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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    At some point you have to ask yourself if it is worth rebuilding an engine on a 15 year old car. Sure, rebuilding the engine will probably allow the car to run longer, but if it is at 15 years, the trans is probably shot, the axel might be on its way out and frankly the cars frame is probably more than half way rusted through. Not to mention the continued maintenance of tires, shocks, brakes, oil changes, ect ect ect......

    So you have to ask yourself, is it worth rebuilding that engine, or just running on it till it dies?

    Bunk

    P.S. bear with the analogy
    while your analogy makes me feel a bit uncomfortable i agree with you....the solution really here is to add additional hardware resources and let the engine ride

  2. #42
    Community Member Cavalier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinfire1 View Post
    I got in a long debate with a bunch of laymen on the discord who were convinced there was no way to fix it.

    Having worked with a wide variety of different products, in different architectures and environments, and different industries, I can tell you without qualification, that increasing system resources will ALWAYS help performance issues that are server-bound. Period. End of story. There's no debate to be had. It's like asking whether pouring water into a cup makes it fuller. Only someone disconnected from reality would argue the point.

    Does that cost money? Yes. But the developer salary necessary to fix the underlying issues is BY FAR more expensive than hardware. You can buy a lot of serious hardware for $50,000. A developer with total cost-of-employment of $100k MIGHT be able to fix the issues by addressing code refactoring over the course of a year. Or perhaps not. If they are virtualizing several servers one a single large physical server, they need to build a second physical server of equal or greater resources, and migrate half the servers off to the new box. Rate the servers by average peak playerbase, and make sure the peak playerbase is balanced across both physical boxes after the migration. Building the server would take no more than a week. Migrating the VM's of the servers would take a while, you would need a longer downtime, clearly telegraphed to users weeks in advance, but no longer than 8 hours.

    Total cost between hardware and IT work, probably less than $75k.

    Don't get me wrong, $75k is $75k. But this is a problem that is costing them money already. Why not spend the money to make money?
    Wow, you are really looking at the issue from a simplistic point of view. While upgrading hardware will result in an increase in performance, the true underlying issue here is the engine.

    You have to think about it this way.

    It doesn't matter if you have a brand new 3 lane highway going through your city.....if only one of the 3 lanes is being used, you still have a bottleneck. It also doesn't matter if you increase the speed limit from 100 kph to 150 kph, you are still limited by the same situation, you are running on one single lane.

    The engine was written over 15 years ago and has it's roots in Asheron's Call I believe. LotRO and DDO use a modified version of this engine and both have different forks from the same engine, which is why you can't bring optimizations from one game to the other.

    The DDO team aren't stupid, despite what most forums warriors will have you believe. They KNOW a lot more about the source of lag than we can possibly imagine and they know that a quick fix of new hardware will not solve the issue, at least in the longer term. If it was just a simple solution of throwing money at the problem to buy new hardware, then they could easily do that. Release 1000 Season Passes at 300$ like last time and bang, within a week, you've raised 300,000 $ to buy that hardware.

    But the issue is that they KNOW it will not solve the issue and that until they are able to optimize the code, upgrade the engine to better perform and to fix the bottlenecks, which are not hardware (as you seem to think), lag will be something that will happen.

    The game has fundamentally changed in 15 years. We have more effects now, way more stuff stored in our inventories and banks and a lot was added to the game in order to respond to the wishes of the players, but the engine was always pushed harder and harder without ever changing it significantly to adapt and deliver the experience we are entitled to.

    Yes I hate lag. Yes it affects me. No it hasn't been too bad on Khyber for a while, at least for me. I've encountered lag bursts however, just not to the extente of making the game unplayable.

    I want them to fix the lag, I want them to give us more for our money, I want them to give me better graphics and UI, I want everything you want, and maybe even more. I want them to do it right. I want them to fix it properly. I don't want a band-aid on an arterial wound. I think they can do it.

    I'd love to hear from them directly about their plans to tackle the issue to lag and their timeline, but we won't get that, at least not to our liking and I understand. If they say it will take 30 days to fix the lag, we'll be there with pitchforks on day 31 if they haven't finished.

    My feeling is that this will be adressed in the 2021 Producers Letter, but I have no insight into that, just a feeling.

