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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    * Refs from https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11...-on-the-weave/
    * Jeremy Crawford is a game designer who has worked primarily on role-playing games. He is most widely known for being the Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast.
    * Christopher Perkins is a Canadian American game designer and editor who is known for his work on Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game.

    I checked if they're fakes, and it seems confirmable.
    While the weave functions as the "battery" which supplies the power for all magic, arcane and divine magic access that power differently. Arcane casters access magic by manipulating the structure of the weave itself, whether it be through direct connection (sorcerer), "performance" (bard), rigorous study (wizard), or backdoor hacking (warlock). Divines access their magic by being granted those abilities from their diety (cleric/ FvS/ Paladin) or from nature (druid / ranger). This is also one of the main reasons why divine magic tends to be less explody than arcane magic.

    So to get back to the question you were responding to: How does being a cleric help you with casting arcane spells that your deity probably doesn't want you to have (else they would have put it in your class spell list)?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    While the weave functions as the "battery" which supplies the power for all magic, arcane and divine magic access that power differently. Arcane casters access magic by manipulating the structure of the weave itself, whether it be through direct connection (sorcerer), "performance" (bard), rigorous study (wizard), or backdoor hacking (warlock). Divines access their magic by being granted those abilities from their diety (cleric/ FvS/ Paladin) or from nature (druid / ranger). This is also one of the main reasons why divine magic tends to be less explody than arcane magic.

    So to get back to the question you were responding to: How does being a cleric help you with casting arcane spells that your deity probably doesn't want you to have (else they would have put it in your class spell list)?
    Ah, I can understand now. then there seems to be nothing I can say I guess...


    By the way, If I assume, that sounds 5e spell slot system seems that you have an ability to bring some amount of power from the weave or deity, like when you have 8-level spell slot, it means you have a bucket of 8L magic-water, and you can hold the bucket to the weave or your deity then fill the bucket up, and you can pour the bucket into any spell - 18 Cleric(Healing Domain)/1 Wiz casting Magic Missile as 8-level spell.

    and If I lead this to my idea, Caster Level can be defined as the size of your bucket. Even if the casting method is different, You can spend much power into a spell. For a case of 18Clr/1Wiz again, They don't know much arcane casting, but They can get a lot of spell power from their deity, then pour into a magic missile spell with 18 Cleric's spell-bucket. For a case of 18Wiz/1Clr, You can get a lot of spell power by manipulating the weave and put them into Cure Light Wounds, while You don't know the higher-level divine spells since your deity doesn't give them to you.

    To expend the idea, Maximum Level of a spell system means, the spell has a limit of power you can spend into. Even if you have 20 Caster Level bucket, Fireball can only accept 10 Caster Level power... And, Caster Level is used to penetrate Spell Resistance - so it means you put a lot of power into a spell to break their Spell Resistance Barrier as if you throwing a boulder rather than a tiny stone.

    If your deity doesn't like Arcane method, then you'll be punished, but let's say this in Pen&Paper, not in DDO. (since you can literally do FvS + Warlock multi in DDO.)



    So, the conclusion of my guess is:
    the difference between Divine / Arcane casting is up to obtaining different spells, but also how to get power from a source - weave, deity, patron.
    Specialized in Arcane casting means you can access higher arcane spells as difficult arcane arts, while specialized in Divine casting means your deity gives you good divine spells.
    Specialized in any casting means your magic-water bucket grows and gets bigger so that you can contain more power into your bucket from the source.
    but wherever you get the power regardless of its source, you can put all the power you have into any spell you want - and the spell works as much as the amount of power you spent into.



    ----
    EDIT:
    the power, of course, follows its source. the power has the origin. Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power.
    but the spell system of the weave doesn't care where the power came from.

    Still the arts of spellcasting is up to your ability score.
    Let's say you are:
    *13Clr/7wiz with 100 INT(CL 20). It means you are very smart of arcane study, rather than an idiot just pushing all of your power into a spell. By your divine power + arcane power combined into a spell, you could easily penetrate a foe's Spell Resistance like a truck charges to him, but also You can manipulate your Phantasmal Killer is too realistic by spell casting arts of your INT.
    *19Clr/1Sor with 100 CHA(CL 20). You are very charismatic as much as you can persuade the world that your magic is powerful, though you only cast Niac's coldray things.
    *11Clr/9Pal with 100 WIS(Cleric CL 14 / Paladin CL 20). Why not? You have the same deity as Paladin and Cleric. By adding Paladin's spell bucket, You can easily penetrate a foe's SR with Cleric spells - command, Greater command, etc - but also your Paladin buff spells are long enough, plus your Cleric Spell doesn't lose too much power by taking Paladin - a class that even knows divine casting. Having higher WIS means you can understand what to do precisely with a spell which a deity gave you.
    alike this?

    but all of this assumption is based on the current 5e system, while we play 3.5e system that the era we used to not accept this idea.
    Last edited by Targal; 01-27-2021 at 10:26 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    Ah, I can understand now. then there seems to be nothing I can say I guess...

