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  1. #1
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    Default New players vs Vets

    I usually never post but after watching Severlin's interview I have a few concerns.
    In order to address an issue of large power gaps between players, he mentions that there is consideration to build in functionality where the power of the party leader can spill over or enhance the party members by "power sharing" in order to help weaker characters run content with stronger characters.

    I couldn't disagree with this approach more. As a veteran who has been playing DDO since 2007 and paying subscription fees (yes I feel this is important to distinguish) I have spent an enormous amount of time, effort, and money to power up my characters. Now we are saying that a brand new player to the game should be able to do what I can do by simply being in party with me?
    What entitles a new character who has put in none of the work or effort to expect to do what a more seasoned character can do?

    A new character SHOULD NOT be able to do what my triple class completionist, triple Iconic completionist, triple racial completionist, triple epic completionist, with 88 reaper points can do. For them to be able to do that completely robs me of all my hard work. It is absurd that they even EXPECT to do that.

    I do understand that some new players feel intimidated by powerful veterans so this should be addressed, but not by taking away the meaning of all the hard work veterans have put into their characters. There are other ways. Here are a few suggestions to get the though process going.

    1. Create a "Power Tier" concept.
    For example, lets say a character earns 1 power point for each reincarnation and each reaper point.
    Class completionist = 15 points. Triple completionist = 45 points.
    Triople Epic completionist = 36 points
    Triple racial completionist = 36 points
    Triple Iconic completionist = 24 points
    Each Reaper point = 1 point

    So the character I mentioned above would have 229 power points. I think it should be clear why this character would be a lot more powerful than a newer character with maybe only 3 reincarnations and thus 3 power points.

    Now you can take the Power points a character has and put it somewhere visible to other players (perhaps behind the floaty character name). This serves several purposes.
    It gives veterans a way to show off their accomplishments. No matter how humble people try to pretend to be, you can tell this is important to many people just by listening to them brag about their accomplishments in groups.
    Second, it gives people a way to include or exclude certain power levels in their groups.

    A party can post for "No higher than 20 power points plz" or "no less than 50 power points plz" or "Open to all power points" depending on the type of group they desire to run with.
    This way everyone can decide for themselves if they are not comfortable running with high or low powered characters in party.

    Another option is to dedicate FTP servers vs PTP servers since often times FTP are the underpowered players.

    Please keep in mind that the loudest voice is not always the majority of voices. Nor are they necessarily the voices that put money into this game to support it.
    I'm not trying to bash FTP players but try to remember that it takes financial support to keep any game running.
    My hope is that this is not a flame war over FTP and PTP but instead, hopefully some people can contribute other alternatives to "power sharing"

  2. #2
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    I think that's a horrible attitude to have and I would be really happy if vets remembered that we won't have a game to play if we don't attract new players. Having new players sit *THAT* far behind vets in power is not the way to attract and keep those new players.
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  3. #3
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    Wow. Your first post in over 13 years of playing DDO, and it's this. My condolences.

    You may not think of yourself as an elitist, but you are. It should go without saying that people find fun in different ways. Yours is evidently in accumulating character power. That is fine, but keep in mind that clicking buttons over and over is in no way comparable to a real world accomplishment like curing cancer, or helping an old lady to cross the street - your character's progression is simply a measure of the amount of time and/or money that you have spent on the game.

    Never forget that first and foremost, DDO is a business. They need to make money. Having more players enjoying the gave gives SSG the best opportunity to makes money. Churn is inevitable, people leave, and new players are always required, otherwise the game will dwindle and die. And while people find fun in different ways, there are a few things that are not fun for most people, and especially for newcomers. Empty servers. No eligible groups on the LFM panel. Elitism towards others who struggle against a tremendous learning curve and ridiculously grindy power curve.

    What you are asking for is to further divide and segregate the game population so that your e-peen is rigidly preserved.

    Not signed. Yours is a colossally bad idea. Please feel free take another 13 years before coming back to the forums.

  4. #4
    Community Member Logicman69's Avatar
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    I actually thought his concept was interesting, but has some flaws in the way he was describing it. I think the idea was designed around reaper mode in order to get more people willing to run. This "leader bonus" as I understand it, would give lower power players a temporary boost in stats. Kinda like a bard buff or any other buff in the game. I understood it as it won't bring the lower level player up to the level of a triple completionist.. but help them hang in a bit longer and feel like they are contributing (not just piking). I imagine it would be something like "party members get 10% of the leaders HP, melee power, spell power, PRR,MRR, while in reaper mode).

