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  1. #1
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    Default Reimagining Summons

    I think the current model of summons - specifically summons, not hires or pets - is flawed and won't ever be fixable. With the amount of variability in difficulty, and the number of potential force multipliers available, having a standalone 100% uptime summon can't be reasonably balanced - best case scenario, it would still inevitably fall into either "useless unless you completely build for it" or "way too powerful at the top end", neither of which is a sustainable model.

    So what I'm suggesting is to change summons to much more powerful versions of their current implementation...way more damage, hp, spell power, etc...but limit them by uptime - CDs much longer than their duration - so they effectively become burst damage/support. I think having them be part time would create much more flexibility to make them powerful enough to be worth using, but not allow you to build 100% summons where they become an OP OSFA answer to every situation.

  2. #2
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    Default I Agree

    Make summons somewhat comparable in strength to a carnage reaper or a famine reaper, then have them scale with skulls, and finally make them last for 45-60 seconds with a five minute cooldown.

    They would be a burst of support that has a 20% up time and is strong enough to kill mobs and tank some hits but not kill a boss. It is hard to call it OP when Charms can have the same effect.

  3. #3
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    Post Please don't reduce the uptime

    As someone with a solo summoner alt - I have some issues with your suggestion.

    A lot of people I play with told me that they don't like hirelings and pets in groups, because they make the combat more chaotic.
    To keep their preferences in mind I only play my summoner alt solo.
    Thus the comments below will focus on solo play!

    For context - here is some information about my build and summoner playstyle.
    My summoner has
    - no combat feats (my weapon damage is low)
    - no metamagic for spell power (my spell damage is mediocre)
    - all the summoning feats (including 3x druid past life)
    - feats that help with support and control
    - rogue level to deal with traps (traps on higher difficulties can easily destroy your army)
    The goal is to control the enemy while your army of hirelings, pets and summons tear them apart.

    My solo group consists of
    - pet (wolf or skeleton warrior)
    - 1-3 hireling
    - the best summon I can get

    I usually play on
    - heroic elite (some newer quests destroy summons on elite)
    - epic hard (this is the most I can get out of the summons)



    The main problem I have with your suggestion is uptime.
    Stronger summons would help with the killing, but not having them around would force me to buy more hirelings to compensate for the large enemy groups in the newer quests.
    With buffs, enhancements and all the summoning related feats the summons can take several hits and can hold agro. I think that is better than burst damage.

    When the summon is down, I would have to wait for the cooldown - which is not fun.

    I agree that we need a summon overhaul, but instead of beefing them up and reducing their uptime, how about:
    - add a command interface for summons
    - improve summon AI
    - overhaul summon feats, enhancements and abilities
    - summon stats should be optimized to represent various archetypes - tank, bruiser, controller, healer, trapper ... etc
    - introduce a new feat to allow multiple summons at the same time
    - introduce a new epic feat for strong epic summons (Dragon knight, Pit fiend, Balor, Angels ... etc)

  4. #4
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think the current model of summons - specifically summons, not hires or pets - is flawed and won't ever be fixable. With the amount of variability in difficulty, and the number of potential force multipliers available, having a standalone 100% uptime summon can't be reasonably balanced - best case scenario, it would still inevitably fall into either "useless unless you completely build for it" or "way too powerful at the top end", neither of which is a sustainable model.

    So what I'm suggesting is to change summons to much more powerful versions of their current implementation...way more damage, hp, spell power, etc...but limit them by uptime - CDs much longer than their duration - so they effectively become burst damage/support. I think having them be part time would create much more flexibility to make them powerful enough to be worth using, but not allow you to build 100% summons where they become an OP OSFA answer to every situation.
    This is exactly what they do with mobs you know, they just +++ everything.

  5. #5
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Default

    I still just want a real pet for Rangers...

  6. #6
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    I still just want a real pet for Rangers...
    If only animal companions were a core d&d ranger feature

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kenawyn View Post
    ...

    I agree that we need a summon overhaul, but instead of beefing them up and reducing their uptime, how about:
    - add a command interface for summons
    - improve summon AI
    - overhaul summon feats, enhancements and abilities
    - summon stats should be optimized to represent various archetypes - tank, bruiser, controller, healer, trapper ... etc
    - introduce a new feat to allow multiple summons at the same time
    - introduce a new epic feat for strong epic summons (Dragon knight, Pit fiend, Balor, Angels ... etc)
    I think this is more on point to help 'fix' summons, especially a UI even with simple commands. This gives them predictability we don't currently have.

    I like the idea of multiple summons, but that should still have a top limit. Maybe +1 for every 3 levels above the minimum caster level of the spell.

    Epic summons are currently in the Magistar tree, but I think their CR should be appropriate based on the Caster Level.

    What would be good is a UI so you can see the summons Stats similar to the Pets

    * As a note I agree with Ranger needing to include the pet summon. The original rules was pick 2 of the 3 options TWF, Bow, and Pet.

  8. #8
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    * As a note I agree with Ranger needing to include the pet summon. The original rules was pick 2 of the 3 options TWF, Bow, and Pet.
    DDO tried to compensate for the lack of animal companion (this was years before they brought out Artificer or Druid) by giving Rangers 2 combat styles, but choosing any 2 of 3 was not the "original rules". The original rules were Rangers got 1 combat style, and an animal companion, period.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Our final update of 2014 will extend the level cap to 30, which is intended to be DDO’s “permanent” level cap

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