New players vs Vets

[Coffey]

If they move forward with this perhaps it can be implemented with the group leader turning on an aura. Something like Aura of Awesome Superior Experience Sharing, with a bright coppery glow. That way our vastly superior uber completionists can be properly recognized.

They should be able to fly too like Wings Over DDO world!

[droid327]

I have to agree that reaper shouldn't be the default game mode in DDO, however it is, whether we like it or not nowadays. As such, it should be balanced around that. And i think that granting party members a percentage of the bonuses from the highest "Reaper Rank" person in the party would help significantly in that regard, letting less powerful people who put in the effort to learn the higher R quests a chance to do something other than pike. Because, they will go into that reaper, prepared or not, and if I have the option to run with players who are 100% soulstones, or someone who can help somewhat, I would prefer the latter, and when I get with a group doing higher R content than I normally do, I would prefer to actually play the game instead of being literally carried.

You're a little late to the party mate, Reaper's been the standard quest setting for quite a while now lol. At first it was for the 45% base XP, now it's also because all the people who ran it for 45% base XP have a bunch of reaper points.

It's not a "challenge only mode" if the rewards are greater lol. It's been debated since the release of Reaper, but as long as the Reaper Enhancement Trees give so much power and Reaper gives more XP (alongside more loot and possible Reaper bonuses on said loot) there's no chance of it being only there for the challenge.

Since it's the default quest setting, it seems reasonable to try to get new players to be able to run Reaper

Reaper should not be the default mode for the game. Full stop.

Pragmatically, yes it is right now. But that doesnt mean you double down by further incentivizing Reaper and balancing around it...that only serves to make an existing problem even worse and more entrenched. You try to wean people off Reaper by removing the erroneous incentivization for Reaper right now and try to get back to the proper balance point.

Remember there was a reason Reaper was created in the first place, and if we allow it to just creep back to what Elite used to be, then we're just going to find ourselves facing that same problem again.

My answer is - OK, where are the new players?
crickets....

Umm there are lots of new players. I see new people posting all the time for newbie advice here and on other sites.

You often post your disdain for everything about DDO. That's just a "you thing" though. I dont think most people go and play a new game and expect to never be asked to pay any money ever, or get offended if they are and immediately quit. They just go play a different quest that's free. You can get to L10 or so in F2P quests without ever breaking stride. By that point you're not on the fence anymore about the game, you're either in or you're out.

There is no "paywall" in DDO, its one of the most liberal F2P models there is.

[Stravix]

Reaper should not be the default mode for the game. Full stop.

Pragmatically, yes it is right now. But that doesnt mean you double down by further incentivizing Reaper and balancing around it...that only serves to make an existing problem even worse and more entrenched. You try to wean people off Reaper by removing the erroneous incentivization for Reaper right now and try to get back to the proper balance point.

Remember there was a reason Reaper was created in the first place, and if we allow it to just creep back to what Elite used to be, then we're just going to find ourselves facing that same problem again.



Umm there are lots of new players. I see new people posting all the time for newbie advice here and on other sites.

You often post your disdain for everything about DDO. That's just a "you thing" though. I dont think most people go and play a new game and expect to never be asked to pay any money ever, or get offended if they are and immediately quit. They just go play a different quest that's free. You can get to L10 or so in F2P quests without ever breaking stride. By that point you're not on the fence anymore about the game, you're either in or you're out.

There is no "paywall" in DDO, its one of the most liberal F2P models there is.

You can't put the cat back into the bag for this kinda thing though. It just won't work. Reaper is here to stay as the defacto baseline, whether you like it or not, so the game should be balanced around what is that defacto baseline.

[Retired_Old_Gamer]

You can't put the cat back into the bag for this kinda thing though. It just won't work. Reaper is here to stay as the defacto baseline, whether you like it or not, so the game should be balanced around what is that defacto baseline.

Many reasons IMHO that reaper is a fail. #1 and foremost, a difficulty setting does NOT need an enhancement system.