    The downside I see is that it will just prompt the power gamers to pass the star to whoever is the strongest part member.. not really the leader.

    Its an interesting idea. I like the idea of having some sort of "Inspire" buff for party leaders, but I think it needs to be fleshed out a bit further so it doesn't break the questing.
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  5. #5
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    What's more to the point is this whole "power sharing" concept seems to me to be more an incentive and power-up for those vets that roll multiple accounts, multi-boxing their way to faster, easier named loot. But whatever.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I think that's a horrible attitude to have and I would be really happy if vets remembered that we won't have a game to play if we don't attract new players. Having new players sit *THAT* far behind vets in power is not the way to attract and keep those new players.
    I agree with the fact that we want to attract new players but I think that is too general of a statement. Games always have the short term traffic of players that come and go. What we need is to build the long term player base up. I enjoy this game BECAUSE their is a lot to achieve in it. If it was all just handed to me from the beginning I would lose interest quickly. I think most long term players think this way. A new potential long term player who can join the game and immediately accomplish what seasoned veterans do will have nothing to motivate them to stick with the game. They will have the "been there, done that" experience and simply move on. As far as the masses of short term FTP players, they are not the backbone of the player base, nor should they be the driving voice.

    I say this will all respect as you are very entitled to your opinion. Thank you for sharing.

  7. #7
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimus View Post
    not by taking away the meaning of all the hard work veterans have put into their characters. There are other ways. Here are a few suggestions to get the though process going.
    Exactly what is taken away from your character?

    Exactly what is it that you loose?

  8. #8
    Hero apocaladle's Avatar
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    Look at it from ssg point of view.

    They are a business first and a game second.

    This new system will likely not give 100% of the bonuses to other players so you still have the tiny edge you define yourself by and the game needs to shrink the difference between vets and new players in order to retain players.

    New players often dont want to jump into groups on multi skull reaper while they are learning the game and cant contribute.

    If you hold your score in a videogame so highly, maybe encourage others to get into the game in a welcoming way to help the game grow to make more content for you to play too.

    If you keep pushing new players out it will only hurt the game as a whole and make your score worth even less than it is already.

    No one cares you have all the past lives and a ton of reaper points, you may find self worth from that but it doesnt automatically get you respect, it is literally just a measure of how much time you put in the game.

    Also this change doesnt hurt you at all so stop throwing a tantrum on your soap box and just enjoy the game.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khimberlhyte View Post
    Wow. Your first post in over 13 years of playing DDO, and it's this. My condolences.

    You may not think of yourself as an elitist, but you are. It should go without saying that people find fun in different ways. Yours is evidently in accumulating character power. That is fine, but keep in mind that clicking buttons over and over is in no way comparable to a real world accomplishment like curing cancer, or helping an old lady to cross the street - your character's progression is simply a measure of the amount of time and/or money that you have spent on the game.

    Never forget that first and foremost, DDO is a business. They need to make money. Having more players enjoying the gave gives SSG the best opportunity to makes money. Churn is inevitable, people leave, and new players are always required, otherwise the game will dwindle and die. And while people find fun in different ways, there are a few things that are not fun for most people, and especially for newcomers. Empty servers. No eligible groups on the LFM panel. Elitism towards others who struggle against a tremendous learning curve and ridiculously grindy power curve.

    What you are asking for is to further divide and segregate the game population so that your e-peen is rigidly preserved.

    Not signed. Yours is a colossally bad idea. Please feel free take another 13 years before coming back to the forums.
    Hm, it's too bad that personal attacks have to be included rather than sticking to the posted discussion. I respect your different point of view without suggesting that you no longer participate in any further discussions. As far as being called an elitist, I do not think I fit the image you intend for it, but don't worry, I understand the insult as you meant it. In the game I commonly come to the assistance of newer players in party. I am often the one to go find the player who got lost and died in some other area of the quest while the groups continues to roll along. I answer questions and respond to players asking for directions.
    As far as getting enjoyment from accumulating power, well...yes. Getting good gear is accumulating power, using character creators to optimize builds is accumulating power. The entire game is based around that concept unless you just enjoy strolling through the dungeons to look at the artwork and scenery. (which is enjoyable until you have done it many times over)

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    One of the areas in the OP I'm not fond of is the area where LFM's set a required 'Power Level'. My reason for not liking this has to do with the era of 'You must have x HP to play with us'.

    The point of any mechanic to bring those that have lots of Extra past lives/reaper under their belt with those that do not, is to create an incentive for these two to group, and also an incentive to play a character that does not have all those bells/whistles (Alt crowd).

