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  1. #181
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    ~6.7% damage (on the antithesis of your fighting styles point) is the difference between viable and flavor only? Really? That seems exceedingly knee-jerky to me, but to each their own I guess.
    On Lama I lost 30-40 base damage (depending on ED and self buffs used).
    That’s very big, trust me. Also, you have to consider the SWF changes and the fact that vs single targets THF is already lagging behind.
    Last edited by Gilga1; 02-11-2021 at 01:41 PM.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    If you play a THF with 50 STR, endgame balance is probably not your biggest concern
    True. I was merely contending with Cetus' rebuttal on the actual impact that it'll have on the casual players versus the non-casual players. I mean, why don't we assign a STR value for the casual player. It'll still be less than what the 1% have. Also, his comment of everyone hurting doesn't really bear any significance. Obviously a nerf to a combat style, class, etc. is going to affect all players whose character's fall under those criteria. Not everyone is affected equally by those changes, which is what several people were pointing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    As Cetus pointed us, THF is viable in current endgame as of now but this nerf is very significant and if this changes go live, THF will be a flavour-only style.
    I'm currently playing a maxed STR maxed melee power THF, I logged on lama... and I'll TR in SWF or TWF.
    Is that to say that SWF and TWF will be more viable than THF after these changes?

  3. #183
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    On Lama I lost 30-40 base damage (depending on ED and self buffs used).
    That’s very big, trust me. Also, you have to consider the SWF changes and the fact that vs sigle targets THF is already lagging behind.
    40 damage? You have 150 STR? Nice! that would make it closer to a 7% nerf, oh no!

    Yes, on single target 2HF is lagging behind slightly, that's the point. Their schtick is AoE, not single target damage. If they weren't lagging behind, there would be an uproar. Also, while the buff to SWF is nice (1.75x-2x (based on feat and offhand choices) mod now instead of 1.5x) it still would be unlikely to put it above TWF in that category, which is right. This means we get the spectrum of highest single target being 2WF, highest AoE being 2HF, and SWF being the middle point between the two.

    This just solidifies the roles that each fighting style excels at.

  4. #184
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Given how far behind 2wf is...

    I think that they should change p2WF to a bigger offhand doublestrike and remove the main hand doublestrike.

    They absolutely should add in MP to the chain to be fair against all the other styles.

    And +12.5% stat damage per feat (so total +50%).


    (I put this in a different thread, but it should have been here.)

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    On Lama I lost 30-40 base damage (depending on ED and self buffs used).
    That’s very big, trust me. Also, you have to consider the SWF changes and the fact that vs single targets THF is already lagging behind.
    That seems to be by design. With THF you hit more monsters and are able to use special attacks on more than one monster. With SWF and (non-tempest) TWF, you attack one monster more often. I have no doubt that some people will decide to switch to a different style, but I doubt that this'll turn THF from viable to non-viable.

  6. #186
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    If you play a THF with 50 STR, endgame balance is probably not your biggest concern

    As Cetus pointed us, THF is viable in current endgame as of now but this nerf is very significant and if this changes go live, THF will be a flavour-only style.
    I'm currently playing a maxed STR maxed melee power THF, I logged on lama... and I'll TR in SWF or TWF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    On Lama I lost 30-40 base damage (depending on ED and self buffs used).
    That’s very big, trust me. Also, you have to consider the SWF changes and the fact that vs single targets THF is already lagging behind.
    I respect your opinion a lot given my experiences with you in-game and on the forums but I can't see how what you're saying makes sense. You're saying that a 7% nerf takes THF from best-in-class to flavor-only?

    SWF is approximately half as good as THF currently (given most estimates I've seen); even with a 50% buff to it (0.5 THF x 1.5 = 0.75 THF) you'd still be worse with SWF than 0.93 THF, right? I don't think SWF is getting a 50% buff either, although I'd need to run some numbers to establish that. Or is SWF at like 94% of THF already? You'd definitely need to provide numbers or something to argue that; I think the prevalence of THF and lack of SWF in current endgame is a pretty strong argument that SWF is <94% of THF at present.

