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  1. #21
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apocaladle View Post

    This community spooks super easy with only a little bit of the info.
    Indeed.

    Maybe a little more info would help avoid that??
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  2. #22
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Indeed.

    Maybe a little more info would help avoid that??
    Could try waiting till they are ready to release more info about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Added even later: Ignore this add, I am the dumb.

  3. #23
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Could try waiting till they are ready to release more info about it?
    It seems fairly clear to me that Steelstar and SSG have a MUCH better idea of what they're intending to do regarding "fixing" bows.

    So far, Steelstar has mentioned a new tree called "Horizon Walker" (and he sounds very confident that that is what it will be called) and also the fact they're looking to make bows better for ALL bow users and maybe not just the usual bow-using suspects like Rangers.

    Those facts and that direction sound very substantive to me. He DEFINITELY knows more than he's letting on.

    I don't think it would hurt to maybe throw us a few more bones.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  4. #24
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Here's just 1 issue I have w/ a new UT.

    Want to use a bastard sword? Take exotic wep training. Get it?

    Or we can just water down the game some more.

    If new game design is allowing "unrestricted" use of low hanging fruit via UT's, then I'm out. I've seen enough of that already.

    Build diversity? Sure, we have a lot, more than any other game. But after waiting over 4 years for a meaningful change, only to have the issue addressed w/ a UT is a cop-out.

  5. #25
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    If SSG is going to fix Bow combat they should do it as a Ranger tree.

    Making it a UT just guarantees general power creep in one form or another. Making it a Ranger tree allows both for fixing Bows and also getting a handle on the likely power creep to come.

  6. #26
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoobTheProud View Post
    If SSG is going to fix Bow combat they should do it as a Ranger/Fighter tree.

    Making it a UT just guarantees general power creep in one form or another. Making it a Ranger tree allows both for fixing Bows and also getting a handle on the likely power creep to come.
    +1

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer View Post
    Ranger/Fighter +1
    The problem there is what about Monks? What about SF Clr/FvS/Pal? What about Rogue? All of them have specific support for Bows already, just like Ranger and Fighter, but all of them need more enhancement support for bows to make their bow builds actually viable.

    Why should Bow Kensei be any different than SF Warpriests? Why should Monk not have any Bow enhancements at all even though its a Centering weapon? You're picking winners and losers arbitrarily.

  8. #28
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer View Post
    Ranger/Fighter +1
    Why not Paladin, too?

    They made changes to KotC to accomodate ranged playstyles.


    What about Monk? Monks like to use bows as well.



    See where this is going?


    EDIT: Ninjaed by droid327.
    Last edited by Arkat; 01-08-2021 at 06:11 PM.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  9. #29
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We could; however, those two changes alone would also be terrible for game performance...
    If bows firing at rates comparable to crossbows and thrown weapons would be terrible for game performance, I immediately jump to the conclusion that current firing rates of crossbows and thrown weapons are terrible for game performance.

    So you can improve lag and make bows just as good as other ranged, by reducing the firing rate of other ranged to be similar to bows!
    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Our final update of 2014 will extend the level cap to 30, which is intended to be DDO’s “permanent” level cap

  10. #30
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    RANGE - stars, daggers, hammers, darts should be SHORT ranged and damage based on STR
    but they are insanely long ranged. combat range needs to be important.
    ...
    Spells have ranges, range weapons should too.
    Wow, you finally posted something I can wholeheartedly agree with!

    In pen-and-paper, a dagger or shuriken could be thrown a maximum of 50', while a longbow could shoot up to 1000'.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Our final update of 2014 will extend the level cap to 30, which is intended to be DDO’s “permanent” level cap

  11. #31
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If bows firing at rates comparable to crossbows and thrown weapons would be terrible for game performance, I immediately jump to the conclusion that current firing rates of crossbows and thrown weapons are terrible for game performance.

    So you can improve lag and make bows just as good as other ranged, by reducing the firing rate of other ranged to be similar to bows!
    They will more then likely do the manyshot nerf 2.0 and change many of those to more ranged power less projectiles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Added even later: Ignore this add, I am the dumb.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer View Post
    The BIGGEST concern is making "horizon walker" a UT.

