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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'm actually looking for something that would compliment profane stats, attack, and damage. This is (currently) in the fall set but it's not a caster item.
    Ok. I was figuring you were looking to replace the magical efficiency with something similar. How about making it an updated version of the Ring of Prowess by giving it melee power 10 or 12?

  2. #282
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am just really wary of potentially causing the death knell for LGS. If I release LGS 2: Literally Better Than LGS, people will stop running lshroud.

    If there's a far easier way of achieving a lesser but still substantial amount of %hp that doesn't require months of dedicated grind of a single raid, I feel it's a net positive change.
    I understand your point, and I don’t disagree. However, a solution must exist to maintain the value of LGS, but still offer tanks an equally valuable incentive to wear Feywild stuff.

    My guild has recently been trying to complete R10 KT. While I realize I’m in the extreme minority of DDO players, I still think my play style should be considered. On that difficulty, Kor Kaza deals 3500 to 4500 physical damage, give or take. My tank currently sits around 8k with a 5 piece LGS set, allowing me to take 2-3 hits before I’m dead. Losing 16% hit points is not an option for me.

    I don’t want to invalidate LGS. I just want options like everyone else. I want to feel free to wear other stuff. I proposed allowing additional LGS augments to continue adding 2% HP on top of the Winter Set Bonus. This would allow tanks to wear the Winter set AND increase their HP further, if needed, which also maintains the validity of LGS. If this isn’t mechanically feasible, can we think of something else?
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    Ok. I was figuring you were looking to replace the magical efficiency with something similar. How about making it an updated version of the Ring of Prowess by giving it melee power 10 or 12?
    There's a reason we have never done that, even though players keep asking us to do so.
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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    I understand your point, and I don’t disagree. However, a solution must exist to maintain the value of LGS, but still offer tanks an equally valuable incentive to wear Feywild stuff.

    My guild has recently been trying to complete R10 KT. While I realize I’m in the extreme minority of DDO players, I still think my play style should be considered. On that difficulty, Kor Kaza deals 3500 to 4500 physical damage, give or take. My tank currently sits around 8k with a 5 piece LGS set, allowing me to take 2-3 hits before I’m dead. Losing 16% hit points is not an option for me.

    I don’t want to invalidate LGS. I just want options like everyone else. I want to feel free to wear other stuff. I proposed allowing additional LGS augments to continue adding 2% HP on top of the Winter Set Bonus. This would allow tanks to wear the Winter set AND increase their HP further, if needed, which also maintains the validity of LGS. If this isn’t mechanically feasible, can we think of something else?
    They are better off adding damage absorption at T5 class defensive tree than continue boosting HP. When the time come and there is a level increase, people will want even more hp boost in future content. Some enhancement and mechanic in the game needs to be change.

    Asking for 30 to 35% hp in winter set is a good compromise for people that don't have the time nor man power to grind out LGS. LGS equipment stat offer things not available in most normal situation - Unconscious range, 95 elemental resist. people will continue to use LGS if they have them.
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-23-2020 at 03:06 PM.

  5. #285
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'm actually looking for something that would compliment profane stats, attack, and damage. This is (currently) in the fall set but it's not a caster item.
    Profane Seeker? Profane Armor-Piercing?

    Then I wouldn't want it to be Fall lololol. How about Deception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicsoul View Post
    I understand your point, and I don’t disagree. However, a solution must exist to maintain the value of LGS, but still offer tanks an equally valuable incentive to wear Feywild stuff.

    My guild has recently been trying to complete R10 KT. While I realize I’m in the extreme minority of DDO players, I still think my play style should be considered. On that difficulty, Kor Kaza deals 3500 to 4500 physical damage, give or take. My tank currently sits around 8k with a 5 piece LGS set, allowing me to take 2-3 hits before I’m dead. Losing 16% hit points is not an option for me.