Do we have an elite enhancement tree? NO, No we don't.

Reaper in it's current form is a joke and complete fail.

[Stravix]

Many reasons IMHO that reaper is a fail. #1 and foremost, a difficulty setting does NOT need an enhancement system.

Do we have an elite enhancement tree? NO, No we don't.

Reaper in it's current form is a joke and complete fail.

I agree, but can you imagine the reaction if you just removed it? The economic implications for the company would be massive. So, you need to embrace it (reaper) as the new baseline, as your community has, and if you do something like it again in the future, make sure not to fall into the same trappings as before.

[Coffey]

You can get to L10 or so in F2P quests without ever breaking stride. By that point you're not on the fence anymore about the game, you're either in or you're out.

There is no "paywall" in DDO, its one of the most liberal F2P models there is.

I think most new players are out after this point because you need to buy the expansions to hit the ground running to get top gear so you can keep up with other people in Reaper. Its a big buy in for an older game and things are changing fast economically everywhere.

I hope a solution is found and this discussion will hopefully help find one.

[Varr]

I've been waiting a long time for a thread like this, YES!!!

So glad to be on the Vet's team. We are going to kick the **** out of the new players team. They are so soft and don't know all the sweet moves!!!!

Vets Vets Vets

New Players vs Vets.......you're going down New Players!!!

[fatherpirate]

I agree, but can you imagine the reaction if you just removed it? The economic implications for the company would be massive. So, you need to embrace it (reaper) as the new baseline, as your community has, and if you do something like it again in the future, make sure not to fall into the same trappings as before.

Nope, not embracing it.
I want it gone.

[optimus]

If they move forward with this perhaps it can be implemented with the group leader turning on an aura. Something like Aura of Awesome Superior Experience Sharing, with a bright coppery glow. That way our vastly superior uber completionists can be properly recognized.

I can appreciate the sarcastic humor, but recognition is part of human makeup. It is important in many aspects of life but even in just the context of this game lets consider:

Reaper rewards (pets, reaper eyes, reaper wings) are recognition for achievement.
Hardcore awarded cosmetics are recognition for achievement.
There is a hardcore leaderboard published which is not only achievement but extends into competition.
Quest completion reports are recognition for party members contributions to Conquest, Ransack, Trap Bonuses, etc.
The wings on a TR character floaty name and slightly taller avatar are recognitions for achievement.

The list goes on and on. We kid ourselves to try and say this does not matter. I am simply embracing it and am not afraid to say it out loud.

[SirValentine]

You can't put the cat back into the bag for this kinda thing though. It just won't work. Reaper is here to stay as the defacto baseline, whether you like it or not...

I really don't expect the devs to show the understanding of the need (or they would have avoided this in the first place), or massive courage it would take, so I do expect that it will remain the de facto baseline.

However, it's simply not true that you "can't". They could, if they had the guts.

Nope, not embracing it.
I want it gone.

I don't want it gone. I just want it to be the challenge difficulty we were promised that we still don't have. Almost everyone's default speed leveling difficulty is not a challenge difficulty. Even R10 gets routinely speed-run by many players.

[droid327]

You can't put the cat back into the bag for this kinda thing though. It just won't work. Reaper is here to stay as the defacto baseline, whether you like it or not, so the game should be balanced around what is that defacto baseline.

You can absolutely still walk it back. Very simply. Remove the extra XP over Elite, and make all the Reaper bonuses, even the core HP, only apply while in Reaper. Easy as that, and suddenly there's no real incentive to run Reaper except that you want the challenge.

The toothpaste is still in the tube.

So, you need to embrace it (reaper) as the new baseline

No I don't need to, nor do I. Reaper was never intended to be general-play, and the game is better off if we put it back in its intended niche of group challenge content.

[fatherpirate]

Side note

Someone brought up HCL awards as like Reaper awards.

I want to clarify that HCL award do not effect the balance of the game, they are almost all cosmetic.
With exception to the mount and that has no effect of dungeons or combat.