    I guarantee there will be 23 players (myself included) that will walk away from this game if an issue, a SPECIFIC issue is addressed via a UT.

    I'll stand behind most everything SSG does, but if the engineering dept can't make a go of it without adding a UT, then my faith and backing is misplaced.
    What specific issue are you concerned about. I scanned several Universal Tree threads and cannot figure it out.

  13. #33
    Community Member K_9's Avatar
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    I wonder if a new chain of Bow feats could solve the problem.

    Lets call it Bow Feat 1, 2 & 3 or what ever. Each one grants Ranged Power (Bows only) and also grants something additonal like Armour Pen, Strikethrough or Double shot or something. The only potential problem I could see with this is though that Bow fighting is already quite feat intensive, so perhaps put some of these into Bows inheriently.

    The soloution IMO is not giving a new Buy to Play enhancement tree to fix an already bad system. I would have as much enthusiasm for that if they decided to say, ok we know Arch Mage is bad so we'll redesign it but you'll have to spend SSG points to be able to use it. Slight exageration but you know what I mean, if anything a new tree should be about new play styles and othering something unique / fun not as a fix for something broke.

    Hopefully the bow pass will work out ok.

  14. #34
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    The problems with bows could have easily been fixed years ago simply by making them hit harder. Harder hits (a hit is a hit) don't put additional load on the server resources whereas tons of small, rapid hits do put a significant load on the servers. This is what should have been done with all ranged builds.

    Since this is apparently impossible for some mysterious reason, SSG should just claim that autoattacking with bows causes lag and remove bows from the game.

    This would be a win-win.
    1) SSG wouldn't need to devote all the coding hours to a new tree that will most likely be buggy as hell and just add more lag to the game anyway.
    --1a) SSG could instead devote all those coding hours towards additional debugging and fixing the current hot mess of lag.
    2) This will eliminate the inevitable tears from the masses when the new bow tree turns out to be stupidly balanced and overpowered, then gets nerfed into oblivion about the same everyone TRs into it.
    Last edited by LT218; 01-09-2021 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If bows firing at rates comparable to crossbows and thrown weapons would be terrible for game performance, I immediately jump to the conclusion that current firing rates of crossbows and thrown weapons are terrible for game performance.

    So you can improve lag and make bows just as good as other ranged, by reducing the firing rate of other ranged to be similar to bows!
    The simplest fix would be to adjust the damage that arrows and bolts due upwards a lot and also make the reload time much slower.

    For repeaters, well that's even simpler, leave the damage the same and make the reload time slower.

    Bows and x-bows would be like mini-rocket launchers with a longer reload time. You could differentiate them by having bows reload faster and x-bows hit harder.

    Repeaters would fire smaller bolts in packets of 3 and for less damage each than bows or x-bows. Maybe have the 3 bolts do similar damage to 2 arrows or 1.5 bolts. however reloading the cartridge for another 3 shots would take twice as long as reloading a x-bow bolt.

    The ranged weapons in total would be harder hitting than melee weapons by a bit but would also have less effective 'swings' due to longer reload times.

    You could even up the 'per swing' damage between melee and ranged if you could figure out how to constrain melee swings realistically over time.

    People will argue that ranged attackers get many more shots in at range, however that is only true in the current system where the ranged options people mainly use are very fast to reload and fire. In a system where the ranged weapons reloaded much more slowly there would be just a few very effective shots at range and then the ranged played would be surrounded by attackers and taking damage as they fired and reloaded.

    You could even go for realism and make it very hard to reload a ranged weapon on the move. Think about what it takes to load a x-bow bolt, with the pulling/winding of the string into lock and then the placement of a bolt on the quarrel. This is not something that could be managed easily on the run for repeated shots. Bows, slightly easier to manage.

    Ok, so now we're down to shuriken and those require a full release with the torque of the wrist, arm, shoulder and body all involved. This is not something you do effectively while falling backwards or backpedaling let alone running in circles, hopping and tumbling. Shuriken usage should be dead still only or better yet each thrown should require a step forward to get the body weight into the equation.

