New players vs Vets

[DerpDerply]

There’s one huge, King Kong-sized gorilla in the room that hasn’t been addressed yet: Exactly how much more soul-crushing lag is this going to add to the mountainous pile that we’re already dealing with? Because if it’s anything like the front-loading bs we're dealing with in reaper, then no thank you.

[Matuse]

The sidekicking feature in City Of Heroes was great. It let people who played more continue to group with people who played less by closing the power gap. This plan is exactly the same.

What are the complaints about grouping that have popped up over the last 10 years since reincarnation was added?

- Fewer people to group with.
- Endless treadmill to catch up to vets which frustrated new players and made them quit.
- People in groups not pulling their weight because they didn't have enough RXP or PLs.
- Level spread making it hard to be with friends unless you all played at the same time....always.
- Lack of long-term endgame because somebody was always back at level 1.

This fixes nearly all of that. But in true form, there's genuinely nothing that SSG can do that somebody won't find a reason to whine about it. This particular thread is even more egregious than most, making empty claims about how other people being able to do more than pike in a group is somehow damaging to their monumental ego. Fortunately, you won't have to worry about it very long. An attitude like yours cannot help but seep into your behavior and conversations when grouping. Nobody will want to do it twice. They'll stop infecting your uberness with their inferiority just because they won't be able to stand being near you.

[apocaladle]

Any of you (including SSG) think that this will draw more new players, AND keep them, then you're dreaming.

As Enoch pointed out, it very well could lead to players "shopping" for the biggest buffed party leader. Not sure how serious this would be, but it is probable.

It's a BAD idea from jump street.

Is it really that much different than shopping for a level 200 guild with all the buffs?

Also a similar system called the mentoring system in an old shut down mmo called zero online actually worked pretty well. But it wasnt group to group it was just a way to attach players to each other where the mentor would get free exp equal to a small percentage that the apprentice collected and the apprentice would get a percentage of the higher players power as well as someone to ask questions about the game. You could even be both roles if you were a mid range player where you would have a new player as your apprentice to mentor and have a high level player as your mentor. (There was a min level difference to make it work)

[Baahb3]

This particular thread is even more egregious than most, making empty claims about how other people being able to do more than pike in a group is somehow damaging to their monumental ego.

Little harsh to the OP. I don't read it that way at all, all he is asking is that people earn the ability to play at higher difficulties, rather than be given that ability by leaching off of others.

Vets can help new players so much more by letting them grow into their character, sharing knowledge of quests, builds and abilities instead of 'here is a bunch of HPs and MP, now hopefully you can keep up with me'. Play with them at a difficulty that they can play at, where they CAN contribute, rather than asking them to contribute in a difficulty they are not ready for yet. Yes, the Vet may not get as much benefit out of it, but they don't need it if they already have that much power.

[Retired_Old_Gamer]

Is it really that much different than shopping for a level 200 guild with all the buffs?

Also a similar system called the mentoring system in an old shut down mmo called zero online actually worked pretty well. But it wasnt group to group it was just a way to attach players to each other where the mentor would get free exp equal to a small percentage that the apprentice collected and the apprentice would get a percentage of the higher players power as well as someone to ask questions about the game. You could even be both roles if you were a mid range player where you would have a new player as your apprentice to mentor and have a high level player as your mentor. (There was a min level difference to make it work)

The Mentor aspect is ideal, but how to pull that off with this game isn't very realistic, sadly.

Many yarns ago, Impaqt & I created "The Adepts" on Thelanis. A true mentoring program, run by just a few of us.

IIR, the 1st core group bonded so well, they took over and showed us the door!

If WE as a community are as concerned about new players and such, then maybe you should spend time w/ new players. Sure a few people might reply they do already, and that's awesome, (I do, & did over the weekend on G-Land) but it's not a game-wide instance.

NOPE, the conversation of new/old, new player retention has NEVER happened. Maybe it's time that dialogue took place.

[Baahb3]

The Mentor aspect is ideal, but how to pull that off with this game isn't very realistic, sadly.