Reaper awards effect game balance .

[Saekee]

It takes time and effort to achieve the benefits from all those reincarnations and reaper points. If a person who has done none of the work can gain the same benefits, there is no incentive to achieve those things. Those long term gains are what holds my attention in this game after all these years of playing. Without incentive, I LOSE my interest in the game. The game LOSES a long term player and financial supporter.

hey, did not read all the posts in this thread, but Optimus you have done an admirable job communicating and articulating your stance. I am not sure how many others have similar feelings. How about a poll?

I have seen many vets intentionally hosting new players in groups. In our guild, it is a regular effort. It is also not just new players--it is veteran players on some new toon they wanted to develop for whatever reason. So for those selfless mentors who like to cultivate a group and think in terms of how a group evolves and works together, then this is a boon.

I think the easiest implementation to make everyone happy is to let the person with the star decide whether or not they share their power and leadership. I would also give them some kind of bonus if they choose to do so, like +2 chest loot and named item treasure hunter boost of some kind. Yes, even if it is dual/quadboxing, I do not mind this perk.

I have some favor toons on different servers that I have parked at level 4 and often some kind player in a level 200 guild lets me grab the ship buffs. We all know the work and costs to make this guilds and ships hit level 200--so that is an example of how players help others selflessly.

[minorpenthes]

I would suggest then that "New Players" should not be jumping into multi-skull reaper groups since that is not what high reaper was designed for. High reaper was designed to challenge those who are looking for greater difficulty.
As I mention in my OP, this change DOES hurt me by removing the meaning of my hard work.
Having an opinion on something does not mean I am throwing a tantrum. I believe I am presenting my view in a very calm, and controlled manner.

You are probably right. Especially the high skull reaper runs are not really designed for beginners.

BUT (and you probably knew something else was coming):

A) New players are, as the name implies, "new". Learning all the jargon and shorthand slang can be a bit of a challenge, particularly with younger players, and those for whom English is not a first language.

B) There is also the matter of understanding and accurately judging some of the scaling. Sometimes the leap from elite to reaper is a steep progression, and sometimes not as much. In addition, if they have only grouped with very patient, understanding people who are trying to nurture new players (so that the game does not become a slowly shrinking pool of curmudgeonly munchkins, slowly approaching extinction) then inadvertently joining a group of "leet" players may be an unintentional (and probably unpleasant) experience, for ALL parties.

C) This is a bit of a subset of the previous point: Sometimes there are so few options, that out of sheer boredom and desperation, people join a group that they are probably not qualified for. Maybe the quest is one that requires multiple players to complete; maybe they are trying to get TP, and the grind of running n/h/e is wearing thin; maybe they are looking for additional mentoring, and hoping to learn tips and tricks; maybe (blasphemy!) they are simply sociable, and hope to run with other people, for a change.


I can understand your point: You have worked hard for what you have, and invested time, effort and money to arrive at your rarefied elevation.

I actually get that, and although I am mocking you, somewhat, your point is not without merit.

But if you have been playing as long as you have, and seem to have such an aversion to having to mix with lesser players, why do you not either play with a static group, or join a guild of likeminded players (there is usually at least one on every server)? Don't you have any people on your friends list?

Why, for God's sake, don't you just make your LFMs EXPLICITLY clear that you ONLY wish to have elite players joining your groups, and by the same token, not join any groups that say something like "All Welcome!"? Sure, many players feel an aversion to LFMs that are marketed to elitists- but many other players would probably be more than happy to join with you and not have to worry about new players disturbing their pursuit of the perfect zerg.

Really, why don't you just be more blatantly exclusionary and selective? You may not come across as an open, friendly, and inclusive person, BUT you probably experience less stress... And inflict less stress upon others.

This reply is somewhat facetious, because honestly, the tone of your complaint does strike me as wee bit supercilious- but on the other hand, you have every right to enjoy this game, and it confuses me somewhat why you would not simply make your borders and limits more explicit.

