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  1. #1
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    Default Idea for Caster Level revamp as 5e style

    --[Idea]
    Since I usually imagine something and wanted to bring 5e caster level concept into DDO, I wrote down this.
    Each level of a class, They additionally gain a feat which increases your caster level by 1.



    --[Table]

    Class: This means Class Caster Level. This is the quite basic CL in DDO.
    Share: This means Shared Caster Level across the classes you have. In a similar term of DDO, We usually say this as "Character Caster Level."
    Exclu: This means Class CL + Shared CL which is applied to a class 'exclusively.' Simply, a sum value.

    Examples and detailed explanation are below.



    --[Full Casters: Cleric, Wizard, Druid, etc...]
    1 to 20 levels, They gain Standard Caster Level feat at each leveling.
    * Standard Caster Level feat: You gain caster level by 1 to all spells you cast.
    * From this point, I'll describe this as SCL feat.


    ex)
    • 20 Cleric
      -> 20 Standard Caster Level feats
      = 20 Caster Level.
      * in the table, Cleric has 0 to all Class value for Caster Level. It doesn't mean Cleric has no Caster Level. They get CL by Standard Caster Level feats
    • 5 Cleric, 6 Wizard
      -> 5 Standard Caster Level feats from 5 Cleric
      -> 6 Standard Caster Level feats from 6 Wizard
      = 5+6 SCL feats in total = 11 Caster Level
      = Casts Jump & Cure & Magic Missile spells at 11 CL.
    • 16 Cleric, 3 Favored Soul, 1 Wizard
      -> 16 SCL feats from 16 Cleric
      -> 3 SCL feats from 3 Favored Soul
      -> 1 SCL feats from 1 Wizard
      = 16+3+1 SCL feats in total = 20 Caster Level
      = Casts Favored Soul's SLAs & Jump and MM spells at 20 CL



    [Half Casters: Artificer, Alchemist, etc...]
    From this point, the system gets a bit complicated.
    Every odd leveling(1, 3, 5...), They gain Standard Caster Level feat.
    Every even leveling(2, 4, 6...), They gain Class Caster Level feat.
    * Class Caster Level feat: You gain caster level by 1 to spells of your certain class.
    * ex)Artificer Caster Level feat: You gain caster level by 1 to Artificer spells you cast.
    * 10 Artificer will have 5 SCL feats & 5 Artificer Caster Level feat.
    * From this point, I'll describe the Class Caster Level feat as CCL feat.


    ex)
    • 10 Artificer
      = 10 Caster Level to Artificer exclusively. (5 SCL + 5 CCL)
    • 5 Cleric, 5 Artificer
      -> 5 SCL feats from 5 Cleric
      -> 3 SCL + 2 CCL feats from 5 Artificer
      = 5+3+2 Caster Level to Artificer exclusively(10 CL)
      = 5+3 Caster Level to Cleric exclusively(8 CL)
    • 5 Alchemist, 5 Artificer, 1 Wizard
      -> 3 SCL + 2 CCL feats from 5 Artificer
      -> 3 SCL + 2 CCL feats from 5 Alchemist
      -> 1 SCL feat from 1 Wizard
      = 3+3+2+1 Caster Level to Artificer exclusively(9 CL), casting Arti Spells at 9 CL.
      = 3+3+2+1 Caster Level to Alchemist exclusively(9 CL), casting Vials at 9 CL.
      = 3+3+1 Caster Level to Wizard exclusively(7 CL), casting Jump spell at 7 CL.




    --[Third Casters: Paladin, Rangers]
    Every third leveling(3, 6, 9, 12...), They gain SCL feat.
    Otherwise, They gain CCL feat.

    • 10 Paladin
      = 10 Caster Level to Paladin exclusively. (3 SCL + 7 CCL)
    • 19 Paladin, 1 Wizard
      -> 6 SCL + 13 CCL feats from 19 Paladin
      -> 1 SCL feat from 1 Wizard
      = 6+1 Caster Level to Wizard exclusively(7 CL)
      = 6+13+1 Caster Level to Paladin exclusively(20 CL)
      = Casts Jump spell at 7 Caster Level, Since your Wizard Caster Level is 7.




    --[ETC: Warlock]
    Since Warlock has different 5e spell slot system, I tried this a bit differently.
    1 to 10, They gain SCL feat like full casters.
    11 to 20, They gain CCL feat only exclusive to Warlock Spells.