A Mentor program would be much better IMO. Let us submit a character to be a mentor and then let new players ask for one if they want. I would sign up for this. Heck even if we somehow got the /advice channel to be a little more active, this would help a lot.

[Xgya]

Instead of a "power level", since MOST of the power a toon can get is from either gear or player skill, just give some kind of label for an account's age.

Sure, it might let the filter get to some folk with older accounts coming back after a decade-long hiatus, but it also displays apparent power a LOT more easily.
How long you've farmed gear and how many quests you've done in TOTAL, on all your toons, will show a lot more of just how powerful of a character you can make than stating the amount of PLs or Reaper points you might or might not have.

If you built an 11-reaper-point first-life character using up-to-date gear and your vast array of gameplay knowledge you could and would perform a LOT better than a newb's first character that somehow managed to get carried through 3 epic PLs and painstakingly reach 20 reaper points.
Give that same newb your equipment set by helping them farm for it, and you're still far from making them use it efficiently.

Any system that calculates power levels would have to be account-based at the very least.

I'm firmly against any system that further divides the community by separating them into neat categories.

If you really need to display something about your own achievements in-game, I'd rather SSG introduce an actual achievement system. "Own 200 different pieces of unique gear" "Get dealt 10K damage in a single hit and live for a full minute after the fact" "Reincarnate twice" "Change your /resloc" "Stay in a guild for over 3 months" "Group up with the same people for 20 quests"
Now you can have and hunt for achievement points, and even have leaderboards. E-peen achieved.

[SpartanKiller13]

But is it not better in this example to run with your friend on hard, letting them build into Elite and Reaper, seeing what it takes, rather than boosting his power artificially just so they get get power more quickly, before they are ready to handle that power?

Its like teaching someone to drive with a Bugatti, rather than a Honda. Makes no sense to me.

Considering loot, favor, and XP (let alone RXP) are acquired at a monumentally faster rate running E/R compared to Hard, not really? Also most toons that can solo Hard are pretty well able to contribute on E/low R even if they can't solo them.

While there's a lot of value in player knowledge, there's also a lot of power in gearing, a few PL's, and a bit of RXP. Someone who knows almost nothing about DDO with 6 Reaper Points will be ahead of that same person without those points. A full set of Ravenloft gear will probably make a level 30 toon stronger than another hundred hours of questing in full randomgen - even if both are useful.

I think I'd agree more with your point if E+ scaled linearly from N/H; the problem is that it simply doesn't. Pack size, champs, reapers, Reaper buff/debuffs, party scaling, player tactics/strategies etc all change a lot as you increase difficulty. Toons that can solo Hard can usually do so by running straight at any enemy and hitting it; this practice typically doesn't hold up in higher difficulties, and it's extremely hard to teach good tactics etc without being able to see why they're valuable.

Also, consider yourself. When you were new to R3, if you joined a party of strong players who were running R8's would you want them to drop down to R3? Or would you want to join them in their R8's and play a bit more cautiously while looking to pick up some knowledge? Personally I'd prefer to hit somewhere in the middle (like R5-6 in that example) but I'd not want to run R3's there lol. Whenever I run with the legends on my server I always want to learn; and that's a lot easier in the meat grinder vs if they're paving a road for me.

Teaching someone to drive a bus won't help them much at the demolition derby, even if it teaches you a lot of useful driving skills

[apocaladle]

You are correct, IT IS about perceived VALUE.
you say this in a negative way but I completely own this view for myself.

If a thing is easy to get, it has very little value.
When things are scarce whether it is due to rarity or hard work, they have greater value. That applies in game (rare items), and it applies in real life (such as a Bugati).
If everyone has it then the value diminishes.
What we are dealing with is a situation where new players feel entitled to the same values a vet has without working for it.

But if this change goes through then your value would go up as you would be one of the most valueable party leads as you have all the stuff.

Supply vs demand.