    By the way, If I assume, that sounds 5e spell slot system seems that you have an ability to bring some amount of power from the weave or deity, like when you have 8-level spell slot, it means you have a bucket of 8L magic-water, and you can hold the bucket to the weave or your deity then fill the bucket up, and you can pour the bucket into any spell - 18 Cleric(Healing Domain)/1 Wiz casting Magic Missile as 8-level spell.
    This is close enough to how it works, actually.

    The real difference here is that the spell slot is what determines damage in 5e, not caster level, with a tiny portion determined by character level (mostly cantrips).
    A level 16 Fighter/4 Warlock casting Eldritch Blast deals the same damage just as accurately as a level 20 Warlock would.
    A level 1 Wizard casting a level 1 Magic Missile does the same damage as a level 20 Wizard casting a level 1 Magic Missile.

    DDO doesn't have spell slots. We have mana.
    A multiclass character with multiple casting classes DOES have more mana than if they multiclassed into non-spellcasting classes in the end, so that part is already fulfilled. You can use the mana you got from Sorcerer to cast your Warlock spells just fine.

    The DDO equivalent would be letting a 19 Wizard/1 Cleric spend enough mana to Heighten their Cure Light Wounds to the highest they can in order to get the maximum caster level possible.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    This is close enough to how it works, actually.

    The real difference here is that the spell slot is what determines damage in 5e, not caster level, with a tiny portion determined by character level (mostly cantrips).
    A level 16 Fighter/4 Warlock casting Eldritch Blast deals the same damage just as accurately as a level 20 Warlock would.
    A level 1 Wizard casting a level 1 Magic Missile does the same damage as a level 20 Wizard casting a level 1 Magic Missile.

    DDO doesn't have spell slots. We have mana.
    A multiclass character with multiple casting classes DOES have more mana than if they multiclassed into non-spellcasting classes in the end, so that part is already fulfilled. You can use the mana you got from Sorcerer to cast your Warlock spells just fine.

    The DDO equivalent would be letting a 19 Wizard/1 Cleric spend enough mana to Heighten their Cure Light Wounds to the highest they can in order to get the maximum caster level possible.
    It seems I should theorize that further, then It will be...

    * Spell Level: your knowledge that allows you to access to a certain category(divine, arcane) of spells.
    * Spell: a magic bucket that you choose from the spell lists and a container to be filled with the power.
    * Difficulty Class: the accuracy/control of the spell/power. (It explains why your spells can't hit archers.)
    * Spellpoints ('mana') : your mental ability(endurance) to reach the sources and bring powers from them. (It explains why 19wiz/1clr can spend all his mana into Cure Light Wounds(CLW), but also why the 'mnemonic' elixirs restore your 'mana'. So, This is not mana actually.)
    * Caster Level: the density of the power in a spell. (It explains why 19wiz/1clr's CLW is effective enough)
    => as Half Casters and Third Casters aren't capable of making their power denser, that's why they get less Caster Level to other classes.

    So, This is why 7 Pal/13 Wizard's Phantasmal killer is less capable of penetrating Spell Resistance and their damaging spells aren't dense enough to deal damage due to lack of Caster Level, while 7 Clr/13 Wizard's PK is better to penetrate SR and their Chain Lightning deals decent damage by their dense power.


    then someone might give me a question: "when 19Pal/1Clr casts Cure Light Wounds, it means 20 CL(Pal's) and 7 CL(Clr's). That doesn't explain why Cleric's CLW is weaker than Pal's."

    To say that, blame the weave. the weave made this weird spell system.(of course, It's SSG.) well, the weave made multiple same spells working the same effect which accept the different power. That's why Bard, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers have Cure Light Wounds. Also, that's why Bard's CLW is an arcane spell.