    • 12 Warlock
      = 12 Caster Level (10 SCL + 2 CCL)
    • 15 Warlock, 5 Cleric
      -> 10 SCL + 5 CCL from 15 Warlock
      -> 5 SCL from 5 Cleric
      = 10+5 Caster Level to Cleric exclusively(15 CL)
      = 10+5+5 Caster Level to Warlock exclusively(20 CL)




    --[Extra: Enhancements, Feats]
    Maybe like this?
    Fighter Eldritch Knight Core 1[1 lvl]: Every core ability, You gain Standard Caster Level feat by 1.
    Fighter Eldritch Knight Core 2[3 lvl]: You access 1 level arcane spells as if you are 1 Wizard - having a spellbook now. Caster Level is 2 since you have 2 Cores.
    Artificer Alchemical Knowledge feat: Gain a caster level to Vial spells.

    About Destinies, I'm not sure... the current version is like they give us 6 CCL. Maybe Change them as giving 3 SCL and 3 CCL?


    --[Aside]
    Full casters can cast 9 Level Spells. (Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Favored Soul)
    Half casters can cast 6 Level Spells. (Bard, Artificer, Alchemist)
    Third caster can cast 4 Level Spells. (Ranger, Paladin)
    Last edited by Targal; 01-27-2021 at 10:44 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I guess my main question is...why?

    You could split a caster build and still maintain full Caster Level, great. So you're casting two spellbooks at L20, but you only have access to the first ~5 levels of each spellbook - so you're mainly casting spells that are MCL10 or 15 anyway. And you're not going to have spells that are worth using to endgame, either.

    Aside from increasing duration on low-level buffs for caster splash classes, I dont see what this would actually change. You could do an 11 Clr/9 Wiz and have Heal, sounds cool, but then your best attack is...MCL15 Ball Lightning? Cone of Cold?

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I guess my main question is...why?

    You could split a caster build and still maintain full Caster Level, great. So you're casting two spellbooks at L20, but you only have access to the first ~5 levels of each spellbook - so you're mainly casting spells that are MCL10 or 15 anyway. And you're not going to have spells that are worth using to endgame, either.

    Aside from increasing duration on low-level buffs for caster splash classes, I dont see what this would actually change. You could do an 11 Clr/9 Wiz and have Heal, sounds cool, but then your best attack is...MCL15 Ball Lightning? Cone of Cold?
    Quote Originally Posted by Targal
    I wanted to bring 5e caster level concept into DDO
    It's written at the opening. I like the concept of 5e caster level because I can't get how inefficient it can be when you take both caster classes like, when you take 11 Cleric and 9 Fvs, Your CL gets gross than being a pure, even you have two divine caster classes.
    Well, Think of 14 Alch, 6 Sorcerer. You will cast Lightning Bolt at 7+6 CL, and If you have Master of Air feat and Dragonic Incarnation, Your CL/MCL for Lightning bolt will be 19/20. and as Alchemist you can still Throw Vials at 20 CL. (regardless it's worthy or not.)

    About actual change, It may bring people's interest in combining caster+caster multiclasses than usual.



    Quote Originally Posted by droid327
    You could do an 11 Clr/9 Wiz and have Heal, sounds cool, but then your best attack is...MCL15 Ball Lightning? Cone of Cold?
    Let's see this...
    If you take Fireball and Master of Fire feat, You can cast fireball as 20 CL/20 MCL. (Or Lightning Bolt)
    Also, You can cast Death Aura and Healing Aura at 20 CL with no lose. What a concept.
    You can cast Harm as 15 CL on yourself if you take an undead form.

    Well, Not worthy? Indeed, I just like the concept.
    Last edited by Targal; 01-25-2021 at 01:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I guess my main question is...why?

    You could split a caster build and still maintain full Caster Level, great. So you're casting two spellbooks at L20, but you only have access to the first ~5 levels of each spellbook - so you're mainly casting spells that are MCL10 or 15 anyway. And you're not going to have spells that are worth using to endgame, either.

    Aside from increasing duration on low-level buffs for caster splash classes, I dont see what this would actually change. You could do an 11 Clr/9 Wiz and have Heal, sounds cool, but then your best attack is...MCL15 Ball Lightning? Cone of Cold?
    On the other hand you can run in magister, twist spell knowledge from draconic, take master of fire feat and with 5 sorc lvls spam lvl 26 fireball and still, for example, be able to heal yourself with 15 cler lvls...