Currently completionist is valueable to the owner and not really anyone else, with this change it would make players like you highly saught after for running groups. Currently you cant market you value very well as all you can bring to a raid is 1 strong player, any old bard brings more power to a raid than just 1 completionist, but with the change then you bring way more power to a raid than a plain old bard ever could.

Currently you bring ~150 past lives to the table, if you can share half your lives with each member of a raid group you are then bringing almost 1000 past lives which in my opinion is VERY valuable.

Its less new players freely given power and more you getting the ability to give INSANE party buffs ontop of your normal power.

[Bunker]

What's more to the point is this whole "power sharing" concept seems to me to be more an incentive and power-up for those vets that roll multiple accounts, multi-boxing their way to faster, easier named loot. But whatever.

Excuse the term. I'm sure you aren't a hater at heart. But dont hate on vets.

Just know this. Whatever the change, no matter who it appears to cater to, the vets will twist it in their favor no matter what. It is what vets do. I wouldn't worry about it benefiting them. Whatever the change is, the vets will find a way to exploit(the legal exploit) it in their favor. That's what makes them them.

[J-2]

I get that they want to encourage grouping.
The problem is the glut of ******** in the game.
They want quick satisfaction, and don't care who they step on for it.
Most of them don't play well in a group either.

Would rather see deeds rewarded.

[kanordog]

Point system

According to your point system I should not run with vets on my wife's account using 28 pts first lifers to farm store points.

Well, I can keep up even though I look like a new player. Or should I link my birthday battlebox each time I want to join a r1 run?

[myliftkk_v2]

The minute one decides it's new players 'vs' vets, the discussion has been corrupted.

One should not confuse the concept of spending time engaged in a hobby, which is what playing DDO is. To the extent any vet claims to have acquired anything more than enjoyment in said hobby, they are making illegitimate claims that are not supported by said hobby or SSG. Their value system of "I earned that" that they attempt to foist on the discussion does not have any applicability here. Whether a hobby survives or dies depends in large part, on the number of participants willing to engage in it and thus perpetuate it. Since many of us vets have said, 'see ya' to the hobby for increasingly to near permanent lengths of time do due a degradation in the enjoyment ROI, it does pressure the hobby creator or companies directly involved to increase adoption by new participants. This is neither an unusual or new concept.

Frankly newly engaged players are more valuable than aging vets in any hobby. Given the current stack of hobby accoutrements that can be sold or monetized for the new player without requiring any new production, the vet is easily a declining ROI investment for those whose livelihood are tied to the hobby. If a vet finds themselves discombobulated due to the necessary transition of a hobby to better accommodate new players, they should first get their head right with reality of a hobby's actual market needs rather than retreat into a NIMBY/Get Off My Lawn position broadcasting a pretty clear gap of understanding in how hobbies survive over time.

Or we can just keep collecting stamps and see where that lands us.

I'm generally in favor of most conceptual solutions that decrease lag and improve the quantity of fellow players to quest with. I am not in favor of relying on abstractions which do not apply here, nor implementations that try to enshrine other player's wrongly internalized value systems on top of DDO where they absolutely do not belong.

[As_The_Bat]

I can see both sides of this thread.
On one side there´s a vet that says that his hard work is diminished by powering up new players in his party.
On the other side there are those that dont care about it and think it will favor grouping new players with vets.

Let me ask you guys.
Do you really think the server population goes down because of the power gap between vets and new players?
Could it be that the server population goes down because new players dont like to play with all the server problems we have? (lag for example)

One thing I´m sure of is that i log in I find the BEST comunity to play with.
Are there exceptions? yes of course, some ppl are way best alone than join them, but thats not the rule, thats the exception.
In all these years playing I´ve been helped with quests, gear, information, how to guides, and I cant say how many things more.
How many of you have joined lfms only to help a guy farm tokens?
Ive done it. And also a lot of ppl joined mine to help me with them too at one point or another.
And this is the simplest of examples!

But I can´t believe that the same comunity that plays with me is the same here in the forums.
A lot of agression between posters.
If I dont agree I say just that "sorry I dont agree".

I dont agree with some of the things OP said.
But I also dont agree with many of the answers.

