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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    What? No, just balance changes lol.
    so fraud, gotcha.

  2. #42
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    so fraud, gotcha.
    At this late in the game, in general, change is expected with any new release, and nowhere does any class state "Not subject to update/change/review".
    Fraud would require something more radical: i.e removal of the class entirely.
    EULA covers a multitude of lesser sins.
    I'm starting to get jaded about this whole process- OP release, backend nerf- it's the proverbial mule and the carrot and I end up feeling like an ***.

  3. #43
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    All of the characters presented are roughly equal in progression. Characters less powerful will be less powerful, but that just increases the gap between melee/ranged and caster since a caster has a bunch of base spell damage and spell power from metamagics.
    I am going to call BS on this as I don't think you are attempting to show all classes in their best light. For example if you attack that same mob with your paladin you aren't going to simply swing your weapon. You will use two quick cleaves - holy retribution followed by avenging cleave which likely won't leave anything standing on the same difficulty your sorc is on.

    If your argument is that sorc can kill things faster on a low difficulty such as elite with bigger #s the entire community has known that for a long time.

    I also think the bonus AP is much more impactful for a dragonborn sorc vs. a bladeforged paladin since you can't get the dragonborn top tier racial tree and helpless damage boost at level 15 without it. So you are spending 18 points in dragonborn, 34 or so points in fire savant since this is spec'd for demo mode only and fireball sla doesn't help you prove your point, 23 points in falconry with probably 18 points from past lifes/tomes. You couldn't take the top tier dragonborn enhancements + bonus helpless damage without the past lifes.

    You pick dragonborn (although tiefling honestly is a better answer for leveling on a fire sorc) for max damage on a sorc and you pick bladeforged for self-healing/survivability. Apples to oranges builds.

    My money is on the paladin being able to complete R6 Gianthold Tor solo without dying more consistently on winged builds with equal power (and not using any exploits to skip the mobs spawned from lever). If you are comparing first life builds with no tomes my money is still on paladin to complete R1 solo without dying more consistently.
    Last edited by slarden; 01-11-2021 at 09:23 AM.
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  4. #44
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    so fraud, gotcha.
    Either you've stuck with DDO through a LOT of fraud (like Warlock's ES nerfs) or I'm missing something.

    Class balance =/= fraud, AFAICT.

    Fraud = wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

    Not sure how it's A) Wrongful or B) Criminal or C) Deception and also not sure how it'd result in 1) Financial or 2) Personal let alone 3) gain for SSG.

    Not even sure how it's deception when it would be posted in patch notes etc. If your argument is "the class is weaker than what I paid for" than you're arguing for SSG to only release classes as underpowered as you find all nerfs unethical. Except for F2P classes, I guess, so nerfing Sorc into oblivion is fine to you? I'd rather they try to aim for balance parity and buff/nerf as needed to hit their design goals.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  5. #45
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arminius View Post
    I don't really get the purpose of these kinds of threads. This sort of thing is inherent not just to DDO, but to PnP D&D and all fantasy and mythical literature, forever.

    You have to fight Lancelot, Merlin, or Robin Hood. Starting nnnnnnn-now! Go! Make your choice!

    I can't speak for you, but I know who I bloody well wouldn't choose.

    This sort of disparity between different kinds of power and weakness also occurs in real life. You have to fight Hans Guderian's XIX Corps at the height of its power in 1939-40, or the US 8th Air Force at the height of its power in 1945. Starting nnnnn-ow! Choose!

    The bottom line is, apples and oranges compare about as effectively as apples and oranges. I don't want to play a game in which my standardized pixelated widget does the same DPS as everyone else's standardized pixelated widget, you just mash a key and off they go, woo-hoo! And I'd be surprised if anyone who still loves DDO would either.

    I don't even know where to start really.

