Vistani Knight Fighter, Swashbuckling, the Assassin tree, and so on.

    New Challengers

    However, I did want to test the effectiveness of other builds, and to observe the ways that certain Enhancement trees or class abilities might interact with the performance for the three styles. Obviously, huge swings for these builds would mean that the power came from them, not the fighting style itself.

    The non-Standard builds (as they shall be referred to here) were:

    • Fighter Kensei, but moving all AP from Falconry into VKF (Str-Focused, Wis secondary)*
    • Tempest Ranger, Tempest Primary with Deepwood Stalker secondary (Str-Focused, Wis secondary)*
    • SWF Swashbuckler Bard/Barbarian/Favored Soul, Primary Frenzied Berserker/Swashbuckler, with points in Ravager and War Soul (Str-Focused, Cha secondary)
    • VKF Assassin, Assassin Primary, VKF Secondary (Int-Focused)

    * Because of the AP split, these builds did not have access to a Battle Trance

    Across ALL builds, I used the same weapons: Legendary Syranian X (Longsword/s, Handaxe, Daggers, etc), and I was careful to make sure that I was applying no debuffs which might unduly influence the testing: no PRR reductions, no Vulnerability. Just the weapon dice and the builds themselves would be factors that changed things.

    Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Kobold?

    The first tests were done with the Boss Kobolds, which importantly cannot be stunned, tripped, or otherwise made helpless.

    The Mean for the Standard builds was 9,029.7 damage per second (DPS), with the standard deviation being 756.8 DPS (8.38%).

    The Mean overall, for all builds, was 9,225.1 DPS, the standard deviation being 785.4 DPS (8.51%).

    For each of the builds, the first percentage given will be the difference compared to the standard Mean, and the second percentage will be the difference compared to the overall Mean.

    • SWF Kensei: 9,903.2 (+9.67%) [+7.35%]
    • TWF Kensei: 8,613.8 (-4.61%) [-6.63%]
    • THF Kensei: 8,572.1 (-5.07%) [-7.08%]
    • VKF Kensei: 8,691.7 (-3.74%) [-5.78%]
    • Assassin: 10,302.9 (+14.10%) [+11.68%]
    • Tempest: 8,540.7 (-5.42%) [-7.42%]
    • Barb Swash: 9,951.0 (+10.20%) [+7.87%]

    As the data shows, TWF only really does well in combination with Assassin. Even Tempest doesn't offer particularly exciting numbers. SWF does well on its own, with some improvements from Swashbuckler and Barbarian.

    THF's single-target damage is lackluster, but it's important to keep in mind: THF isn't intended to have competitive single-target damage. These comparisons don't account for Strikethrough. While the nerfs certainly effected THF, they have by no means made it obsolete.

    SWF certainly beats out both of these categories overall (in terms of single-target damage), with the exception of Assassin. I get the impression, based on my tests, that the strength of VKF lies in a tree that already has synergy with small blades (like Assassin), because switching the feats around and adding it to the standard build made it perform TERRIBLY in all contexts.

    Now, maybe SSG wants SWF to be stronger than TWF in terms of single-target damage. I can't speak to intent, only the consequences and the data.

    Pick on Someone Your Own Size!

    The next tests were done with the minon Kobolds, which CAN be stunned/tripped, etc.

    NOTE: THE BELOW CALCULATIONS ASSUME THAT ALL DPS TEST KOBOLDS HAVE 500,000 HIT POINTS.

    I couldn't find concrete answers regarding how much HP they have, so if you know that their HP differs from the Boss kobolds, let me know ASAP.

    The Mean DPS for the Standard builds was 15,952.9, with the standard deviation being 680.1 (4.26%).

    The Mean overall, for all builds, was 15,041.2, standard deviation was 2097.4 (13.94%).

    Just like the previous data, the first percent is the deviation from the Standard Mean, the second is the deviation from the Overall Mean. However, the THIRD percentage is the increase in damage compared to the Boss Kobold numbers.

    • SWF Kensei: 16,539.6 (+3.68%) [+9.96%] {+67.01%}
    • TWF Kensei: 16,111.7 (+1.00%) [+7.12%] {+87.05%}
    • THF Kensei: 15,207.4 (-4.67%) [+1.11%] {+77.41%}
    • VKF Kensei: 11,660.5 (-26.91%) [-22.48%] {+34.16%}
    • Assassin: 17,873.8 (+12.04%) [+18.83%] {+73.48%}**
    • Tempest: 13,195.9 (-17.28%) [-12.27%] {+54.51%}
    • Barb Swash: 14,699.2 (-7.86%) [-2.27%] {+47.72%}

    ** It's important to note that the numbers for Assassin are likely inaccurate. I noticed that, despite not taking Stunning Blow or any other means of making a target Helpless, I had near 100% helpless damage during the tests. I didn't realize until after I TR'd to the next build, that I was doing tests with Shadow Form toggled on, meaning that I was dealing stat damage to the Kobolds, and thereby making them helpless when their Str is reduced to 0. If Lammania was still up, I'd love to try the tests again, but...it's not.