    Certainly these changes will push non-THF styles up a bit (especially for niche cases like pushing skulls in specific raids) but I can't see how a 7% nerf makes THF non-viable. It's a hit certainly (if any enemy goes from 3 hits-to-kill to 4 it's a big deal), but flavor-only?
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  7. #187
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    Given how far behind 2wf is...

    I think that they should change p2WF to a bigger offhand doublestrike and remove the main hand doublestrike.

    They absolutely should add in MP to the chain to be fair against all the other styles.

    And +12.5% stat damage per feat (so total +50%).


    (I put this in a different thread, but it should have been here.)
    Honestly 2WF, from a DPS standpoint, seems to be pretty good (at least VKF version). The problem is that they are the single target fighting style, in a game centered on AoE damage.

    It is an uphill battle, but where they excel, raids, they are the best.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerianus View Post
    a reason not to give one out is to put em on sale and try to sell em


    edit: yeah they are on sale now, the thread about sales popped out. yeah with a raid incoming, someone may judge a regular tr to take too much time to respec. bleah.
    Hm, fair.

    Well, that does seem a pretty ***** move. Most of the store moves are pretty bad. I'll continue to not buy hearts. Even on "sale". Isn't everyone in need of at least one more past life anyway ?

  9. #189
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    This just solidifies the roles that each fighting style excels at.
    I dont think balancing styles is that simple... SWF will gain a lot of ground. I'm not against the changes, but sometimes the changes make some builds uncompetitive in endgame. That’s fine ofc and I’m sure a lot of players will still have fun playing THF toons.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  10. #190
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Thank you for demonstrating how vindictive, arrogant, and privileged the 1% are.
    Comrade,

    I have never been, and will never be, the top 1% in anything, including DDO. My biggest accomplishment in DDO is my absolute BEST toon not dying in an R6 PN completion. I have ZERO completionists of ANY sort and the most reaper points I have on ANY toon is 21. While I do have 18 capped 30th level toons (I'm an alt-o-holic), the absolute most number of lives on ANY of them is seven (yes, 7) and the majority of those toons only have three lives so that they can be 36 point builds.

    I am also not "privileged" in any sense you're probably thinking. I will say I am able to donate fairly generously to the Children's Miracle Network, though, which has gotten me a few things in DDO and here on the Forums. For example, note the title under my handle.

    If I'm vindictive, it's because you deserve it. If I'm arrogant, it's because your posting brings it out.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown
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    Hi Welcome

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    I dont think balancing styles is that simple... SWF will gain a lot of ground. I'm not against the changes, but sometimes the changes make some builds uncompetitive in endgame. That’s fine ofc and I’m sure a lot of players will still have fun playing THF toons.
    Fair, but then again, what are we defining as competitive? Every thread about some change I read posts from people complaining about how this'll make this class uncompetitive or this'll make this combat style uncompetitive. So then I have to ask, what mark are we setting for the competition? Should each combat style be doing the same damage? Should each class have the same amount of survivability? Like what exactly are we looking for in our grand quest for a fair competition?

  12. #192
    Community Member PpalP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    Honestly 2WF, from a DPS standpoint, seems to be pretty good (at least VKF version). The problem is that they are the single target fighting style, in a game centered on AoE damage.

    It is an uphill battle, but where they excel, raids, they are the best.
    Yes, only rangers or vistani are viable options for DPS TWF; but we're not talking about specific builds or tree, we're talking about game balance, right? The TWF line is the worse of all, period.

  13. #193
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    You'd definitely need to provide numbers or something to argue that; I think the prevalence of THF and lack of SWF in current endgame is a pretty strong argument that SWF is <94% of THF at present
    I’m sharing a personal opinion based on my personal experience and on the experience of players I trust. I personally like the THF style despite its limits (I played some THF for fun even before the recent uber boost) and some guildies like to play THF too. I don’t think we will stay THF if these changes go live.