    1. The purpose of these threads it to highlight the ridiculousness of the current game and the frustration people are feeling over it. These threads keep popping up exactly because people are angry.
    2. This is a game, not real life. Many people like to play games to get a way from the real world.
    3. In a real life scenario, unlimited power would probably be the end of the world. Imagine WWII with Germany AND the US having nuclear weapons. I doubt any of us would be here today to play any game.
    4. We don't normally play games where we are the weakling. We play games where we are powerful. We play games were we ARE Lancelot, Merlin, or Robin Hood, not fighting them.
    5. A game needs boundaries or it is pointless. A game where you just push an "I win" button to win isn't going to be well received.
    6. Your comment "And I'd be surprised if anyone who still loves DDO", can be taken in many ways. I used to love DDO. I do not love what it has turned into. Classes and builds and different styles and weapons used to make a difference. Now almost all of the variety and configurations that DDO has built into its classes are moot. Almost ALL of the things you can do to make a build unique will lead to a build that is not able to keep up. As these super classes rise the game becomes unplayable unless you ARE one of these super classes.

  6. #46
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Maybe I will make my own game. There will be two classes, sorcerers and others.

    You enter a dungeon as a sorcerer and cast the one spell "Kill" that does 100000 points of damage to everything in the dungeon. Then you get 100,000,000 XP, you level up 10 times, and you get a reward that doubles the amount of damage you can do. There will be a chest and in the chest will either be another 100,000,000 XP, another 10 levels, or an items that doubles your damage again. It is completely random.

    I will put the end chest right near the entrance, so you don't actually need to go through the dungeon. There definitely wont be any ransack or daily run-through penalties. There will be thousands of dungeons, but since you only need the one room, they will be pretty easy to build.

    And, most of all, this is actually the important part, there will be a leader-board so you can see who is at a higher level than you. That way, if you are 10th you can just keep leveling till you become number 1.

    So the game becomes, who can get into a dungeon, cast kill and get out the fastest. You can play the OTHER class of course, but you simply have to wait in the first room until a sorcerer comes in to kill everything. You get the same rewards though.

    I could make that game, or just wait a few years.

    Read through the above again and you will see that it isn't much different than the game today.

    Really the only difference is moving the end chest to the first room. Some of you would really like that in today's game I think. You could enter, get the XP when the sorc finishes AND get the end reward without even having to bother to run through the dungeon.

    Removing ransack and daily run-through is different, but there are people calling for that.

    There isn't actually a leader-board, but people still compare how many reaper points they have, this would just make it public. I think many of you would like this too.

    My game will only be $1 for a yearly subscription, but you will have to pay one astral shard per dungeon. Shards are only 1 cent a piece though, so it probably wont break the bank unless you spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for years on end playing just to stay on top. But who would do that?
    Last edited by TedSandyman; 01-11-2021 at 11:29 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Caster vs. melee vs. ranged DPS is a relevant question but you are cherry picking your numbers, so this won't lead anywhere.

    First, damage != DPS, melee/ranged have higher attack speed + double shot, and I don't think that 200 number is on held mobs.

    Second, calling at cap performance irrelevant is absurd. Plenty of people play at cap permanently, and many people doing PLs play at cap between their lives, or aim to play at cap after their lives. If play at cap was an unbalanced mess, many wouldn't even bother with PLs to begin with.
    Yes, OP is cherry picking numbers and by he looks of it gear as well.
    Put a (E)SoS on that paladin and a Ratcatcher/Epic Storm on that Inquisitive.

    Edit: And yes, casters do seem to have more options available throughout the levels to keep their numbers on par, where as melee/ranged seems to have one best option only making it depending.
    Last edited by LightBear; 01-11-2021 at 11:41 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post

    It doesn't matter if it is epic or heroic leveling, and it doesn't matter what gear you have, a sorc or alc is stronger than a melee or ranged.
    Most of these style threads always cherry pick builds, instances, quests (*cough Grim), saying the same thing. But not really being truthful.

    If they are so much stronger, why aren't the raid lfms asking for 1 tank, 2 healers, 9 casters?

    And stop using the same pictures for all your threads. They are getting stale. Respectfully.......
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Most of these style threads always cherry pick builds, instances, quests (*cough Grim), saying the same thing. But not really being truthful.

    If they are so much stronger, why aren't the raid lfms asking for 1 tank, 2 healers, 9 casters?

    And stop using the same pictures for all your threads. They are getting stale. Respectfully.......
    Are you saying that Sorcs and Alc don't AoE 1 shot things while leveling?

    Raids are run at cap, and pug raids generally don't generally ask for anything since they are run at a low difficulty, Pug raid leaders are just happy if the raid fills. There isn't enough cap play total including raids to be that relevant. This is a thread about leveling.