    They appear to be trying avoid the negative aspect of Account progression - Where once it is done there is no need to do it again.

    I want to see them flesh out this leadership party bonus before I state my view. It is interesting, but if it give too much or too little it could pose its own set of problems, or simply be something that had a lot of time and no value towards its intended purpose.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    What's more to the point is this whole "power sharing" concept seems to me to be more an incentive and power-up for those vets that roll multiple accounts, multi-boxing their way to faster, easier named loot. But whatever.
    This is an interesting point. I had not even considered that side of it.

  12. #12
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    I was curious if this was a general feeling among the top-end players or just one individual.

    From my POV; I actually dropped out of a group getting ready to run DA on R4, (I got a cold invite when I stepped out from token farming). It was a relatively new character- three lives, one EPL in the wrong sphere (Primal, on a wizard, lol)- and I didn't want to not contribute to the whole group by standing there as a ghost until the shrine appears.

    A system where the leader provides the benefits of experience (achievements/PLs, etc) would smooth that jagged gulf between a relatively new character and a strong, established character. The concept makes sense.
    It also drives away the huge difference between a new player and an old one; everyone seems concerned about the lack of willingness to group up anymore, for polarized reasons;i.e. experienced vs. not experienced.

    I usually only run with guildies- friends- because I don't want to look like a buffoon with strangers. (I have no problem looking like one with friends, apparently).
    If there was a system that esteemed all the hard work, benefits of subscription, etc as the OP outlined above, I think it make those Vets more desirable as group leaders. People would start paying attention to who is leading so they would get the benefits of that experience. That builds reputations.

    It also gives the new players an idea of who leads well; guild recruitment goes up for those skilled leaders, teaching may start in game on the chat, and the whole game might see a renaissance/ renewal as a result of this change.

    I don't see how the top end players lose anything as a result of forging the way ahead over years. The new players only benefit while in the party, and take nothing from it expect the rewards of the quests run. And if you don't want to share your leet skilz with new players, make someone else the leader or don't group with anyone outside your circle, which many already do.

    TL/DR
    Leadership project outlined by Steele
    -better PUG success rate
    -top players will be a sought after resource
    -new players won't be so intimidated
    -mentoring opportunities in game
    -resurgence in DDO population possible because less intimidation of new players trying to keep up.
    Last edited by Jerevth; 01-11-2021 at 12:00 PM. Reason: word selection, an unwanted emoji, etc
    I'm starting to get jaded about this whole process- OP release, backend nerf- it's the proverbial mule and the carrot and I end up feeling like an ***.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by apocaladle View Post
    Look at it from ssg point of view.

    They are a business first and a game second.

    This new system will likely not give 100% of the bonuses to other players so you still have the tiny edge you define yourself by and the game needs to shrink the difference between vets and new players in order to retain players.

    New players often dont want to jump into groups on multi skull reaper while they are learning the game and cant contribute.

    If you hold your score in a videogame so highly, maybe encourage others to get into the game in a welcoming way to help the game grow to make more content for you to play too.

    If you keep pushing new players out it will only hurt the game as a whole and make your score worth even less than it is already.

    No one cares you have all the past lives and a ton of reaper points, you may find self worth from that but it doesnt automatically get you respect, it is literally just a measure of how much time you put in the game.

    Also this change doesnt hurt you at all so stop throwing a tantrum on your soap box and just enjoy the game.
    I would suggest then that "New Players" should not be jumping into multi-skull reaper groups since that is not what high reaper was designed for. High reaper was designed to challenge those who are looking for greater difficulty.
    As I mention in my OP, this change DOES hurt me by removing the meaning of my hard work.
    Having an opinion on something does not mean I am throwing a tantrum. I believe I am presenting my view in a very calm, and controlled manner.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragavon View Post
    Exactly what is taken away from your character?

    Exactly what is it that you loose?
    It takes time and effort to achieve the benefits from all those reincarnations and reaper points. If a person who has done none of the work can gain the same benefits, there is no incentive to achieve those things. Those long term gains are what holds my attention in this game after all these years of playing. Without incentive, I LOSE my interest in the game. The game LOSES a long term player and financial supporter.

  15. #15
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khimberlhyte View Post

    You may not think of yourself as an elitist, but you are. .
    And you are who to call other players out?

    As for the OP.

    SIGNED.

    That entire power share concept is one sure fire way to blow up an already volatile atmosphere. TOTAL nonsense concept. Bring that **** into the game and watch more people leave.