    The builds with Falconry (the standard builds) performed very well compared to most of the other builds, which is only logical. Not only do they have an extra way to induce helplessness (the Falconry Trip Ability), they get extra Helpless damage as part of the tree.

    VKF Kensei, in addition to have mediocre damage to begin with, only has 1 way to force helplessness (Stunning Blow), and gets no bonus helpless damage.

    However, it is incredibly interesting that both Standard TWF and THF showed a larger increase in damage compared to SWF. I might theorize that TWF is getting in more blows more quickly, and is therefore taking advantage of the helplessness more effectively, but I have no explanation as to why THF would be performing so well. It may just be a funky quirk of the testing, a coincidence.

    Conclusion

    If you're interested in looking at the actual records I took during testing, you can check out the Spreadsheet here.

    All in all, these numbers aren't meant to be representative of the entire playerbase when it comes to damage, it's not even meant to represent most of the playerbase, I was deliberately using subpar weaponry and not taking advantage of debuffs, because I wanted the tests to be as scientific as I could make them, with as few different variables as I could manage.

    The takeaway, and what I want to highlight, is the ratios. How well each build does compared to each other, rather than "how well this build does compared to me."

    If the Devs intend SWF to do better single-target damage than TWF, then I guess they're in a good spot, and more changes aren't really needed apart from bugfixes. If it's not what they want, well, they can do whatever they like with the data here.

    tl;dr
    For boss: VKF Assassin > SWF > TWF > THF
    For trash: THF > TWF > VKF Assassin > SWF
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  2. #2
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Interesting data. Relatively similar to the numbers I've seen.

    At first glance THF and Vistani numbers should be higher, but that's likely just due to the weapon/build choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    The non-Standard builds (as they shall be referred to here) were:

    • Fighter Kensei, but moving all AP from Falconry into VKF (Str-Focused, Wis secondary)*
    • Tempest Ranger, Tempest Primary with Deepwood Stalker secondary (Str-Focused, Wis secondary)*
    • SWF Swashbuckler Bard/Barbarian/Favored Soul, Primary Frenzied Berserker/Swashbuckler, with points in Ravager and War Soul (Str-Focused, Cha secondary)
    • VKF Assassin, Assassin Primary, VKF Secondary (Int-Focused)

    * Because of the AP split, these builds did not have access to a Battle Trance

    Across ALL builds, I used the same weapons: Legendary Syranian X (Longsword/s, Handaxe, Daggers, etc), and I was careful to make sure that I was applying no debuffs which might unduly influence the testing: no PRR reductions, no Vulnerability. Just the weapon dice and the builds themselves would be factors that changed things.
    This is likely the part I'd take issue with. Keen raid weapons benefit THF way more than other styles so that's a significant amount of dps missing (and would also raise swashbucker dps with the new axe). Kensai/Vistani should be using KtA, missing trance is huge as well.
    Also, which THF weapon was used? I assume falchion?
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  3. #3
    Community Member therobb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    Hello adventurers, tis I, the Spooky Noodle, here to lay bare some statistical analysis:


    If the Devs intend SWF to do better single-target damage than TWF, then I guess they're in a good spot, and more changes aren't really needed apart from bugfixes. If it's not what they want, well, they can do whatever they like with the data here.

    tl;dr
    For boss: VKF Assassin > SWF > TWF > THF
    For trash: THF > TWF > VKF Assassin > SWF
    Great analysis and post!

    In summary:

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  4. #4
    Community Member SpookyNoodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Keen raid weapons benefit THF way more than other styles so that's a significant amount of dps missing.
    In that case, I'd argue that it's a bit like the conclusions I drew about VKF: the power of the tree/style doesn't lie in itself, but rather in its synergy with something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    So as a second data set, I ran the (unboosted) numbers for a basic kensai build using a generic L29 weapon (like your test) vs a keen raid weapon
    As a point of curiosity, what weapon did you use? I've been on the hunt for something that shows exactly how much of a difference the extra dice from Keen make on THF DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Kensai/Vistani should be using KtA, missing trance is huge as well.
    See, I get the impression that I tend to have a vastly different impression of Battle Trances than many players. I look at the Info dropdown in Inventory, and so a +4 difference between trance vs non-trance. Still, I didn't like it either, because it was another variable that was different between the tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Also, which THF weapon was used? I assume falchion?
    Ah no, I was using Syranian Greatsword.