    Let's take those pictures down then, since you find them stale. But even you have to admit a Sorc or Alc leveling is stronger than an ESoS melee.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-11-2021 at 12:40 PM.

  10. #50
    Community Member SurlyYuri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Maybe I will make my own game. There will be two classes, sorcerers and others.

    You enter a dungeon as a sorcerer and cast the one spell "Kill" that does 100000 points of damage to everything in the dungeon. Then you get 100,000,000 XP, you level up 10 times, and you get a reward that doubles the amount of damage you can do. There will be a chest and in the chest will either be another 100,000,000 XP, another 10 levels, or an items that doubles your damage again. It is completely random.

    I will put the end chest right near the entrance, so you don't actually need to go through the dungeon. There definitely wont be any ransack or daily run-through penalties. There will be thousands of dungeons, but since you only need the one room, they will be pretty easy to build.

    And, most of all, this is actually the important part, there will be a leader-board so you can see who is at a higher level than you. That way, if you are 10th you can just keep leveling till you become number 1.

    So the game becomes, who can get into a dungeon, cast kill and get out the fastest. You can play the OTHER class of course, but you simply have to wait in the first room until a sorcerer comes in to kill everything. You get the same rewards though.

    I could make that game, or just wait a few years.

    Read through the above again and you will see that it isn't much different than the game today.

    Really the only difference is moving the end chest to the first room. Some of you would really like that in today's game I think. You could enter, get the XP when the sorc finishes AND get the end reward without even having to bother to run through the dungeon.

    Removing ransack and daily run-through is different, but there are people calling for that.

    There isn't actually a leader-board, but people still compare how many reaper points they have, this would just make it public. I think many of you would like this too.

    My game will only be $1 for a yearly subscription, but you will have to pay one astral shard per dungeon. Shards are only 1 cent a piece though, so it probably wont break the bank unless you spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for years on end playing just to stay on top. But who would do that?

    Except for the monetary part, that sounds a lot like Rolemaster.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Are you saying that Sorcs and Alc don't AoE 1 shot things while leveling?

    .
    I am AoE one shotting things in heroic on several other builds, including Warlocks and Wizards and Druids and....


    The key is fairplay here:

    - A lot of content is designed to be played at level ( while the bonuses apply at +2, a lot of players choose easy over challenging since they get the same reward faster, but it is a player choice)
    - A lot of content was designed several years ago for fractions of todays playerchar attr values
    - Progress is often a bonus/gift, and as such not factored into elite and r1 game ( tho i lean to think r1 is already factoring in a little bit of past lives, at least from some higher end heroic content)
    - Gear values, especially new ones are not factored into content at equal levels, PRR, MRR, and ~Power multipliers
    - Spell attacks are intentionally stronger than melee and ranged as they were imagined to have significant costs associated ( I agree that this limitation is not perfect, i can never be in DDO unless some dark wizard engineer one day breaks and rewires the whole game, risking to lose a lot of players in the same process). Spell attacks roughly matched against martial attack sequences. As others pointed out there are several options to build melee THF attacks that out dps spells.
    - Reaper is generally very unbalanced - as it is a game mode as much as a difficulty setting, melee are relatively worse off as they take all the punches with limited recovery, while ranged and casters WASDs off the majority of hits, while enjoying improved recovery toolkits.
    - It IS DDO after all, much of the challenge is in binary gotchas, "-do you haz Deathblock and Shield spell, yo?"
    - The game has a shaky history to scale chars up into Epics, many characters have backloaded progression, or simply are bad at leveling until they reach 20, then they do a colossal jump in power vs content.

  12. #52

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    Minimal insight and lazy analysis from OP. At this point, any responses are just feeding the troll.
    DPS solves all problems. R10 or bust. Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi

  13. #53
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Are you saying that Sorcs and Alc don't AoE 1 shot things while leveling?

    Raids are run at cap, and pug raids generally don't generally ask for anything since they are run at a low difficulty, Pug raid leaders are just happy if the raid fills. There isn't enough cap play total including raids to be that relevant. This is a thread about leveling.

