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  1. #1
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Default Is a New Bow Tree Really Needed?

    The problem with bows, as I and several people I know see them, is their rate of fire.

    People are suggesting that maybe the new bow tree can speed up the firing rate by taking the alacrity cap off the animation to make using bows competitive with throwing weapon builds.

    I've been thinking that what makes throwing weapon builds (alchemists and shuriken/dagger throwers) useful in end-game content are the feats that grant always-on Doubleshot like Simple Thrown Expertise and Shuriken Expertise. These two feats allow throwers (depending on class or race) to throw a lot more missiles than bow users can currently shoot.

    The obvious simple solution, it seems to me, is to add a similar feat (call it Bow Expertise) that adds a bunch more Doubleshot at all times. You might have to modify Manyshot a little bit so that it's more inline with the chance of an extra missile that 10K Stars and Multitude of Missiles grants, but I think that would be a reasonable action to take.
    Last edited by Arkat; 01-08-2021 at 12:03 PM.
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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    The problem with bows, as I and several people I know see them, is their rates of fire.

    People are suggesting that maybe the new bow tree can speed up the firing rate by taking the alacrity cap off the animation to make using bows competitive with throwing weapon builds.
    Worth noting: As we've stated elsewhere, we're working on fixes to the overall combat style (that should benefit all bow users, whether or not they use the new tree) in addition to the new tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Removing* the cap is part of what we're working on, yes.

    (*not actually "removing", per se - all animations have a cap for stability reasons - but after this pass, bow's cap should be in a place closer to other combat animations, above what you can get through speed boosts, and attack speed boosts should work as expected. That's the plan, anyway. More concrete details down the line.)
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
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  3. #3
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    The OP is not meant to imply that bow work isn't needed in other areas. It certainly is.

    Specifically, the Arcane Archer tree needs work.

    The OP was only meant to address the concerns about firing rates or number of missiles a bow user can fire over a period of time.
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  4. #4
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Worth noting: As we've stated elsewhere, we're working on fixes to the overall combat style (that should benefit all bow users, whether or not they use the new tree) in addition to the new tree.
    But that was the main point of my OP overall. Is a new bow tree really needed? That's probably a lot of Dev time that can be better spent elsewhere I'm guessing.

    You can address damage dealt by bows in ways that do not include a whole new tree.

    Increasing the number of missiles fired over a given time period and "modernizing" the AA tree would go a LONG way towards addressing the concerns of most bow users.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    But that was the main point of my OP overall. Is a new bow tree really needed? That's probably a lot of Dev time that can be better spent elsewhere I'm guessing.

    You can address damage dealt by bows in ways that do not include a whole new tree.

    Increasing the number of missiles fired over a given time period and "modernizing" the AA tree would go a LONG way towards addressing the concerns of most bow users.
    We could; however, those two changes alone would also be terrible for game performance and shortchange a lot of not-currently-viable builds that have the potential to be fun and interesting.

    We'll have more details about the bow combat style changes and the Horizon Walker tree down the line!
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  6. #6
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    I would like to see Bows uncoupled so much from Ranger and Elf/Half Elf.

    You can make a viable xbow build with any class/race using Inquisitive. You can make a viable thrower with any class/race with Vistani. By combining a class DPS tree with the universal tree. I think that it would be fun to do divine bow builds, fighter bow builds, etc. Without being tied to one class and/or race.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that AA and DWS could use some tweaks. But I don't think that means that a bow universal couldn't be a nice secondary DPS tree when combined with one (or both of them) or when combined with Kensai, Warpriest/Warsoul, KoTC, etc. Much like Vistani, Falconry, and Inquisitive have synergy with a number of different class DPS trees.

    All of this also assumes some systemic changes to RoF, damage profile, and sustained/burst DPS interactions which are necessary beyond the enhancements.
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    Agreed - there's lots of builds that need better tree support - monkcher, bowbarian, bow bard, silver flame divines, etc. Having one uni tree is simpler than trying to work bows into all those class trees individually.

    I just hope that the mechanics are released first and given a chance to "settle in" before HW is released so we can see the effects of both, judge both and balance both independently of each other.

  8. #8
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We could; however, those two changes alone would also be terrible for game performance
    So Simple Thrown Expertise and Shuriken Expertise are also terrible for game performance?

    If so, you should address them, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    and shortchange a lot of not-currently-viable builds that have the potential to be fun and interesting.
    Well, there you have me. I'm super-curious to see what fun new avenues of gameplay Horizon Walker will open up.
    Last edited by Arkat; 01-08-2021 at 12:48 PM.
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  9. #9
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    I, personally, am against Universal Weapon trees... They diminish the class trees, period...

    But that seems to be the "NEW NORMAL" around here...

    Oh well...

    Just be prepared, they are going to release the tree (along with the supposed fixes to other issues), and call it a day... The Horizon Walker is your bow fix...



    Fix the lag first, then maybe I'll get excited about ANYTHING new, even an unnecessary tree...
    Last edited by salmag; 01-08-2021 at 12:54 PM.
    THANK YOU SO MUCH

  10. #10
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    The problem with bows, as I and several people I know see them, is their rate of fire.

    SNIP.

    The straight forward honest answer is yes, a new universal tree designed to improve the DPS capability of Bow builds across the board is needed in DDO. Unlike the coupled aspect of the Arcane Archer, which is linked to the Ranger Class and the trio of Elf races, a Universal Tree will allow for builds outside of those to potentially be played by a larger cross section of the game. Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Rogues and others may be able to tap into this tree and have very different play styles than what is currently available.

    A new DPS tree doesn't solve all the problems with Bow Builds. It simply shifts some of the issues around.

