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  1. #1
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    Default Should Sorcs and Alcs AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling?

    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:



    Now the standard of balance is supposed to be swashbuckler, which at level 15 while leveling non-crits single target for <100, and crits for 500:



    THF is twice as powerful as swashbuckler, hitting non-crit multple targets in melee for <200:



    An inquisitor is also roughly twice as powerful as a swashbuckler, hitting about twice as fast for the same damage:


    Sorcs and Alcs however are off the charts, hitting ranged AoE non-crit for 30x as much as a swashbuckler with weaker spells, or 60x as much with stronger spells (meteor or multivial). This allows sorcs and Alcs to ranged AoE 1 shot groups of mobs, even unbuffed without consumables or ship buffs, like this:



    That is Delayed Blast Fireball, hitting for 1d6+7 (10.5) per caster level. An Alchemist multivial hits for 4d6+8 (22) per caster level, and hits more than twice as hard, hitting for >6k AoE non-crit at level 15 on a well built caster. Meteor on a sorc is the same. It doesn't really matter which one you play, both AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling. Sorcs and alcs have about the same crit chance as THF or swashbuckling, but they get 3-6k more damage on a spell at level 15, compared to ~400 more damage on a hit while swashbuckling.

    So my question is simple. Is it out of line for a sorc or alc to hit for 3-6k ranged non-crit AoE at level 15 and AoE 1 shot groups of mobs when a melee or ranged of the same level hits for <200 to a few mobs, and swashbuckling which is the standard of balance hits a single mob for <100 non-crit in melee?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Note: I didn't call out warlocks, because the math shows they don't hit for as many multipliers of swashbuckling as sorcs/alcs. The math shows a warlock at level 15 merely AoEs with Cone for twice the non-crit damage a swashbuckler hits a single target for, and Eldritch Waves AoE for merely 10x the single target damage of a swashbuckler.

    Level 15 SE/TS warlock has 4d6 Blast and 7d4 Pact damage base, plus 4d4 pact from TS enhancements, minus 1d4 pact die from cone shape.
    Net 4d6 blast and 10d4 pact.

    We will use 421 Fire, 234 Force spell power from unbuffed sorc above for calculations.130% spell power scaling yields:

    Eldritch cone hits for (4d6)(1+2.34*1.3) + 10d4*(1+4.21*1.3) = 56 + 162 = 218 non-crit

    Eldritch wave metamagic maximize/empower hits for 3x [(4d6)(1+(2.34+2.25)*1.3) + 10d4*(1+(4.21+2.25)*1.3)]
    =3x [98 + 235] = 999
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-23-2021 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:



    This means that the large majority of the player base experiences sorcs and alcs while leveling. While leveling, sorcs and alcs can AoE 1 shot groups of mobs, even unbuffed without consumables or ship buffs, like this:



    That is Delayed Blast Fireball, hitting for 1d6+7 (10.5) per caster level. An Alchemist multivial hits for 4d6+8 (22) per caster level, and hits more than twice as hard, hitting for >6k AoE non-crit at level 15 on a well built caster. It doesn't really matter which one you play, both AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling. In contrast, a well-built level 15 melee such as the newly revamped charisma KoTC paladin hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to a few mobs with strike through:



    and a well-built level 15 ranged such as an inquisitor also hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to one or a few mobs in a line:



    So my question is simple. Is it out of line for a sorc or alc to hit for 3-6k non-crit AoE at level 15 and AoE 1 shot groups of mobs when a melee or ranged of the same level hits for <200 to a few mobs?
    Caster vs. melee vs. ranged DPS is a relevant question but you are cherry picking your numbers, so this won't lead anywhere.

    First, damage != DPS, melee/ranged have higher attack speed + double shot, and I don't think that 200 number is on held mobs.

    Second, calling at cap performance irrelevant is absurd. Plenty of people play at cap permanently, and many people doing PLs play at cap between their lives, or aim to play at cap after their lives. If play at cap was an unbalanced mess, many wouldn't even bother with PLs to begin with.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-08-2021 at 10:52 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    I don't really get the purpose of these kinds of threads. This sort of thing is inherent not just to DDO, but to PnP D&D and all fantasy and mythical literature, forever.