    Let's take those pictures down then, since you find them stale. But even you have to admit a Sorc or Alc leveling is stronger than an ESoS melee.
    You cherry pick, I cherry pick. I think you get the points.

    And please don't pick 1 or 2 classes and say they are awesome in heroics. That is true for all classes. Thx.

    Your last statement might be true for some players but not all.
    Mothergoose - Kardinal - Bunks

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    You cherry pick, I cherry pick. I think you get the points.
    Updated OP, to show swashbuckling balance standard vs. THF vs. Inquisitive vs. Arcane. Arcane picture iis unbuffed, and also without the benefit of reaper trees, guild buffs, or consumables. The pictures are cherry picked to contrast a weaker arcane than in actual game play, compared to swashbuckling, THF, and inquisitive as fully buffed in actual play.

    Also updated OP, because people didn't realize how insignificant cap play really was to show both character population and dungeon entrance by level.

  15. #55
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    people didn't realize how insignificant cap play really was to show both character population and dungeon entrance by level.
    It varies -- I tend to leave my characters capped a long time and will often ignore my one un-capped to play raids or other things at cap. Why? I like playing my full build. I dislike playing less than the full build. I deliberately and strenuously avoid heroics for exactly this reason.

    'Course another reason I avoid heroics is because I hate spending a day after TR fixing up my character into a playable state again because the UI has no means of saving or storing builds and inventory organization. Then there's the problem you posted.

    It's not a sorc/alch problem. It's a "heroic is easy" problem. When I first played the game, I leveled solo without guild buffs on (of course) an ungeared bad build. I thought Heroic Elite was the perfect difficulty for this and that's what I leveled in exclusively from L1 to L20. That's a serious problem when the first 2/3 of a game is so easy a total newbie can solo in what is supposedly difficult group content.

    I think I actually posted on it back then suggesting that casual, normal, and hard be removed from heroic play and the current "elite" be renamed "normal" with new more difficult scalars added for hard and elite (and thus r1 also becoming harder as it would scale off the new elite).

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Updated OP, to show swashbuckling balance standard vs. THF vs. Inquisitive vs. Arcane. Arcane picture iis unbuffed, and also without the benefit of reaper trees, guild buffs, or consumables. The pictures are cherry picked to contrast a weaker arcane than in actual game play, compared to swashbuckling, THF, and inquisitive as fully buffed in actual play.
    If you're hitting your DC targets, the reaper trees only barely help arcane damage (up to +12 USP at 15). The 6 MP, +2 hit/damage, and +3 stat (1-6 damage) help melees a bit more than that 12 USP, but it's still not a massive boost.

    I don't see the EK spellsword or stance on your Sorc buff bar, and based on your past builds it seems very likely you've picked up Falconry T4 for the extra helpless damage. That's a +55% boost from what Inquisitives can get on their own, and prior to Dire Charge most melees don't have consistent AOE CC to induce that. While your "Call to Soundburst" builds apparently work ok in heroics for fully twinked-out melees (such as your Swash), they're not really representative of melee builds. The Bladeforged Paladin you've thrown into the mix can't do that at all, but it can walk up to a pack of mobs and obliterate them with Holy Retribution just as a Sorc would.

    This thread and its various updates fall victim to a classic DDO blunder: you're focusing on the damage rather than the dps. Burst damage is more useful in heroics because a) there are fewer boss beatdowns and b) it's easier to hit one-shot numbers. If you fall just short of those numbers or don't quite have no-fail DCs, things get more complicated. You can hit those targets, so congrats on your big numbers, I guess...?

    If you really want to compare apples to apples, show your numbers for a) Holy Retribution, b) a 6 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 3 Bard using Sniper Shot with MoM, and c) DBF / Meteor Swarm / on non-helpless targets

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by arminius View Post
    I don't really get the purpose of these kinds of threads.
    There are a few typical motivations behind these threads.

    The most common reason is jealousy. The OP will have joined a group with someone who knows what they are doing and will just be left in the dust. The ensuing rage results in a forum post demanding an immediate nerf to a particular class, to multi-classing, reaper, past lives etc etc.

    A less common reason is the humble brag. Someone has in fact managed to put a reasonably good build together and wants to preen on the forums about how good they are. A lot of times that person isn’t even remotely as good as they think they are, which is why they come looking for validation in the first place.