And one thing that its also true.
This game requires work.
If you want your toon to be able to do certain things you will have to work for it.
Ive done it, most of you have done it.
In fact Im still doing it.
And you know what?
Always found a group that would take me in even when said group KNEW I would not be of much help.
And they helped me.
And my toon got better.
And now Im a little helper in those quests, even if Im not as good as them.
Im sure one of the things why they always take me is that they see the effort I do even if is not as powerfull as them.

The fact that a quest is discouraging for new players is a problem of the vets or a design problem? (one thing IMO I find a lot)
Reaper is tough, we all know it.
The higher the harder it gets.

But if a guy posts a reaper 10 quest lfm and I join I KNOW it will be a painfull experience for me.
If I join that lfm I KNOW it will be discouraging.
Because its designed to be really really tough.

Is it a vet problem that the quest is too tough for new players?
The vet put it in the lfm clearly R10.
You join him you know what to expect.

I really dont think the problem in the server population is because of the vet / new players power gap.
I´ve never felt the power gap was a problem.

But I do think that making your toon better is a job of EACH player, not the rest.
And with this I dont mean leave the new players on their own.
I mean that each one of them should make the effort as each one of the vets did.

And thats it.
Hope my english is clear enough to express what I think, please be patient, not a born english speaker.
Wish you all well, see you in game

[Telekinesis]

I am a new player been playing for close to 6 months now and have gotten a few past lives and 55 reaper points on my main toon. I also have a few alts im messing with. What amazes me when reading the comments in these posts is people assume that new players dont like running with vets. In my case I love it. No endless wiipes, content gets done quickly, they know what to do and can teach. It seems the community is full of old stale players that like to voice what they want and what's good for them only , in the pretence of helping new players. Its really hypocritical in my opinion. I run r10s with my guild most days and love it. As for group power share , it would be awesome. But what terrible builds are you running to be totally useless in elite or r1 to not be able to contribute at all, like seriously.

[fatherpirate]

What are 'new players' ?

[Coffey]

I like playing this game but life is too short to work for anything in a videogame IMO.

SSG has added the HCL server for players like me that just want to play.

I dont like running PLs, farming, inventory management or being carried.

My main char is parked at 30 indefinitely.

To each their own

[Nebless]

I have to question the basic premise the OP started with: "some new players feel intimidated by powerful veterans".

OK, he said 'some' so I guess that's fine, but how big is this mythical some? Because frankly I don't give a rat's behind that your character is a 'triple class, triple Iconic, triple racial, triple epic completionist, with 88 reaper points. Nor do I care what you can and I can't run.

Is there a power gap between vet's and new players? Well duh! If you played a month more than I have there'd be a power gap, so what? Find me any game where new players are at the same level as vet's.

While it might be nice to let new players have a taste of higher level / harder content via a mentor system or something, I wouldn't reward them with xp or reaper points for doing it. That would just be a different version of power leveling.

[Mithrielwielder]

I normally oppose elitism in MMOs but in this case as a new covid player (began in March 2020) I agree with the OP. Unlike some MMOs, this game really excels at allowing players to play at all levels, not just at high end. The kind of player that would be attracted to instant gratification of being handed multiple past lives and reaper points for free is not the type of person that is going to stay with the game. As a new player (coming up on one year), I don't mind the power gap between a one year player and a 13 year player, provided the devs don't hand free stuff to these uber characters (like content that is only accessible to them, but that ultimately makes the power gap wider). If the people that joined with me knew about the extent of the power gap, they would probably quit in outrage, so I keep it secret from them. We play the content at our level and its fun. There is plenty of room to challenge ourselves. I knew when I decided to join a 13 year old game that I would never reach end game status. If I wanted that, I would join a newly launched game, not an old game.

[Mithrielwielder]

And one more thing . . .

To vet players, please consider not using to many acronyms in your posts. It makes it hard for new players to follow what you are saying. We are all trying to better our characters and it doesn't help if your posts are understandable only by a certain portion of the players base.