  3. #43
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    100% agree

    This game needs a massive overhaul in the game engine. I don't care how it is done but something "big" needs to take place. You can scrap it and start over or transplant the mechanics. I am so sick of dying because the game stopped responding at the wrong moment. Another huge annoyance is loading screens that don't load. Simply stupid considering current hardware capabilities of any computer built in the last 10 years. Eventually you will run out of expansions to sell when there are no more people willing to log in and spend 5 minutes on a loading screen and another 5 minutes waiting for the quest window to pop up only to die halfway through a quest because the game freezes.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Red_Knight's Avatar
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    At this point, it would probably take an entirely new game engine to fix the lag the way everyone wants. That's not really something they can just roll out in the game as it is. They've been pushing the aging game engine harder and harder with the last few expansions. Quests and zones look the best they ever have. But I suspect they're reaching the limits of DDO's game engine. It would likely take a DDO2 to be able to fix the issues that have cropped up over time. But to be honest, there probably isn't enough of a market for a DDO2.
    Finding ones past, present, and future in the threads of destiny.

  5. #45
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Not mine. Don't get me wrong I want the lag fixed as much as the next player but I still love playing DDO.

    I listened to Severlin's 'Ask me anything' session and the lag is looking at.
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  6. #46
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    But to be honest, there probably isn't enough of a market for a DDO2.
    Do you fault the IP for not being the kind that naturally draws people to it or is it the number of bridges Turbine/SSG has burned because of lag and other poor game performance issues (e.g. exploits)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
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  7. #47
    Community Member Cavalier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Do you fault the IP for not being the kind that naturally draws people to it or is it the number of bridges Turbine/SSG has burned because of lag and other poor game performance issues (e.g. exploits)?
    Yes.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    At this point, it would probably take an entirely new game engine to fix the lag the way everyone wants. That's not really something they can just roll out in the game as it is. They've been pushing the aging game engine harder and harder with the last few expansions. Quests and zones look the best they ever have. But I suspect they're reaching the limits of DDO's game engine. It would likely take a DDO2 to be able to fix the issues that have cropped up over time. But to be honest, there probably isn't enough of a market for a DDO2.
    This is speculation on your part. Let the devs address what's technically feasible, the players are raising the issue to make their priorities clear.

    We don't know for sure where the lag bottlenecks are. I'm not sure even the devs have put in enough time & expertise to know where they are. They've only mentioned two specifically before form what I recall: server-side pathing and client-side buffs/effects. I think they said they would look at the latter this year, but we don't know the time frame and effect of this change.

    I played in the first year after release and lag has definitely been worse in the last few years than it was then. I can't speak for the first month of release, but if what you said is true, they obviously fixed that because they recognized that crippling lag was a huge problem.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-05-2021 at 02:28 PM.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I love this game and I consider myself lucky to have had the years of enjoyment it provided.

    However, for the past several months now, when I find myself wanting to play this game, I quickly lose this desire when I remember how unplayable DDO has become. I just don't want to deal with it anymore, so I don't log on.

    I don't know why this has become so bad, but the reaper enhancement points constantly applying and stripping is the easiest thing to reach for, since we feel it every.single.time.we.run.a.quest. What's the detriment to just leaving these on? Is it that we will ROFLSTOMP normal or hard raids even more than we do now? If that's true, is that a more severe offense than the unplayable lag it is otherwise causing, maybe?

    I don't care about the new raid. I don't care about the new classic pack. I don't care about the destiny revamp. I don't care about the level cap raise. I don't care about any other piece of news you have for future production if it does not provide a smoother gaming experience than we have now.

    Lag on GLand is unbearable. Constant freezes for 10-15 secs... why don't they address this??

  10. #50
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    Lag on GLand is unbearable. Constant freezes for 10-15 secs... why don't they address this??
    They will...server restarts tomorrow!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
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  11. #51
    Community Member Red_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    This is speculation on your part. Let the devs address what's technically feasible, the players are raising the issue to make their priorities clear.

    We don't know for sure where the lag bottlenecks are. I'm not sure even the devs have put in enough time & expertise to know where they are. They've only mentioned two specifically before form what I recall: server-side pathing and client-side buffs/effects. I think they said they would look at the latter this year, but we don't know the time frame and effect of this change.