    You have to fight Lancelot, Merlin, or Robin Hood. Starting nnnnnnn-now! Go! Make your choice!

    I can't speak for you, but I know who I bloody well wouldn't choose.

    This sort of disparity between different kinds of power and weakness also occurs in real life. You have to fight Hans Guderian's XIX Corps at the height of its power in 1939-40, or the US 8th Air Force at the height of its power in 1945. Starting nnnnn-ow! Choose!

    The bottom line is, apples and oranges compare about as effectively as apples and oranges. I don't want to play a game in which my standardized pixelated widget does the same DPS as everyone else's standardized pixelated widget, you just mash a key and off they go, woo-hoo! And I'd be surprised if anyone who still loves DDO would either.
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  4. #4
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    My first life Iconic Paladin in starter gear 1-shots groups of mobs while leveling (on Elite). Why is "Enemies in Heroic quests die too fast" a complaint that anyone would level at just one class?
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  5. #5
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    The question you should be asking isn't why nukers do so much damage....it's why nukers can have enough sp that they don't run out while spamming their nukes all quest long. That's supposed to be the balance and the trade off.

    If you let them keep their sustain and nerf their per-hit dps, then you're just making them the same as martial

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The question you should be asking isn't why nukers do so much damage....it's why nukers can have enough sp that they don't run out while spamming their nukes all quest long. That's supposed to be the balance and the trade off.

    If you let them keep their sustain and nerf their per-hit dps, then you're just making them the same as martial
    In my experience, they do if you are not running a character with all the SP gains from PLs and reaper, at least in some level brackets and in quests that aren't short. (There's also a huge variance in shrine frequency that influences this.)

    My main has run a bunch of lives as both a sorc and an alch and even with most of the extea sources of mana I have to be careful, at times even with no metamagics on. This ends by about lvl 12 for her, but must continue for newer characters.

  7. #7
    Community Member Jaxtan's Avatar
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    Should Sorcs and Alcs AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling? Answer: Of course! If a melee can AOE 1 shot a group of mobs, why not a caster?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeveTuohy View Post
    This ends by about lvl 12 for her, but must continue for newer characters.
    Well that's only a partial answer to the question then. The tradeoff shouldnt ever totally go away - you should get more and more sustain as your caster gains progression, but once it hits 100% then you're basically all upside and no downside, and that puts it at an imbalance with melee. Unless you want to give melee so much power in PLs and Reaper that they can eventually start hitting as hard as a Meteor Shower over an unrestricted AOE every couple seconds too

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:
    In the past week I've logged onto my level 7 bank mule, my currently level 12 main, and my level 30 raid toon. I spent hours on my raid toon, minutes on my bank alt, and a bit on my main. Neither of the first two has solid gear (or play, for that matter) but my capped toon has literally hours of planning spent on just the gear tetris, forgetting everything else.

    I'm not sure that your conclusion is supported by that graph? I have easily 50 toons below level 30, and all of 2 toons at level 30 (I had 3 for a brief period once lol). Still, I have more hours at-cap than not-at-cap.

    I don't disagree with a lot in your post, but I think the particular quoted claim is pretty wrong. Saying "the majority of toons in DDO aren't at cap" seems pretty reasonable - but doesn't support your thread; but cap play and cap gear is a huge factor particularly for higher Reaper and raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The question you should be asking isn't why nukers do so much damage....it's why nukers can have enough sp that they don't run out while spamming their nukes all quest long. That's supposed to be the balance and the trade off.
    I'm with this. I'm playing an Alchemist currently (my first time, with terrible gear etc) and recently hit level 12. Prior to level 12, I could choose between super-cheap stuff (Bo's T1 SLA is 1 SP for like 200 damage), pretty cheap junk AoE (low-level splash) or expensive meta'd obliteration. I could demolish packs of mobs in a few spells, but it ate my SP bar like nobody's business. I had to play conservatively and choose my moment which made for more balanced gameplay.