    I honestly have no idea why modify system that (more or less) works well and create something (at the very least) dangerous for game balance without any reason other than being able to make some weird builds noone serious would even think about now.

  5. #5
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    Which brings up these questions to the Devs:

    "Why don't Epic Levels increase Caster Levels?"
    "Why do we still have Caster Levels tied to Epic Destinies?"
    "Why do Epic Destinies immediately grant +5 Caster Levels at level 20 then nothing after level 20?"
    "Why do Epic Destinies limit which classes they grant Caster Levels to?"
    "If you are considering raising the level cap again, will you please revamp how Epic Destinies handle Caster Levels?"

  6. #6
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    Perhaps I should be more clear.

    If the level cap increases 35 (which is likely sooner or later given the current philosophy), then true D&D concepts would attribute +15 caster levels at least to the toons primary class.

    This is far more than your interesting ideas would provide and follows classic D&D philosophy.

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    A long time ago, a certain developer hoped to push thru changing caster levels from being tied to epic destinies to being tied to epic levels.
    I wish he had been successful.

    The main argument stopping thus was concern that Shirdai would become over powerful.
    Ironically, Shirdai was nerfed multiple times anyway, making the argument that stopped this good change a mote point.
    Sigh, we could have had this fixed years ago.

    Reminds me of the bank increases that almost made it to lamania.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 01-25-2021 at 02:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    --[Idea]
    Way more complex than what we have right now.
    Also why does the full caster class remain at 0 in the table?
    Does that mean that Sorc and FvS are a double caster class?

    I guess what you are trying to do is make some sort of casting BAB.
    But instead of feats it is a determinator for which spells you can drop into your spellbook/memorize/etc and how "hard" you can cast them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    Way more complex than what we have right now.
    It's actually almost the same of 5e system. You're literally saying 5e caster level system is complex, otherwise my explanation is not legit enough to understand.

    Also why does the full caster class remain at 0 in the table?
    Does that mean that Sorc and FvS are a double caster class?
    I guess It wasn't interpreted well...
    Class CL means it only goes to a class.
    For example,
    If 20 Cleric gets 20 Class CL, It means you have 20 Caster Level for Cleric only, not 20 Character Caster Level to every spell. (which is the current version)
    If 20 Cleric gets 20 Shared CL, It means you have 20 Character Caster Level for every spell.

    Full casters get Shared CL at every leveling and their caster level is shared across the whole casting classes.

    I guess what you are trying to do is make some sort of casting BAB.
    But instead of feats it is a determinator for which spells you can drop into your spellbook/memorize/etc and how "hard" you can cast them.
    Saying feat way is to make developers develop, understand and realize this easily. You know, the engine of this game is not... well.
    They'll not need many resources when they use this feat way.
    Last edited by Targal; 01-25-2021 at 03:51 AM.
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    The idea is that in 5e, caster level unlocks higher level spell slots, and spell slots are what powers your lower level spells higher.

    5e basically removed extra spells per day from having a high ability score to adjust the power level of some casters, and made multiclassing work a bit better to offset.

    A 15th level Sorcerer in 5e using a 3rd level spell slot to cast Fireball does the same damage as a level 5 Sorcerer. Caster level is much less relevant in 5e, which made the developers have less issues with handing it out.

    The DDO equivalent would me making each spell select what power it should be cast at, and then costing more or less mana depending on the level chosen. Incidentally, this is how psionics work in 3.5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    It's written at the opening. I like the concept of 5e caster level because I can't get how inefficient it can be when you take both caster classes like, when you take 11 Cleric and 9 Fvs, Your CL gets gross than being a pure, even you have two divine caster classes.
    Well, Think of 14 Alch, 6 Sorcerer. You will cast Lightning Bolt at 7+6 CL, and If you have Master of Air feat and Dragonic Incarnation, Your CL/MCL for Lightning bolt will be 19/20. and as Alchemist you can still Throw Vials at 20 CL. (regardless it's worthy or not.)

    About actual change, It may bring people's interest in combining caster+caster multiclasses than usual.




    Let's see this...
    If you take Fireball and Master of Fire feat, You can cast fireball as 20 CL/20 MCL. (Or Lightning Bolt)
    Also, You can cast Death Aura and Healing Aura at 20 CL with no lose. What a concept.
    You can cast Harm as 15 CL on yourself if you take an undead form.