    I don’t want to invalidate LGS. I just want options like everyone else. I want to feel free to wear other stuff. I proposed allowing additional LGS augments to continue adding 2% HP on top of the Winter Set Bonus. This would allow tanks to wear the Winter set AND increase their HP further, if needed, which also maintains the validity of LGS. If this isn’t mechanically feasible, can we think of something else?
    I'm not saying your playstyle should be ignored, but once y'all complete R10 KT will it still be as large of a concern? When next year you're trying for (say) R8 THTH and (say) Fire Resist gets more important, will you be pushing for a Fire Absorb set bonus? Frankly I don't think loot for an entire expansion should be balanced around one guild running one raid at one difficulty. Sorry. Your case is probably the niche case where HP is the best option, and it seems reasonable that there's a case where that's true. If Feywild was out and every tank was using Winter 4-piece, maybe that'd be a case where you bring out your old LGS 5-piece?

    If you got +500 PRR/MRR instead of those +16% HP, it'd be worth it, right? Obviously that number's far too high, but there's a number somewhere between where losing 16% HP is worth considering. FWIW my tank alt is a first-life with super-outdated gear and a weird build; there's a lot of things I'd trade 16% HP for - although I'm mostly running LN/LH raids.

    Currently I'd like to see Winter's top-tiers be swapped or otherwise buffed; so there's a stronger reason to consider a 6-7 piece Winter set instead of LGS. I want it to be an alternative, not a direct upgrade. If there was 30% available, you'd almost certainly give up your LGS 5-piece, use Winter for your R10 KT, and never look back. Am I wrong?

    (Also like last year I was in a party with Tronko, who said his previous tank build had 10k HP, with which 36>20% would still be 8.8k; he was currently on a Cleric tank with >8k. Take that how you will.)
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  6. #286
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    I disagree that this is bad for balance. Well geared casters already get more than 20% hp from LGS 4-piece set, and lose very little if anything in the way of spell power or relevant dcs to get it. Good luck getting even 3 piece LGS on a melee without sacrificing dps. If 4-piece winter becomes viable for melee (due to actually having use-able items, item shuffle pending...) I'd see it as a positive change in relation to game balance.
    I agree that melees should probably get the +20% hp. but I'd put that in the melee sets if we want that.
    The issue is that right now, maybe 1% (if even) of casters run 4x lgs, or even 2x. Letting every caster get 20% hp (and indeed, making that the only build choice (for non-grinding casters) for U48) will ensure that the average caster gets a huuuge bump in their survivability. And I'm sure we'll see much more outcry of nerf alchs and sorcs when we see the fabled 3.5k+ alchs and 3k+ hp sorcs in random groups. Especially since they'll now also have 40-60 more prr as well. And mrr, etc.
    Last edited by A-O; 10-23-2020 at 03:39 PM.
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  7. #287
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    I agree that melees should probably get the +20% hp. but I'd put that in the melee sets if we want that.
    The issue is that right now, maybe 1% (if even) of casters run 4x lgs, or even 2x. Letting every caster get 20% hp (and indeed, making that the only build choice (for non-grinding casters) for U48) will ensure that the average caster gets a huuuge bump in their survivability. And I'm sure we'll see much more outcry of nerf alchs and sorcs when we see the fabled 3.5k+ alchs and 3k+ hp sorcs in random groups. Especially since they'll now also have 40-60 more prr as well. And mrr, etc.
    I agree that casters being so tanky is a balance issue, but that issue already exists. Making it more prevalent doesn't change that. I'm also not against nerfs to alch/sorc as long as they are done properly.

    The bigger issue to casters being tanky is the free flat hp from reaper points and other flat bonuses not scaling off of base class. 20% more hp for a d4 base hp class would not be a problem if this were fixed.
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  8. #288
    Community Member Epicsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I'm not saying your playstyle should be ignored, but once y'all complete R10 KT will it still be as large of a concern? When next year you're trying for (say) R8 THTH and (say) Fire Resist gets more important, will you be pushing for a Fire Absorb set bonus? Frankly (1) I don't think loot for an entire expansion should be balanced around one guild running one raid at one difficulty. Sorry. (2) Your case is probably the niche case where HP is the best option, and it seems reasonable that there's a case where that's true. If Feywild was out and every tank was using Winter 4-piece, maybe that'd be a case where you bring out your old LGS 5-piece?