    Level 12 I got Multivial. Now I can oneshot most entire packs for 20 SP (and I have like 1100) so I don't need to worry about conservation. I can afford to throw full metas at bosses etc, because it's cheap to kill everything along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaeveTuohy View Post
    In my experience, they do if you are not running a character with all the SP gains from PLs and reaper, at least in some level brackets and in quests that aren't short. (There's also a huge variance in shrine frequency that influences this.)

    My main has run a bunch of lives as both a sorc and an alch and even with most of the extea sources of mana I have to be careful, at times even with no metamagics on. This ends by about lvl 12 for her, but must continue for newer characters.
    The horror, having to turn off metamagic lol. I thought that was the point of metamagic: save it for the big stuff. It's wild to me as a melee main seeing the modern meta of "yeah who turns them off" XD I remember having "panic button" spells with metas on and otherwise only using them for SLA's and bosses

    You can do pretty respectable damage at low levels using 5-10 SP spells without metamagic and then you can afford to throw them everywhere. Not as much oneshotting though
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  10. #10
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    according to the graph about 40% of players are in the 20-30 bracket. I assume they level in epic to eventually play at cap. 60% are in the 1-20 bracket. Some are doing heroics/racials TRs, some simply prefer to play heroic quests and some are leveling from 1 or 15 to play at cap. From that I think we can assume that 50% (very conservative) of players are playing at cap at some point. Your premisce that: 'So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant' is half right/half wrong since roughly half of players are either playing at cap or leveling to play at cap so its not irrelevant. I would never level if I had the option to start at 30 so I don't care about sorcs/alchemists performance at low level because they take me to cap faster and I'm pretty sure quite a few players think the same. You can always make lfms stating: no sors/alchemists if you have a problem with it. Remember how monks were nerfed in heroic a while ago? They were basically erased from the game. I do not enjoy playing casters but I sure hope they won't get nerfed in the same way.

  11. #11
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    Depending on the mob ... YES
    Fighters with CLEAVE can wipe a mob in 1 shot
    Warlocks with chain can wipe a mob in 1 shot
    A cleric or FS can wipe a mob in one shot with flame strike
    a BARD....yes a BARD can cast charm on a champion and that Champ will wipe the mob for him

    monks and rogues have difficulty wiping out a mob in one shot.
    but they can bypass them and or traps.

    feeling intimidated or something?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well that's only a partial answer to the question then. The tradeoff shouldnt ever totally go away - you should get more and more sustain as your caster gains progression, but once it hits 100% then you're basically all upside and no downside, and that puts it at an imbalance with melee. Unless you want to give melee so much power in PLs and Reaper that they can eventually start hitting as hard as a Meteor Shower over an unrestricted AOE every couple seconds too
    There are other trade-offs to be considered. My caster's defences etc are just fine in much of heroics, but start to become garbage. I get more sustain, but I also get more ... dead. Well, more often. At least in reaper.

    I do think SP levels/costs have gotten out of hand st the high water marks, with casters in most situations being able to run with meta magics on most of the time. It also takes skill and interest out of tbe equation if you don't have to nurse SP and judgewhen to tirn on the metas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    The horror, having to turn off metamagic lol. I thought that was the point of metamagic: save it for the big stuff. It's wild to me as a melee main seeing the modern meta of "yeah who turns them off" XD I remember having "panic button" spells with metas on and otherwise only using them for SLA's and bosses

    You can do pretty respectable damage at low levels using 5-10 SP spells without metamagic and then you can afford to throw them everywhere. Not as much oneshotting though
    Yes, metamagics ought to be something used in clutch moments, not something a caster can afford to have on all the time.

  14. #14
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    Well, it IS pretty fun. For the player, and any other players also blowing everything up.

    It is certainly mostly terrible for a party dynamic. Sometimes I switch to just CC especially in melee parties, and it still sucks, alch CC is so good, it is trivial in a different way - the melee are now just beating up statues the whole quest.

    Recently I have been rejected from a number of groups joining as alchemist. I don't blame anyone at all. Even though sometimes it's on my alt who is terrible, but they don't know that.