    I think everyone interested in dps should test his own stuff. Real testing is a good thing. You can test vs hp bags (like brunt r10), high fort enemies etc. You can record videos, compare animations, hits, damage, etc.
    Everyone is free to think that THF will still be good and devs ofc are free to make their own choices.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  14. #194
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    Fair, but then again, what are we defining as competitive?
    That’s a really good question, because DDO is not a competitive game.
    I was talking about my game experience. “Uncompetitive” in my context means: “We need a top tier dps” “Fine, I’ll be a THF pally” “**** you Tronko, are you **** kidding me, I said we need a dps”
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  15. #195
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PpalP View Post
    Yes, only rangers or vistani are viable options for DPS TWF; but we're not talking about specific builds or tree, we're talking about game balance, right? The TWF line is the worse of all, period.
    The feats, in a vacuum, are the worst of the feats, yes. We can agree on that. If you want to move power around from specific builds to general archetypes, that's fine, and I agree with you. But that said, atm ranger and VKF show what the archetype of 2WF can do, and as such, discussions of the strength of that archetype would be remiss to dismiss those as "not the fighting style itself"

  16. #196
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    I dont think balancing styles is that simple... SWF will gain a lot of ground. I'm not against the changes, but sometimes the changes make some builds uncompetitive in endgame. That’s fine ofc and I’m sure a lot of players will still have fun playing THF toons.
    Oh most assuredly, any balancing is never that simple, but the thought of getting slightly (7% is slight, you must admit) worse at the thing your build isn't designed to do is hardly making it "uncompetitive," no matter what definition you want to use.

    2HF specializes in sustained area damage. In pretty much any scenario where you are utilizing sustained area damage, your build will likely not notice that 7% nerf. If you are looking at single target DPS, you should be behind people specialized in that role, as that makes sense. That's like saying fire sorcs should have the best sustained single target damage despite their clear emphasis on burst AoE damage. It is unreasonable.

  17. #197
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    That’s a really good question, because DDO is not a competitive game.
    I was talking about my game experience. “Uncompetitive” in my context means: “We need a top tier dps” “Fine, I’ll be a THF pally” “**** you Tronko, are you **** kidding me, I said we need a dps”
    My initial calculations seem to indicate that most "average/generic" endgame builds (~100 DS, 300 MP, +1range/multiplier) builds will be about 10% higher single target dps using SWF over THF, keeping everything equal.

    Of course, not everything is equal. Maintaining the same stats would put swashbucklers ~30% higher than THF, but I haven't started speculating on what the new meta builds will be, might hit 40-50% higher...
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 02-11-2021 at 03:07 PM.
    Thelanis

  18. #198
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    atm ranger and VKF show what the archetype of 2WF can do, and as such, discussions of the strength of that archetype would be remiss to dismiss those as "not the fighting style itself"
    Say, like how (currently) fire sorc & alchemist currently show what the archtype of spell dps can do?

  19. #199
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    So looks like a bit more testing on Lam has been done. As the devs have dropped the grenade and gone AWOL, as per, can anyone confirm the nerf is from 3 to 2.5 definitely please, and not to 2?

  20. #200
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    Say, like how (currently) fire sorc & alchemist currently show what the archtype of spell dps can do?
    Burst AoE Damage, but yes. When people complain about Burst AoE Damage, those are who they are typically referring to, not Druids or FvS. This is actually the exact reason why fire sorc and alchys are getting nerfed and the other burst AoE damage ones are being buffed, as a means to redistribute that power. As I said, I would be down for some power shift within each school to make them more equitable, but if you are to compare across styles, it would be pertinent to compare the reasonable caps of those archetypes, and not just a random lower tier version within that archetype, when there is known disparity within that archetype.

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