    Well, Not worthy? Indeed, I just like the concept.
    Doing something just because you like 5e isn't a valid enough reason on its own...

    Yes you could mc casters with full CL. At worst it doesn't change anything. .at best you've created noob traps. Even at CL20, fireball will not carry you through epic without higher level spells like meteor swarm. Having lots of mediocre spells but no good ones doesn't help.

    I get what you're going for, but diversity of casting is one of those many ideas that sounds good on paper but just isn't suited to the game as it exists today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Doing something just because you like 5e isn't a valid enough reason on its own...

    Yes you could mc casters with full CL. At worst it doesn't change anything. .at best you've created noob traps. Even at CL20, fireball will not carry you through epic without higher level spells like meteor swarm. Having lots of mediocre spells but no good ones doesn't help.

    I get what you're going for, but diversity of casting is one of those many ideas that sounds good on paper but just isn't suited to the game as it exists today.
    the game doesn't exist for only the end contents. and at some point, I don't think people would agree with whatever I say, but if I say anyway - my primary idea is to let casters have options to multiclass since this game extremely forces them to be a pure. then someone will still say to me it is not valid enough I guess, then what can be valid, hmm.

    and I definitely know this won't change the damaging spells in most cases. It'll be least helpful for utility spells which has some duration or healing spells. in damaging spell aspect, It means you can prevent losing your caster level when you multiclassing. that's it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Yes you could mc casters with full CL. At worst it doesn't change anything. .at best you've created noob traps. Even at CL20, fireball will not carry you through epic without higher level spells like meteor swarm. Having lots of mediocre spells but no good ones doesn't help.
    I disagree. My 1st life sorc can hit with fireball sla for almost 10k dmg on crit (with crit chance above 70%). If you want decent r10 endgame dps - sure, you'll need higher lvl spells. But with spamming low lvl spells and slas from sorc tree you can easly solo lvl 30+ quests on ee/r1 (in fact thats why i made this sorc - easy aoe item farmer) and provide decent dps for majority of endgame raids (since pugs usually don't run r+ raids). The only reason why i do use meteor swarm is no save dmg (since archers in sharn have crazy saves). I can easly imagine lvl 15 cler/fvs healbot with dps almost equal to pure sorce (the only thing you lose will be 2 max caster lvl & 30 spell power from cores).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gniewomir View Post
    I disagree. My 1st life sorc can hit with fireball sla for almost 10k dmg on crit (with crit chance above 70%). If you want decent r10 endgame dps - sure, you'll need higher lvl spells. But with spamming low lvl spells and slas from sorc tree you can easly solo lvl 30+ quests on ee/r1 (in fact thats why i made this sorc - easy aoe item farmer) and provide decent dps for majority of endgame raids (since pugs usually don't run r+ raids). The only reason why i do use meteor swarm is no save dmg (since archers in sharn have crazy saves). I can easly imagine lvl 15 cler/fvs healbot with dps almost equal to pure sorce (the only thing you lose will be 2 max caster lvl & 30 spell power from cores).
    I thought It would only work until epic levelling or 30+ R1s, but It sounds that's competitive enough. Interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    I thought It would only work until epic levelling or 30+ R1s, but It sounds that's competitive enough. Interesting.
    Competitive in a bad way i would say, cause if build is not based on high lvl spells only, then the benefits of such system could make pure casters worse than multiclassing. In current system you always sacrifice one thing for another, in the one like you suggested - like i said, lvl 15 healbot might be able to provide dps almost as good as pure sorc and i do not think it's good. Ofc it's only my assumption/guess, i can be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Which brings up these questions to the Devs:

    "Why don't Epic Levels increase Caster Levels?"
    "Why do we still have Caster Levels tied to Epic Destinies?"
    "Why do Epic Destinies immediately grant +5 Caster Levels at level 20 then nothing after level 20?"
    "Why do Epic Destinies limit which classes they grant Caster Levels to?"
    "If you are considering raising the level cap again, will you please revamp how Epic Destinies handle Caster Levels?"
    Exactly - this frustrates me to no end - why dont epics increase caster levels? All of these are great points - thank you

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    Post Why not introduce the Practiced Spellcaster feat instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Targal View Post
    Class CL means it only goes to a class.
    For example,
    If 20 Cleric gets 20 Class CL, It means you have 20 Caster Level for Cleric only, not 20 Character Caster Level to every spell. (which is the current version)
    If 20 Cleric gets 20 Shared CL, It means you have 20 Character Caster Level for every spell.