    Let's say there are buckets of a spell: Bucket of Paladin CLW, Bucket of Cleric CLW. (You are still 19 Pal/1 Cleric)
    the weave is a so good and kind guy so that it made the bucket of Paladin CLW differently, only for them. the bucket has the auto-pressing feature so that paladin can press the power into it with his less effort.
    While the weave only shaped the bucket of Cleric CLW with no touch and no auto-pressing, the 19 Paladin has some trouble to make the power denser in the spell bucket. He should bring the bucket that fits him.
    If you are 4 Pal/16 Wizard, then you have no problem of using the bucket of Paladin CLW, because you don't need (much) the auto-pressing feature due to your skilful wizard ability (and a little of Paladin ability).
    If you are 16 Pal/4 Ranger. the reason why their CLW caster level is different is that each of the auto-pressing featured buckets works differently. Having more paladin means you understand about Paladin buckets more. Ranger buckets work differently.
    (Even if it isn't for justifying my theory, It's still true that the weave made the weird spell system that it made the same multiple spells since 10 Pal/10 Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds poorly with 10 CL in the current DDO.)




    Let's get deeper into the whole flow: (* main description / # follwing description)
    1. Your Spellpoint is 500.
    * [Definition] Spellpoint: It means your mental endurance to bring power from the source.
    * We usually call this as Mana because of some fantasy concepts and games, It doesn't mean the mana literally.
    # With a short waiting, Your mana can be restored to 12 from 0 by Echoes of Power. It means Casters know how to meditate. (Actually, It is a kinda compensation to casters since they haven't cantrips in DDO.)
    # Madstone Rage or some debuffs prevent you to cast spells. It means you get difficult to concentrate, while your mental endurance is not damaged.


    2. You know a spell: Searing Light. (by 5 Cleric)
    * [Definition] Spell: A magic bucket that you can contain the power into at the source.
    # By having cleric levels, Your deity grants you access to divine spells.
    # Simple description: "You choose a spell bucket of Searing Light from the list which your deity gave you."

    3. Casting the spell: Searing Light, 8 SP.
    * [Definition] Spell SP cost: It means the amount of a spell requires from your mental efforts to reach the sources along with the spell.
    * This first move of your spellcasting means you go to the source with the spell - reaching.
    # Bigger spells(ex. meteor) require to cost your mental endurance more because the spell bucket is big.
    # Since it's a divine spell, You'll reach to the deity, as your power source of the spell.
    # If you have 10% reduce SP cost enhancement or gear, it means it boosts your speed to reach the sources, like making the route paved or you riding a car to the source whatever.
    # Simple description: "You're on the magic road to the source with the 8kg spell bucket."

    4. Your class is 5 Wiz, 5 Cleric: Caster Level 10.
    * [Definition] Caster Level: the value of Class Level means the density of a spell - how much you can press the power into a spell effectively, once you reach to the source with a spell.
    * The intermediate move of your spellcasting - pressing.
    # After reaching to the source along with your spell, You get the power from the source and press the power into a spell, to make it denser. If you are a skilled caster, You can press the power into a spell as much as you can.
    # Having a full caster class means that you practice pressing the power into a spell effectively.
    # while a half/third caster class means that you'll less aware of how to press the power into a spell effectively.
    # Simple description: "You arrived at the source. From the source, You get and pour the magic water into the spell bucket, then you boil the magic water to make it thicker."
    # Paladin version: "You arrived at the source. From the source, You get and pour the magic water into the spell bucket, then you hit the [auto] button to make the magic water thicker."
    # To be honest, I believe the 'mana' in DDO means the density of the power.

    5. Shoot Searing Light to an enemy: Evaded or hit by DC of your spell.
    * [Definition] DC: Your accuracy or sharpness of a spell.
    * This finishing move of your spellcasting - controlling, means how precise you cast and control your spell.
    # Your strong belief and understanding of your deity(Widsom) help you to control the spell.
    # Simple description: "You throw your spell bucket to a foe with the accuracy by your wisdom stat."

    6. Spell deals the enemy & penetrates Spell Resistance (if it is a debuff spell)
    # Damaging case: "the density of the magic water was quite thicker to make the effect critical enough."
    # Penetrating SR case: "their water-proof coat couldn't counter the density of the magic water."

    Still, some spells have the limit as Maxmimum Caster Level. It means there is a density imitation to each spell buckets. But You can cheat the density limitation of the spells by earning Master of Magic feats or some Spellcasting enhancements.



    So, in this theory, I can say memorized spells are actually the same ones in 5e spell slots in a way describing that you hold a bucket to the source, although 5e spell slots are one-time usable buckets while DDO spell slots are non-breakable buckets that you can use again and again. and Spellpoint doesn't mean the amount of your power, but means how much you can use your unbreakable buckets.