    Currently I am playing a bow build currently on live system. As a member of the Player's Council I want to make sure I am walking the walk and not just theory crafting when I am providing feedback. It is from this experience I have put forth my opinion. I have advocated for additions and changes in the current system, including Arcane Archer, Double Shot, Heavy Draw, and several others Feats Enhancements and Epic Destinies. My view is if you are in for a penny, you might as well be in for the pound.

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  11. #11
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    Unlike the coupled aspect of the Arcane Archer, which is linked to the Ranger Class and the trio of Elf races, a Universal Tree will allow for builds outside of those to potentially be played by a larger cross section of the game. Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Rogues and others may be able to tap into this tree and have very different play styles than what is currently available.
    Good point.

    +1

    (Apparently I gave you rep too recently. I'll try to swing back to you later to rep this post.)
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Rogues and others may be able to tap into this tree and have very different play styles than what is currently available.
    Basically any class that supports bow use in some way, but doesnt provide an avenue to spend 80 AP towards supporting bow combat. Obviously, if you're a bow build and only have 30something AP to spend towards bow enhancements, you're going to be severely inadequate in terms of damage output.

    I think Monkchers are going to be the biggest beneficiary since Monk currently has basically no Bow enhancements to speak of. Silver Flame Clr/Pal/FvS will have something to pair with the minor bow utility in KotC/Warpriest. Barbarians will be able to leverage Bow Strength with Rages (though to-hit would still be an issue). Rangers can go full-physical with DWS+HW instead of being forced to go into AA.

    Granted there will be a lot of overlap with Inqui, since they're both ranged uni trees...but depending how the bonuses in HW are distributed, it might also create options as a secondary tree for some builds that cant afford the full 41/T5 that Inqui requires to really be worthwhile, and open up ranged variants currently locked out to builds that cant use xbows.

    Corrupting my own wish, so to say...depending how the bonuses in HW are typed and stacked, it might also pair with inqui to provide a 100% Universal Tree ranged combat build :P 41 Inqui 11 FI 28 HW lol
    Last edited by droid327; 01-08-2021 at 01:56 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    besides the already discussed issues, I have some different issue with ranged combat

    RANGE - stars, daggers, hammers, darts should be SHORT ranged and damage based on STR
    but they are insanely long ranged. combat range needs to be important.

    Very long range - Compound longbows (should be considered an exotic weapon and have point blank built in)
    Long range - Great Crossbow, long bow
    Medium range - short bow, heavy repeater, heavy crossbow
    short range - Light repeater, light crossbow, Inq. duel crossbow pistols
    Very short range - darts, daggers, other throw weapons

    Spells have ranges, range weapons should too.

  14. #14
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We could; however, those two changes alone would also be terrible for game performance and shortchange a lot of >>> not-currently-viable builds that have the potential to be fun and interesting<<<.

    We'll have more details about the bow combat style changes and the Horizon Walker tree down the line!
    Some elaboration please? or in other words, sounds like that new tree is not just about bows.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    Some elaboration please? or in other words, sounds like that new tree is not just about bows.
    We'll have more details about the Horizon Walker tree down the line!
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  16. #16
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    besides the already discussed issues, I have some different issue with ranged combat

    RANGE - stars, daggers, hammers, darts should be SHORT ranged and damage based on STR
    but they are insanely long ranged. combat range needs to be important.

    Very long range - Compound longbows (should be considered an exotic weapon and have point blank built in)
    Long range - Great Crossbow, long bow
    Medium range - short bow, heavy repeater, heavy crossbow
    short range - Light repeater, light crossbow, Inq. duel crossbow pistols
    Very short range - darts, daggers, other throw weapons

    Spells have ranges, range weapons should too.
    This is what I came to post so thanks. Any bow "fix" that doesn't include range effects will be a failure ihmo. All ranged weapons need to be less effective outside of their appropriate range if you want them to have effective power at closer ranges.

  17. #17
    Community Member Cavalier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salmag View Post
    I, personally, am against Universal Weapon trees... They diminish the class trees, period...
    You need to be more open-minded here. DDO is not about this class does this, this class does that and that class does that. It is a system that allows people to play the character they'd like.

    Universal Weapon Trees are a great way to allow certain classes to play with weapons / build and playstyles they would not otherwise touch. Who used to use daggers to fight? With the Vistani Dagger tree, this is now a viable option.

    The appeal of a bow is supposed to be more to every class rather than the "default" ranger class, and elves to a lesser degree. As others mentionned, this will give other classes more choices. Anything that allows more diversity in builds is good IMHO.

  18. #18
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We'll have more details about the Horizon Walker tree down the line!

    The BIGGEST concern is making "horizon walker" a UT.

    I guarantee there will be 23 players (myself included) that will walk away from this game if an issue, a SPECIFIC issue is addressed via a UT.

    I'll stand behind most everything SSG does, but if the engineering dept can't make a go of it without adding a UT, then my faith and backing is misplaced.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer View Post
    The BIGGEST concern is making "horizon walker" a UT.

    I guarantee there will be 23 players (myself included) that will walk away from this game if an issue, a SPECIFIC issue is addressed via a UT.

    I'll stand behind most everything SSG does, but if the engineering dept can't make a go of it without adding a UT, then my faith and backing is misplaced.
    Dude literally said the tree was not the only thing for bows and that they were making bows attacks animations cap higher across the board among other things.

    The tree is just another option for bows like vistani is for daggers.

    This community spooks super easy with only a little bit of the info.

  20. #20
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apocaladle View Post
    Dude literally said the tree was not the only thing for bows and that they were making bows attacks animations cap higher across the board among other things.

    The tree is just another option for bows like vistani is for daggers.

    This community spooks super easy with only a little bit of the info.

    DUDE!!!!!!

    I have been all over this topic for 4 years. This is the 2nd thread addressing a UT specifically. and Im going to say the same thing in every thread about it.

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