If I do not want people smoking around me, I do not go to bars where I know that people will be smoking. If I don't like children, I decline invitations to children's birthday parties. If I wish to avoid people of a different political/religious persuasion, I avoid rallies and religious services, et cetera, et cetera. In other words, I try to avoid situations where I will be exposed to people and behaviours that I find incompatible and/or stressful.

You might adopt a similar policy and be more satisfied with your groups.

[SirValentine]

Why, for God's sake, don't you just make your LFMs EXPLICITLY clear that you ONLY wish to have elite players joining your groups

That's smart.

and by the same token, not join any groups that say something like "All Welcome!"?

That, on the other hand, is not smart. Why shouldn't anyone join a group when they are being explicitly told that they are welcome?

[SpartanKiller13]

That, on the other hand, is not smart. Why shouldn't anyone join a group when they are being explicitly told that they are welcome?

What, you party with peasants? Inexcusable, get out!
/s

[myliftkk_v2]

If I have a history of past spending, that is indicative of future spending so yes, spending trendlines matter.

Not as much as you communicate. You're a grape already being juiced. I'll trade you for two grapes I haven't juiced yet any day of the week, because at the end of the day your supply of juice is finite and it's cheaper for me to juice new grapes with the same equipment I already have in hand rather than build new equipment to get your last barrel of oil (another economic concept that is applicable here). One needs to realize the golden goose is a myth. Ain't no such thing as an endless supply of eggs.

The try before you buy can be achieved without exposure to the top level or highest difficulty content.

No one who isn't afraid of their status being compromised remotely thinks that is going to be the final outcome, even given SSG's poor track record. You're extrapolating an excessive fear that is common in heavy consumers that has no basis in reality.

Since we are taking the liberty of speaking from the producers point of view here; From the producers point of view I am exactly the kind of person they should listen to since I contribute highly and consistently to the revenue of this game. To act on the complaints of players who pass through in a short amount of time and are reluctant to invest time and money into their characters will be the failure.

They're not acting on complaints so much as trying to reverse the growth trendline which points towards death. If it isn't growing, they are dying. These are changes to affect meta trends not "rewards" for people your opinion casts as beneath you. That opinion reflects no producer's anywhere, we can swap product domains in and out at will.

i am hooked on he game because of the incentive I keep mentioning. If that incentive is removed then the hook is removed. This is what SSG needs to be aware of.

Obviously we have very different views on this but thank you for a clear breakdown of your thoughts.

The worst mistake SSG could make is to assume big fish live forever. The job is to manage them by trapping them in cycle of too invested to leave, but only fed enough to keep going while hunting growth. That self-regard that your toon sees when looking in the quest mirror is what traps you (aka Butch said it best when punching Marcellus Wallace).

The difference is between a consumer centric viewpoint, and a producer centric one.

[myliftkk_v2]

party with peasants

This should definitely be a guild if it isn't one already.

[myliftkk_v2]

[B]I think the easiest implementation to make everyone happy is to let the person with the star decide whether or not they share their power and leadership. I would also give them some kind of bonus if they choose to do so, like +2 chest loot and named item treasure hunter boost of some kind. Yes, even if it is dual/quadboxing, I do not mind this perk.

I'd be happy with a Share the Glory toggle.

Lol, no way this makes the OP happy because their complaint is largely based on the fact that someone somewhere might get something they didn't "earn" and that knowledge will ruin the game for them.

[minorpenthes]

That's smart.



That, on the other hand, is not smart. Why shouldn't anyone join a group when they are being explicitly told that they are welcome?

Well, since the OP seems to object to having less powerful and experienced players in a more challenging quest/raid, one that is explicitly welcoming to all might place him in a group with people he thinks do not belong there, thus engendering bad feelings all around.

If your thinking does not follow that pattern it may not be intuitively obvious, but if you are "leet", then it probably makes perfect sense.