  16. #36
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    The OP was only meant to address the concerns about firing rates or number of missiles a bow user can fire over a period of time.
    They got to fix the nowhere shots first as it doesn't matter if you shoot to nowhere slow or quick.
    Otherwise I think the bow expertise feat is a good idea. Rangers should get it free.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Is a new bow tree really needed?
    Well, that will be an OP tree that will change the meta (on a pre-nerf inquisitive and/or no-save feydark color spray level). But it will be part of the expansion which you got to pay for. It is like the part of their upcoming product.
    Last edited by kanordog; 01-08-2021 at 08:03 PM.
    You nerfed my monks, dailies and alchemists.
    I nerfed your profit on two accounts.

  17. #37
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    I had a thought, in a lot of fantasy stuff and even a few real trick shot artist can fire (2) arrows at the same time from a bow

    you see where this is going

    Art - 3 shots at a time (repeater)
    Inq - 2 shots at a time (xbow)
    Horizon - 2 arrows at a time (bow)

    that would be - different

  18. #38
    Community Member Indubitably's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    The problem with bows, as I and several people I know see them, is their rate of fire.

    People are suggesting that maybe the new bow tree can speed up the firing rate by taking the alacrity cap off the animation to make using bows competitive with throwing weapon builds.
    Do we *NEED* a new bow tree -> No.
    Would a new bow tree be good -> YES.

    Rate of fire, animation, damage... they will get tweaked at the base level. As it should. Enchancement trees shouldn't be a method of balancing out core mechanics.
    That aside... why else do we want a bow universal tree?

    1) Ranger is the ONLY class with any gains from bows whatsoever. You need to go ranger, splash ranger, or as a minimum - go elf and invest 14 racial points to unlock a ranger tree. No other weapon style is limited to only one class - it's nice to give other classes the chance to work bows into their build without having to go ranger (even if its the more optimal choice still).

    2) Its not just ROF or Damage that is lacking. IPS is the only method of any kind of aoe or multishot. Its fantastic solo...with backpeddling... questionable in many other cases. With the archers focus buff... it's also not a clear "always use" stance. A new Bow tree gives opportunities for some aoe like abilities.
    - Volley, barrage, multishot, rain of arrows, etc...call it whatever you want... cone or circular aoe (or both!) of arrows to hit multiple mobs at once. Thats what a lot of bow users would like.

    3) It's not just a bow tree. Horizon walkers are a little on the magic side. Plane travellers and the like. It should be cool.
    Of Course I can CC - Death is a form of CC.
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  19. #39
    Hatchery Hero Dark_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
    You need to be more open-minded here. DDO is not about this class does this, this class does that and that class does that. It is a system that allows people to play the character they'd like.

    The appeal of a bow is supposed to be more to every class rather than the "default" ranger class, and elves to a lesser degree. As others mentioned, this will give other classes more choices. Anything that allows more diversity in builds is good IMHO.
    That is the failure. D&D wasn't that open. It used to have classes which you were TRAINED in specializing (thus, leveling in that particular class and trained by a trainer). the GOOD old days meant certain races could only excel in certain classes and only to certain levels (human was a jack of all trades, but master of none). You concentrated your learning into specific skills, thus sacrificing the ability to do others. You set up a party that each person specialized and could work as a team (the whole is greater than the sum of its parts).

    That was all thrown out and this "one person does everything" which is the comic book superhero version which is another game (go play that solo game somewhere else)

    Fire vs. water. good vs. evil. Chaotic vs lawful.

    They failed miserably by taking out the rock-paper-scissor aspect.


    Now they introduce even more variations, can't understand all the permutations, and then have to massively nerf everything when they didn't anticipate power gamer's ability to outthink them.
    Just fix what is there; Quit abandoning existing systems (how many crafting systems have they destroyed due to their ego of having their own "perfect" one?) Fix the lag. OMG, that would bring back so many players to the existing content.
    Oh, that's easy. I didn't farm them. I just cheated. -Meghan
    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    lol, I didnt give it a QA pass.

  20. #40
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    I think in reality you wont see distance differentials among changes implemented in ranged combat at this point as the code would be too much to deal with without making a new game engine.

    I really do enjoy playing a Bow character and how SSG proceeds is going to be as good as can be and thats fine with me.

    The lag is the most important thing at the moment and i wiill continue to support this game even if no new content is made this year instead to fix the ongoing connection issues as others have stated.

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