    Full casters get Shared CL at every leveling and their caster level is shared across the whole casting classes.
    I have a question - as a cleric how do you gain divine caster levels from your wizard levels?
    Arcane magic and Divine magic are not the same!

    If your goal is to increase the caster levels of your multiclass characters there are other, more lore-friendly ways to do it.
    In the Complete Arcane and Complete Divine supplements (3.5) there is a feat called Practiced Spellcaster.

    The prerequisite of the feat is:
    - the ability to cast arcane or divine spells
    - 4 ranks of Spellcraft

    When taken it will increase the caster level for the chosen class by +4.
    This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD.

    For example:
    If a 5th-level cleric / 3-rd level fighter takes the feat, he will cast cleric spells as a 8th-level caster (5 from cleric and +3 from the feat).
    When the character levels up as a fighter its cleric caster level becomes 9 (5 from cleric and +4 from the feat).

    Special:
    You can take the feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

    For example:
    If a 4th-level cleric / 5th-level wizard takes the feat twice, he will cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

    I would argue that this is a better way to do it:
    It satisfies your goal of increasing the caster levels and the extra power is not free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Mary View Post
    Exactly - this frustrates me to no end - why dont epics increase caster levels? All of these are great points - thank you
    I hope they at least make ED caster levels class agnostic, if an artificer wants to run in exalted angel they should get caster levels for it. that is if they don't move them fully or in part to epic levels.

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    Closest thing that I can think of to somewhat resemble what the OP is talking about was ToEE, the pc-game (not the module here in ddo.)

    It had something where you could slot spells at a given level.
    Not sure about the split class levels.
    Kinda making it possible to do a highten without highten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    I have a question - as a cleric how do you gain divine caster levels from your wizard levels?
    Arcane magic and Divine magic are not the same!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Crawford
    All magic relies on the Weave. Take a look at "The Weave of Magic" in the Player's Handbook (p. 205) for more information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Perkins
    All magic in FR relies on the Weave. Without it, arcane and divine spellcasters are like boats out of water.
    * Refs from https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11...-on-the-weave/
    * Jeremy Crawford is a game designer who has worked primarily on role-playing games. He is most widely known for being the Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast.
    * Christopher Perkins is a Canadian American game designer and editor who is known for his work on Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game.

    I checked if they're fakes, and it seems confirmable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    If your goal is to increase the caster levels of your multiclass characters there are other, more lore-friendly ways to do it.
    In the Complete Arcane and Complete Divine supplements (3.5) there is a feat called Practiced Spellcaster.

    The prerequisite of the feat is:
    - the ability to cast arcane or divine spells
    - 4 ranks of Spellcraft

    When taken it will increase the caster level for the chosen class by +4.
    This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD.

    For example:
    If a 5th-level cleric / 3-rd level fighter takes the feat, he will cast cleric spells as a 8th-level caster (5 from cleric and +3 from the feat).
    When the character levels up as a fighter its cleric caster level becomes 9 (5 from cleric and +4 from the feat).

    Special:
    You can take the feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class.

    For example:
    If a 4th-level cleric / 5th-level wizard takes the feat twice, he will cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

    I would argue that this is a better way to do it:
    It satisfies your goal of increasing the caster levels and the extra power is not free.
    In DDO, this feat will be seriously questionable in the balance issue.
    Since we have a bunch of HD by Epic levels while we don't get caster levels by them, Picking up the feat twice as a pure caster means you can take extra +4 and +4 Caster levels to Spell Penetration without Heroic Spell Penetration(+2), but also +4 and +4 CL to some no ML damaging spells. (ex. Dragonic ED Spells 30 Character Level + 6 by ED cores + 3 by ED enhances + 6 by Sorcerer Cores + 4 and 4 by the feat -> 53 CL)
    Of course, SSG can change as we don't get caster levels by Epic level HD, but, then I believe it will be useless. In my idea, There isn't much usefulness to a single caster level by +4 only, and DDO has more feats better than it. (although having such feat can be fun to combine with something.)

    Extra free power concept from the idea is kinda originated from 5e concept, although I can understand the suggested idea is something too free in people's opinion, but I don't think It's too free. I believe It's just a kinda compensation for caster+caster multiclassing.
    Last edited by Targal; 01-27-2021 at 10:22 PM.
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