    I played in the first year after release and lag has definitely been worse in the last few years than it was then. I can't speak for the first month of release, but if what you said is true, they obviously fixed that because they recognized that crippling lag was a huge problem.
    Yes, it's speculation. But it's speculation based on the fact the lag came about from upgrading to Win 8, then later Win 10, and the various updates to Win 10. It's based on looking at how other games from the same time frame run on a Win 10 machine. And it's based on noticing that DDO's performance seems to take a hit when I get newer graphics cards that use architecture the developers had no idea would exist back in 2006. Yeah, the new graphics cards and better PC overall can run on higher settings. But there is also a lot more lag now then there was when I was running a Win 8 machine. Which was more lag then when running XP and later Vista. Vista, by the way, had chugged if I dared raise graphics above the bare minimum even when I upgraded my graphics card.
    Finding ones past, present, and future in the threads of destiny.

  12. #52
    Community Member Amoneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I love this game and I consider myself lucky to have had the years of enjoyment it provided.

    However, for the past several months now, when I find myself wanting to play this game, I quickly lose this desire when I remember how unplayable DDO has become. I just don't want to deal with it anymore, so I don't log on.

    I don't know why this has become so bad, but the reaper enhancement points constantly applying and stripping is the easiest thing to reach for, since we feel it every.single.time.we.run.a.quest. What's the detriment to just leaving these on? Is it that we will ROFLSTOMP normal or hard raids even more than we do now? If that's true, is that a more severe offense than the unplayable lag it is otherwise causing, maybe?

    I don't care about the new raid. I don't care about the new classic pack. I don't care about the destiny revamp. I don't care about the level cap raise. I don't care about any other piece of news you have for future production if it does not provide a smoother gaming experience than we have now.
    The lag has indeed been horrendous recently, moving to even cheaper servers was a crazy move imo. I totally agree with your suggested fix, a few of us have said the same thing, surely it's preferable to losing players to lag frustration?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    At this point, it would probably take an entirely new game engine to fix the lag the way everyone wants. That's not really something they can just roll out in the game as it is. They've been pushing the aging game engine harder and harder with the last few expansions. Quests and zones look the best they ever have. But I suspect they're reaching the limits of DDO's game engine. It would likely take a DDO2 to be able to fix the issues that have cropped up over time. But to be honest, there probably isn't enough of a market for a DDO2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    Yes, it's speculation. But it's speculation based on the fact the lag came about from upgrading to Win 8, then later Win 10, and the various updates to Win 10. It's based on looking at how other games from the same time frame run on a Win 10 machine. And it's based on noticing that DDO's performance seems to take a hit when I get newer graphics cards that use architecture the developers had no idea would exist back in 2006. Yeah, the new graphics cards and better PC overall can run on higher settings. But there is also a lot more lag now then there was when I was running a Win 8 machine. Which was more lag then when running XP and later Vista. Vista, by the way, had chugged if I dared raise graphics above the bare minimum even when I upgraded my graphics card.
    This all sounds like loosely connected nonsense. I would stop speculating.

  14. #54
    Community Member airbornerangers's Avatar
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    Default lag

    my 2 copper here, been here since week 1, so my only suggestion to ssg/turbine, which is to say the same peeps running it into the ground now as then. plz even in your god mode, take all the devs,dms and whoever else in your company has a character and run to hot too handle on norm! can your complete it?

    so to get around people calling your company what it is, tur+bine cant be allowed any more?
    thtasselhoff completionist vladimar lvl 20 tr barb thenabler lvl 20 cleric carthoris lvl 20tr wiz solestinger lvl 20 bard darksnemisis lvl 20 cleric gwylimn lvl 20 cleric thufar lvl tr arti ceer mutt tr mutt lindenavery lvl 20fvs hergromm lvl 29wf barb
    khyber gerty lvl 16 cleric mephistoles lvl 16 sorc

  15. #55
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    They will...server restarts tomorrow!

    Them turning off 2 of the 3 events running tomorrow will probably have a bigger effect on reducing lag than the restart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I love this game and I consider myself lucky to have had the years of enjoyment it provided.

    However, for the past several months now, when I find myself wanting to play this game, I quickly lose this desire when I remember how unplayable DDO has become. I just don't want to deal with it anymore, so I don't log on.