    Overall, I really wish I'd had more time with Lammania to gather feedback like this and run the tests again. There's no "Syranian THF + Keen," but I'm sure I could've found something with minimal debuffs, and I would've really liked to do the VKF Kensei and Tempest Tests with KtA, put them on more even footing with the other builds. And getting more accurate numbers for assassin, without the stat-damage helplessness, would've been ideal as well.
    Last edited by SpookyNoodle; 02-20-2021 at 02:21 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    In that case, I'd argue that it's a bit like the conclusions I drew about VKF: the power of the tree/style doesn't lie in itself, but rather in its synergy with something else.
    As a point of curiosity, what weapon did you use? I've been on the hunt for something that shows exactly how much of a difference the extra dice from Keen make on THF DPS.
    Well from my numbers SWF went from 14% higher dps than THF to 10% higher switching to keen raid weapon dice, whereas THF only gained 0.5% compared to TWF.

    Basically, how much keen helps THF depends on what proportion of your damage comes from the dice. Since this is a nearly maxed out fighter example the difference is smaller than it would be with a less perfect build setup. SWF gets a much higher proportion of it's damage from attribute mod now, that that's why it benefits less.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    See, I get the impression that I tend to have a vastly different impression of Battle Trances than many players. I look at the Info dropdown in Inventory, and so a +4 difference between trance vs non-trance. Still, I didn't like it either, because it was another variable that was different between the tests.
    Trance damage is relatively easy to isolate, for my TWF kensai example:
    20 damage * 4 (melee power) * 3 attacks * 1.7 crit profile * 100 attacks / 60 seconds = 680 dps
    If you are using an insightful deadly item then it would only be a 408 dps difference.

    Trance is somewhat less important for THF, but even more important for vistani/tempest due to the extra attacks.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    Overall, I really wish I'd had more time with Lammania to gather feedback like this and run the tests again. There's no "Syranian THF + Keen," but I'm sure I could've found something with minimal debuffs, and I would've really liked to do the VKF Kensei and Tempest Tests with KtA, put them on more even footing with the other builds. And getting more accurate numbers for assassin, without the stat-damage helplessness, would've been ideal as well.
    Yes, we need a dps kobold on live. pls. ty.
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 02-20-2021 at 03:28 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    This is likely the part I'd take issue with. Keen raid weapons benefit THF way more than other styles so that's a significant amount of dps missing (and would also raise swashbucker dps with the new axe).
    So 1 Handed Longsword at 5[1d8 +2] Syrianan goes to 7[1d8+2] with plus 2[w] from build, total die damage of 45.5

    Raid keen 1 handed longsword would end up at 9[1d8+3), total die damage 67.5, for an increase of 22 damage over syrianan. (Soulrazor)

    2 Handed great sword at 5[2d6+4] goes to 7[2d6+4] with plus 2[w] from build, total die damage of 77.

    Raid keen 2 handed great sword would end up at 9[2d6+6], total die damage 117, for an increase of 40 damage over syrianan. (Blackrazor)

    Raid weapons cause THF to be closer to SWF than your tests show for single target damage.

  7. #7
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Raid weapons cause THF to be closer to SWF than your tests show for single target damage.
    I compared 6[w] non-raid to 8[w] raid weapons,

    SWF had a 13.8% lead with non raid and 10.3% lead with keen/raid.

    Changing to 7[w] and 9[w] would give 13.2% and 9.6% respectively, and obviously the more +[w] you add the closer it gets.
    Thelanis

  8. #8
    Community Member SpookyNoodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Yes, we need a dps kobold on live. pls. ty.
    From conversation with Steelstar on the Discord server:

    RE: DPS tests on ships: It's something we may get to, I know Sev wants us to make one. The test kobolds are a hack that is terribly, terribly bad for server performance. They're primarily a QA utility. We'd need to develop a safer version.
    and

    RE: Test Kobolds vs. Performance: I built them in about 15 minutes and they were never meant for player access. They're bad for performance by design. If we were ever going to make ones for Live, they'd need to be remade from scratch.
    So if we are getting reliable DPS tests on live...it probably won't be for a while.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    From conversation with Steelstar on the Discord server:



    and



    So if we are getting reliable DPS tests on live...it probably won't be for a while.
    Clearly the easiest way is to institute an actual Solo quest, similar to the feat change one; the only caveat would be to make it reaper so you can test varying reaper dps tests, as well as non reaper. They could also make other mobs for varying AC/fortification/saves etc. It's all a pipe dream though.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpookyNoodle View Post
    [*]SWF Swashbuckler Bard/Barbarian/Favored Soul, Primary Frenzied Berserker/Swashbuckler, with points in Ravager and War Soul (Str-Focused, Cha secondary)
    How come you go FVS here instead of Cleric?

    How would Bard/Fighter/Cleric look?

  11. #11
    Community Member Zorrbeania's Avatar
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    Default How long is Lamannia going to be down?

    I just downloaded the Lamannia app a couple days ago, but every time I try it out it's down. Is it just me, or is it down for everyone else too?
    Thanks!
    Sincerely, Zorrbeania

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    How come you go FVS here instead of Cleric?

    How would Bard/Fighter/Cleric look?
    I see FVS has haste boost thus is superior.

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