    (3) If you got +500 PRR/MRR instead of those +16% HP, it'd be worth it, right? Obviously that number's far too high, but there's a number somewhere between where losing 16% HP is worth considering. FWIW my tank alt is a first-life with super-outdated gear and a weird build; there's a lot of things I'd trade 16% HP for - although I'm mostly running LN/LH raids.

    Currently I'd like to see Winter's top-tiers be swapped or otherwise buffed; so there's a stronger reason to consider a 6-7 piece Winter set instead of LGS. I want it to be an alternative, not a direct upgrade. (4) If there was 30% available, you'd almost certainly give up your LGS 5-piece, use Winter for your R10 KT, and never look back. Am I wrong?

    (Also like last year I was in a party with (5) Tronko, who said his previous tank build had 10k HP, with which 36>20% would still be 8.8k; he was currently on a Cleric tank with >8k. Take that how you will.)
    (1) At no point did I say "an entire expansion should be balanced around one guild running one raid at one difficult," and suggesting that was my intention is misleading. I said my playstyle should be considered, and it should, just as yours should. Earlier, you commented how the Winter Set helps your DPS and PM, and I'm simply relaying how it effects me. Why is my feedback perceived as wanting an entire expansion balanced around me?

    (2) HP is a universally good stat for tanks, whereas fire resistance is situationally useful. I'm not saying situationally useful stats aren't good, or that high fire absorption wouldn't be useful in THTH, but I doubt I'd ever just not need HP.

    (3) DDO is all about numbers. Of course there are alternative methods of achieving the same goal; that is, HP isn't the only way for tanks to survive. I'm happy to entertain other ideas that achieve the same outcome.

    (4) I don't want a direct upgrade to LGS either. I want something equally viable that allows me to stop using a 5-piece LGS and maintain equal survivability. Fewer HP % is fine if made up for in other ways. Losing 16% HP is extensive, and the Winter Set doesn't offer an adequate reason for me to not use LGS instead. To answer your question: I would need to run the numbers, but I'm sure I would be more likely to give up 6% HP in exchange for the benefits of the Winter Set, if the set bonus provided 30% HP. I'm not necessarily advocating for that, either. If the set provided 30% HP, it would need to be in the 6th or 7th slot.

    (5) Standing 10k HP isn't likely. With boosts and consumables for a short time? Sure.
    Last edited by Epicsoul; 10-23-2020 at 03:53 PM.
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  9. #289
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    Confused. People say they don't want to wear the same old gear all the time. But then when something is too good they say fix it or everyone will wear it. Then they make suggestions for how to change the gear...so that all of their characters will wear it lol.
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  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    I agree that melees should probably get the +20% hp. but I'd put that in the melee sets if we want that.
    The issue is that right now, maybe 1% (if even) of casters run 4x lgs, or even 2x. Letting every caster get 20% hp (and indeed, making that the only build choice (for non-grinding casters) for U48) will ensure that the average caster gets a huuuge bump in their survivability. And I'm sure we'll see much more outcry of nerf alchs and sorcs when we see the fabled 3.5k+ alchs and 3k+ hp sorcs in random groups. Especially since they'll now also have 40-60 more prr as well. And mrr, etc.
    This is an itemization issue with the 1% being fire caster. Fire caster only have to put on flamed cleansed set to get the benefit of +9 evocation DC from equipment, artifact set bonus (+4 attribute, +3 DC, 10% fire critical chance) + other equipment stat from the set. Other element type have to find multiple places to fill in the missing stat.