  16. #16
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimus View Post
    I would suggest then that "New Players" should not be jumping into multi-skull reaper groups since that is not what high reaper was designed for. High reaper was designed to challenge those who are looking for greater difficulty.
    As I mention in my OP, this change DOES hurt me by removing the meaning of my hard work.
    Having an opinion on something does not mean I am throwing a tantrum. I believe I am presenting my view in a very calm, and controlled manner.
    I'd have to agree here. The counter-proposal was well outlined. edit: though I disagree

    High-reaper was intended to fill that "Challenge" for the top players that wasn't present before.
    Why shouldn't the new crowd get some scare-fueled-adrenaline, too, though. Even if the gap is closed, the player skill will come to the forefront. If you aren't as good a player yet, your toon will die, regardless. The leader will be pocketing the stones for the next shrine, anyway, and the nubs will watch and learn. (or jump around as ghosts and flowersniffing in 10 second perimeters.)
    Last edited by Jerevth; 01-11-2021 at 12:23 PM. Reason: left out a statement
    I'm starting to get jaded about this whole process- OP release, backend nerf- it's the proverbial mule and the carrot and I end up feeling like an ***.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimus View Post
    Hm, it's too bad that personal attacks have to be included rather than sticking to the posted discussion.
    Cry me a river. Personal attacks would be calling you an idiot, a buffoon, or similar.

    I accurately called you an elitist based upon your request that the devs add a flag to each character name in the game in order to display the size of their e-peen. Your stated goal is to separate yourself from people you see as riff-raff by blocking them from your groups, and preferably by putting newcomers completely out of your sight onto a separate server until they prove themselves worthy of joining you in-game.

    Please, enlighten me about how I mislabeled you as an elitist. I am curious about how you misconstrue an accurate label of blatant elitism to somehow be a personal attack.

    If you don't want to be called out an elitist who is overly concerned that people might not be able to see the size of their e-peen in the game, maybe try not acting like one.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimus View Post
    I would suggest then that "New Players" should not be jumping into multi-skull reaper groups since that is not what high reaper was designed for. High reaper was designed to challenge those who are looking for greater difficulty.
    As I mention in my OP, this change DOES hurt me by removing the meaning of my hard work.
    Having an opinion on something does not mean I am throwing a tantrum. I believe I am presenting my view in a very calm, and controlled manner.
    Sorry, but your main argument comes across as petty and selfish regardless of how you phrase it. It essentially sounds like a billionaire saying “I’ve got mine, so screw you” to anybody he or she finds needing help during his day to day life. Honestly, it’s not a good look.

    You seem to treat the idea of power sharing as a tax on your ego, while I look at it as an investment in the future of DDO.

    We need new blood in this game, and isolating those few new players to run lower difficulties by themselves is the antithesis of building a thriving gaming community. It’s shortsighted at best. Personally, I have no issues whatsoever with sharing my power with newer players until they can run confidently under their own steam.

    I mean c’mon! It’s not like they’d be taking any power away from you.
    Last edited by DerpDerply; 01-11-2021 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khimberlhyte View Post
    Cry me a river. Personal attacks would be calling you an idiot, a buffoon, or similar.

    I accurately called you an elitist based upon your request that the devs add a flag to each character name in the game in order to display the size of their e-peen. Your stated goal is to separate yourself from people you see as riff-raff by blocking them from your groups, and preferably by putting newcomers completely out of your sight onto a separate server until they prove themselves worthy of joining you in-game.

    Please, enlighten me about how I mislabeled you as an elitist. I am curious about how you misconstrue an accurate label of blatant elitism to somehow be a personal attack.

    If you don't want to be called out an elitist who is overly concerned that people might not be able to see the size of their e-peen in the game, maybe try not acting like one.
    I am interested in discussion about the topic of the post, not getting into a personal argument. I will not be replying to this tangent any more as it does not seem constructive.

  20. #20
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimus View Post
    I would suggest then that "New Players" should not be jumping into multi-skull reaper groups since that is not what high reaper was designed for. High reaper was designed to challenge those who are looking for greater difficulty.
    I agree with the OP for the most part, and 100% agree with this statement.

    It seems like a participation trophy solution to the power gap between people that have put in the work and time and someone that has not. How does this help new players really. It gives them artificial power to play difficulties that they should not be playing yet. All it does is compensate for acquired skill to play higher difficulties with artificial PC power.

    I understand the whole 'business' argument, but what ever happened to if you want a better character, put in the time and effort? Have we really run into a generation of gamers that expect to have power given that was not earned?

    I for one would not want to play with this 'boon'. If they implement this, they have to have a way to turn it off for people that don't want this.
    Last edited by Baahb3; 01-11-2021 at 12:38 PM.
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