    I don't know why this has become so bad, but the reaper enhancement points constantly applying and stripping is the easiest thing to reach for, since we feel it every.single.time.we.run.a.quest. What's the detriment to just leaving these on? Is it that we will ROFLSTOMP normal or hard raids even more than we do now? If that's true, is that a more severe offense than the unplayable lag it is otherwise causing, maybe?

    I don't care about the new raid. I don't care about the new classic pack. I don't care about the destiny revamp. I don't care about the level cap raise. I don't care about any other piece of news you have for future production if it does not provide a smoother gaming experience than we have now.
    Sadly, this is becoming a more common theme. In the past three months, I've seen more multi-year veterans on Ghallanda quit the game than in the whole year prior. The two reasons they've consistently given when saying their goodbyes were the lag and how lackluster Feywild was (no raid, mass gear tetris for just for sidegrades, etc.).

  17. #57
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    Yes, it's speculation. But it's speculation based on the fact the lag came about from upgrading to Win 8, then later Win 10, and the various updates to Win 10. It's based on looking at how other games from the same time frame run on a Win 10 machine. And it's based on noticing that DDO's performance seems to take a hit when I get newer graphics cards that use architecture the developers had no idea would exist back in 2006. Yeah, the new graphics cards and better PC overall can run on higher settings. But there is also a lot more lag now then there was when I was running a Win 8 machine. Which was more lag then when running XP and later Vista. Vista, by the way, had chugged if I dared raise graphics above the bare minimum even when I upgraded my graphics card.
    I dont see anything video card or OS related. The game performs equally poorly on an old Vista/7 dual boot machine with integrated graphics and an AMD phenom processor as it does on a Win10 i9 machine with a dual 3080 set up. We have multiple systems set up for A/V, some of which we purchased multiple times so we could have them at different studio locations, so we can also reasonably rule out IP connectivity.

    Roughly 2 years ago the game ran fine even on our toasters. We'd get the occasional lag spike like everyone else does, but not anything like what we are experiencing currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble breathing here. I'm laughing so **** hard. You think the lag DDO currently has makes the game unplayable? Oh you sweet summer child, you have no idea how bad the lag has been at times. Back when the game first launched it lagged so badly in public areas that you could spend a half hour or more just going from the Leaky Dingy to the Information is Key quest entrance. Once it took me an hour to go from the Wayward Lobster tavern to a quest entrance door for Kobolds' New Ringleader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  18. #58
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    On Sarlona I mainly notice lag during raids and more recently with any sort of load screen or zoning.

    The raid lag is annoying and drives people to run a lower difficulty than they would like to ensure survival through lag spikes.

    The load screen and zoning lag is also annoying and impacts me more, but I've gotten used to it and least it doesn't cause me to fail or die during quests. The chat issue is a really a pain for pug raids (where there isn't a discord) and it seems related to the load screen problem since they were introduced at the same time - during the data center changes this summer.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Knight View Post
    Yes, it's speculation. But it's speculation based on the fact the lag came about from upgrading to Win 8, then later Win 10, and the various updates to Win 10. It's based on looking at how other games from the same time frame run on a Win 10 machine. And it's based on noticing that DDO's performance seems to take a hit when I get newer graphics cards that use architecture the developers had no idea would exist back in 2006. Yeah, the new graphics cards and better PC overall can run on higher settings. But there is also a lot more lag now then there was when I was running a Win 8 machine. Which was more lag then when running XP and later Vista. Vista, by the way, had chugged if I dared raise graphics above the bare minimum even when I upgraded my graphics card.
    I could almost accept your speculation as well-founded if first, the Devs hadn't spent years denying lag existed at all and second; that once we called them out on it, they then spent years blaming the lag on our 'supposedly' garbage home computers and local internet providers.

    The truth is out there from the financial reports- they make tons of money, they just refuse to reinvest any of it on decent equipment/tech people to reduce lag for us. Here's hoping the Swedes have a better customer service mindset.

    Again, nothing directed at the poster just quoting for context. We need to keep in mind the history of interaction we have had with Turbine/SSG over the decades. They lost any benefit of the doubt years ago.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho-sa View Post
    I could almost accept your speculation as well-founded if first, the Devs hadn't spent years denying lag existed at all...
    Lol, developers gaslighting their users has been a thing since card punch days.

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