    But for sure it's a pretty bad group game dynamic a lot of the time.

    I think the real problem with alchs is just where you are on their power curve. If you're:
    - below their d20 window, they are mostly garbage.
    - within their d20 window, they can be fun in a party.
    - over their d20 window? No reason to have any other party member.

  15. #15
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:


    It is likely true that most are on the journey. As a point of reference though, of my 18 characters...

    1 is a perma 30 raid healer
    2 are in rotation with one at 30 and one leveling at all times.
    15 are bank toons. The bank toons are either level 10 or 20 (depending on what cap was when I started playing them.) Or 15 where I made an iconic banker. (Lots of people probably did and this is your spike at 15.)
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  16. #16
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So my question is simple. Is it out of line for a sorc or alc to hit for 3-6k non-crit AoE at level 15 and AoE 1 shot groups of mobs when a melee or ranged of the same level hits for <200 to a few mobs?
    Not really.

    But if you cast mass hold first, is it really one shotting the mobs? You are still running a rotation. (And don't forget Alch can't cast mass hold or anything that gives helpless from range.)

    If I cast displacement & cure light sla to spike green, then glue bomb, then single vial sla to drop green and prep orange, then drop flash freeze to apply helpless damage and spike orange, then drop multivial, obliteration and molotav for cleanup... that's a rotation (and probably not the best one). Its not one shotting, but people see the group go boom, but don't understand how you made it happen and then scream OP! OP!
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:



    This means that the large majority of the player base experiences sorcs and alcs while leveling. While leveling, sorcs and alcs can AoE 1 shot groups of mobs, even unbuffed without consumables or ship buffs, like this:



    That is Delayed Blast Fireball, hitting for 1d6+7 (10.5) per caster level. An Alchemist multivial hits for 4d6+8 (22) per caster level, and hits more than twice as hard, hitting for >6k AoE non-crit at level 15 on a well built caster. It doesn't really matter which one you play, both AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling. In contrast, a well-built level 15 melee such as the newly revamped charisma KoTC paladin hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to a few mobs with strike through:



    and a well-built level 15 ranged such as an inquisitor also hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to one or a few mobs in a line:



    So my question is simple. Is it out of line for a sorc or alc to hit for 3-6k non-crit AoE at level 15 and AoE 1 shot groups of mobs when a melee or ranged of the same level hits for <200 to a few mobs?
    God, I am so sick of Epeen posts - honestly - your numbers are off, your logic is flawed. Have you nothing better to do?

  18. #18
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    I kinda want to know what that spike of L26s is on Wayfinder though...its more than double the relative population at that level as every other server, but I cant think of a reason that many people would be parked at 26

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So the majority of players are leveling in DDO, and cap play and gear are largely irrelevant:



    This means that the large majority of the player base experiences sorcs and alcs while leveling. While leveling, sorcs and alcs can AoE 1 shot groups of mobs, even unbuffed without consumables or ship buffs, like this:



    That is Delayed Blast Fireball, hitting for 1d6+7 (10.5) per caster level. An Alchemist multivial hits for 4d6+8 (22) per caster level, and hits more than twice as hard, hitting for >6k AoE non-crit at level 15 on a well built caster. It doesn't really matter which one you play, both AoE 1 shot groups of mobs while leveling. In contrast, a well-built level 15 melee such as the newly revamped charisma KoTC paladin hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to a few mobs with strike through:



    and a well-built level 15 ranged such as an inquisitor also hits for <200 non-crit while leveling to one or a few mobs in a line:



    So my question is simple. Is it out of line for a sorc or alc to hit for 3-6k non-crit AoE at level 15 and AoE 1 shot groups of mobs when a melee or ranged of the same level hits for <200 to a few mobs?

    Fake news troll thread.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I kinda want to know what that spike of L26s is on Wayfinder though...its more than double the relative population at that level as every other server, but I cant think of a reason that many people would be parked at 26
    The Y-axis is percent of players. That spike on Wayfinder just means there was an entire full group questing at L26 :-)

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