    Another reason, is that the OP has genuine ill-will against SSG. They wish harm on them due to some perceived harm they feel was perpetrated on them through moderation or banning. They will pick a popular class and demand a nerf of it. SSG, unfortunately, falls for this a lot. They will nerf the popular class and then lose a bunch of players. The OP then gets to brag in alternate venues about how the game is dying through self-inflicted wounds.

    Then there is also a class of people who just get turned on by trolling everyone with nerf demands. They think SSG is gonna love them more or something, and they love the howls of protest they elicit. It fills some kind of void in their empty lives I guess.

    Couldn’t tell you which one this is.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bracelet View Post
    There are a few typical motivations behind these threads.
    conveniently skipping over the most obvious option. some people would like to play a more balanced game. 15 years from now i wouldn't mind at all if i could look back on 3 decades of DDO and say to myself, the game is more balanced each year than any year before.

  19. #59
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    It boggles the mind how one player is on a crusade to make Sorcs and Alchemists as bad as Warlocks using the exact same nerfs. (And nerfing all other casters, including Warlocks (again), Caster Druids and Electric Arties who are already too underpowered.)

    There are no good single target nukes in the game. None. Casters throw AoE nukes in their rotation because of this lack of single target nukes. This means that, while they may have "sufficient" strength for AoE, trying to kill a 65k - 175k hitpoint redname is a spell draining snoozefest, and raid bosses are laughable. If you nerf spellpower sources, it will gut the very same casters SSG buffed a year ago because no one was playing them.

    How is it not a better idea to implement the same balancing mechanic they already use for insta-kills, which are really no different than hard hitting nukes? Slap a max number of targets on AoE damage spells. Let them hit hard, but cap them at 6 targets, just like SSG did with:

    Wail of the Banshee (6)
    Circle of Death (4)
    Mass Frog (6)
    Undeath to Death (4)
    Everything is Nothing (6) --- and please, rename that to "Six Things are Nothing", because it's fraudulent as it stands.
    Implosion (5?)

    Don't gut a classes ability to be functional in raids without throwing heaps of trivial trash just to make them feel useful. Allow casters to deal damage, don't create all new spells that you second guess and slap ridiculous cooldowns on, but don't let them gather multiple trash packs and clear them all with a couple of clicks. You've capped strikethrough at 4 targets. Do the same for AoE nukes (I'd suggest 6 targets) and call it a day. You can more effectively balance damage from there.
    Last edited by Zretch; 01-22-2021 at 06:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    There are no good single target nukes in the game. None. Casters throw AoE nukes in their rotation because of this lack of single target nukes. This means that, while they may have "sufficient" strength for AoE, trying to kill a 65k - 175k hitpoint redname is a spell draining snoozefest, and raid bosses are laughable. If you nerf spellpower sources, it will gut the very same casters SSG buffed a year ago because no one was playing them.

    How is it not a better idea to implement the same balancing mechanic they already use for insta-kills, which are really no different than hard hitting nukes? Slap a max number of targets on AoE damage spells.
    You know that sounds like a very interesting idea. Allow revamped AoE nukes to hit as hard as they do, but treat them as AoE instant kills and target cap them. Maybe even a toggled stance that allows one to swap from regular to a focused fireball, like IPS and archer's focus. Regular would be uncapped targets at 1d6, and focused would be a limited amount of targets at 1d6+3. Or maybe even look at metamagic usage being coupled with target limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    Don't gut a classes ability to be functional...
    I didn't suggest any such gutting. I was simply starting the initial step of finding out what people think, to educate and establish baselines of where archtypes are and where players are playing, and to ask for ideas and thoughts, like the interesting one you had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppastump View Post
    No. Apples and Oranges. Even setting aside finite spell points, less hp, armor, etc... yadda yadda yadda it is not out of line because this is a game where the players play against the game not other players. That means there is no need for SSG to create a level playing field (not that one could ever be made), rather SSG needs to make it possible for players to enjoy the game in as many ways as possible.

    Thanks for asking, I hope it answered your questions.
    Polite, honest, clear, and concise! Yes, excellent answer! Thank you!
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-22-2021 at 08:12 PM.

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