    Well, This is still the DDO version magic theory to justify my idea.


    P.S. Sorry for the theory post that is very unarranged and may not be readable!
    Last edited by Targal; 01-28-2021 at 03:31 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    It seems I should theorize that further, then It will be...

    * Spell Level: your knowledge that allows you to access to a certain category(divine, arcane) of spells which require your power.
    * Spell: a magic bucket that you choose from the spell lists.
    * Difficulty Class: the accuracy/control of your power. (It explains why your spells can't hit archers.)
    * Spellpoints ('mana') : your mental ability(endurance) to reach the sources and bring powers from them. (It explains why 19wiz/1clr can spend all his mana into Cure Light Wounds(CLW), but also why the 'mnemonic' elixirs restore your 'mana'. So, This is not mana actually.)
    * Caster Level: the density of your power. (It explains why 19wiz/1clr's CLW is effective enough)
    => as Half Casters and Third Casters aren't capable of making their power denser, that's why they get less Caster Level to other classes.
    I like this theorizing, but I can actually give you credible definitions that make the current system work.

    Spell Level: The skill necessary to cast a spell. A "you must be THIS tall to ride"
    I actually agree with the funny Spell definition, so I'm keeping it as-is.
    Spellpoints are your mental reserves alright. They represent mental fatigue. In some systems, this value actually INCREASES until your character faints from exhaustion.
    Caster Level: Here, we strongly differ. This is the caster's skill and knowledge.

    I can build a paper airplane. An engineer can build a paper airplane.
    Airplane Building is a level 1 Engineering spell.
    The person with more Engineering skill's paper airplane will DEFINITELY look better and fly farther than mine.

    With more skill and knowledge, both my capacity to build paper airplanes AND my ability to learn more complex Engineering spells would increase - up to a cap for Paper Airplanes, much like spells have a Max Caster Level; there is such a thing as a fully optimized paper airplane.

    So the spell level is the minimum skill required to cast the spell.
    The caster level is the actual skill behind it.
    You do not gain skill at casting studied and researched Wizard spells by learning how to cast them innately as a Sorcerer, nor do you get better at invoking your God by making a pact with a Great Old One.
    You COULD make the argument about Bards and Sorcerers, Druids and Rangers, and Paladins and Clerics - they get their power from the same source, they just learn how to use it differently, but even then, the casting method is different and so is the way the spells are learned.

    Also, in 5e, a caster that takes levels in another class does NOT increase in actual caster level.
    Just gets progressively better at fighting off mental fatigue, because that's one thing all casters DO have in common.
    By exerting themselves more, they can achieve effects with their lower level spells they couldn't before.
    As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "caster level" in 5e.

    In 3.5, the Vancian casting says a certain spell takes a certain effort to cast and achieves a certain result. You can get better of the same result with more skill, but actually making a spell require extra effort in order to achieve further results requires extensive training (a "feat") that's not generally available or used by every caster.

    Going back to my paper airplane example:
    In 3.5, both me and the engineer building a paper airplane, his result will be much higher than mine would be despite spending the same amount of effort.
    In 5e, if both of us spent the same time building the same plane, it'd get identical results, but the engineer has the opportunity to tweak and work at his paper airplane longer than I did and get results astoundingly higher than mine.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    In DDO, this feat will be seriously questionable in the balance issue.
    Since we have a bunch of HD by Epic levels while we don't get caster levels by them, Picking up the feat twice as a pure caster means you can take extra +4 and +4 Caster levels to Spell Penetration without Heroic Spell Penetration(+2), but also +4 and +4 CL to some no ML damaging spells. (ex. Dragonic ED Spells 30 Character Level + 6 by ED cores + 3 by ED enhances + 6 by Sorcerer Cores + 4 and 4 by the feat -> 53 CL)
    Of course, SSG can change as we don't get caster levels by Epic level HD, but, then I believe it will be useless. In my idea, There isn't much usefulness to a single caster level by +4 only, and DDO has more feats better than it. (although having such feat can be fun to combine with something.)
    Considering the current implementation of Epic Levels in DDO you would only gain the +4 caster levels once, no matter how many times you take the Practiced spellcaster feat, because you must take the feat for a different spellcasting class each time.

    For example:
    If you are a 20th-level character who has 5 Cleric levels, 5 Sorcerer levels and 10 Druid levels, then your caster levels are:
    • Cleric: 5
    • Sorcerer: 5
    • Druid: 10

    Taking the feat for cleric spells increases your cleric caster level to 9:
    • Cleric: 5+4 =9
    • Sorcerer: 5
    • Druid: 10

    Then taking the feat a second time for sorcerer spells increases your sorcerer caster level to 9:
    • Cleric: 5+4 =9
    • Sorcerer: 5+4 = 9
    • Druid: 10

    And finally taking the feat a third time for Druid spells increases your druid caster level to 14:
    • Cleric: 5+4 =9
    • Sorcerer: 5+4 = 9
    • Druid: 10+4 = 14


    This being said, you are right that implementing the feat as it is written would cause power creep, because how epic levels were implemented in DDO.
    In 3.5 you can take additional class levels after 20, so at character level 30 you could have taken 30 wizard levels, which would have given you 30 caster levels for wizard spells.

    There is an easy solution for this problem - restrict the HD check for the heroic levels:
    • Since you can only gain class levels in the heroic levels it is enough to check up to 20 HD
    • If your character levels are grater than 20 for the purposes of this feat you count as being a level 20 character


    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    Extra free power concept from the idea is kinda originated from 5e concept, although I can understand the suggested idea is something too free in people's opinion, but I don't think It's too free. I believe It's just a kinda compensation for caster+caster multiclassing.
    You are correct, the feat was created to help multiclass characters gain some caster levels back for sacrificing a feat.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    ...

    This being said, you are right that implementing the feat as it is written would cause power creep, because how epic levels were implemented in DDO.
    In 3.5 you can take additional class levels after 20, so at character level 30 you could have taken 30 wizard levels, which would have given you 30 caster levels for wizard spells.

    There is an easy solution for this problem - restrict the HD check for the heroic levels:
    • Since you can only gain class levels in the heroic levels it is enough to check up to 20 HD
    • If your character levels are grater than 20 for the purposes of this feat you count as being a level 20 character




    You are correct, the feat was created to help multiclass characters gain some caster levels back for sacrificing a feat.
    I may be mistaken, but, in 3.5e, Class levels still capped at 20 per class. If you went into Epic levels, the classes you gained would have to be from a different class.

    Therefore, a level 25 character could cap a Wizard at 20, the remaining 5 levels would have to be from a different class, say Cleric. Hence you would have a Wiz 20/Cleric 5. The class cap applies regardless of when the levels were taken.

    Ex.
    At level 20 - the character could be 10 Wizard/10 Cleric. Going Epic (up to thirty), the character could go 20 Wizard/10 Cleric, or 15 Wizard/15 Cleric, or 10 Wizard/20 Cleric or 10 Wizard/10 Cleric/10 Warlock.

    This is how I thought, or rather hoped, DDO would implement Epic Levels.

    This is the way my PnP group implemented them, BTW.

    The Practiced Spellcaster feat (which I am definitely in favor of), if taken once, would then be implemented as follows:

    Wizard 20+4 = 24 caster levels
    Cleric 5 = 5 caster levels

    or

    Wizard 20 = 20 caster levels
    Cleric 5+4 = 9 caster levels

    *This is dependent upon when A. the classes were taken and B. when the Feat was taken.

    If taken twice:

    Wizard 20+4 = 24 caster levels
    Cleric 5+4= 9 caster levels
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    Quote Originally Posted by salmag View Post
    I may be mistaken, but, in 3.5e, Class levels still capped at 20 per class. If you went into Epic levels, the classes you gained would have to be from a different class.

    Therefore, a level 25 character could cap a Wizard at 20, the remaining 5 levels would have to be from a different class, say Cleric. Hence you would have a Wiz 20/Cleric 5. The class cap applies regardless of when the levels were taken.
    Entirely mistaken :P

    There's such a thing as "Epic Progression" for all base classes, and even a lot of the 10-level Prestige Classes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Entirely mistaken :P

    There's such a thing as "Epic Progression" for all base classes, and even a lot of the 10-level Prestige Classes.
    Good to know... That wasn't the way that we handled Epic levels (ah, homebrew)...

    I had to look it up...

    Interesting to note:

    "For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat."

    I would guess the DDO equivalent would be "No More SPs (other than ability score increases)" once you hit Epics (that is, unless you pick up the Epic Feat)...

    I also take that to mean that Spells get stronger (higher Caster level), but the spells remain the same...

    I would still prefer the Practiced Spellcaster feat...
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