    Then there is the 8% spell critical chance from tiefling making fire a lot easier to reach 100% spell critical chance compared to other element.

    Meteor swarm is also a lot better aoe spell compared to what the other element has.

    If Iceberg had an aoe damage of 1/5 of initial damage and ease of gearing as a fire sorc, people would use cold sorc too.

    Acid spell wouldn't be bad either if acid uses reflex saves DC check instead of fort saves DC check.
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-23-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #291
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am just really wary of potentially causing the death knell for LGS. If I release LGS 2: Literally Better Than LGS, people will stop running lshroud.

    If there's a far easier way of achieving a lesser but still substantial amount of %hp that doesn't require months of dedicated grind of a single raid, I feel it's a net positive change.

    .
    I think it's time after 5 years. After all, we're not still using sword of shadows and balizard, etc. Items need to be replaced.

    And even with that. Lshroud items are level 26.... And people will still run for 1x crit item (casters) and off hand for casters and melee and tanks.

    After all, how many play riding out the storm, and what items are they after?
    How many play Legendary LoB?
    How many play leg artificer?

    In 1 year, those will be super dead. And that's fine. Let Lshroud die. People will still play it for exp and level 26 items and dust/ash/ooze
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  12. #292
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    I might or might not make any specific comments on specific items later, but I'd like to state I support the goal of adding options and flexibility, rather than simply bigger numbers, and the effort to provide alternatives to existing content rather than simply invalidate it (e.g., comments about not simply making LGS useless). This is a much better direction than we've often seen in the past.
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    Confused. People say they don't want to wear the same old gear all the time. But then when something is too good they say fix it or everyone will wear it. Then they make suggestions for how to change the gear...so that all of their characters will wear it lol.
    Well Power does sell... Just looking through the list thing's Id want more alternatives too would be: Quality dex 5(only 4 in game), insightful doubleshot(only 1), distant diversion (maybe even insightful too), armor piercing that doesn't block the doubleshot items, and a few others but heck trying to skim this and put a gear set together isn't easy so hopefully will have a preview 3 I guess.
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  14. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashiry View Post
    Those that still want to run 5 piece set for Ender or one of the other set bonuses from 5 LGS will still wear them.. I'm personally tired of wearing 5 pieces and want to wear something different. it's not fun when a new update comes out and all your doing on a tank is helping others get new gear while yours stays stagnant and possibly only swap out the 3 piece.. i.e. sharn/ravenloft. when there was a whole lot of other things in Ravenloft and Sharn that I wanted to wear but couldn't...


    Tanks give up alot to help others out. 5 years of LGS, im just tired of wearing it.. but want to still be a tank. And the thought of changing out gear can be exciting. When your limited to having to wear 5 year old gear. is that exciting???

    Make T7 Winter 30%. those who tank will go that deep for it. others won't.

    People will still run shroud for .ie. Dust, Ash, and other effects or for Clickies.
    Yes to all of this, but also add +4 art Charisma next to +4 art Con in the same tier.

    People who think 30% HP at T7 would invalidate LGS (which will still keep its 36% HP at 5 items) have never even played a proper tank in high raids and/or skulls.

    We fight tooth and nail to squeeze out every possible source of HP, PRR, MRR, Hamp, etc for an ultimate tank build that needs to meet very specific thresholds in order to be viable for the required difficulty.

    We want to be excited about new loot just as much as the next Joe, otherwise what's the point of purchasing Feywild expack at all?

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    There's a reason we have never done that, even though players keep asking us to do so.
    Ok... third time's a charm I hope (as long as it doesn't require me to travel into the Underdark): Shadow Spike. 1d2 or 1d4 on the level 5 version, either 2d6 or 3d6 on the legendary.
    Last edited by niknight; 10-23-2020 at 04:34 PM.

  16. #296
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MA
    I agree that casters being so tanky is a balance issue, but that issue already exists. Making it more prevalent doesn't change that. I'm also not against nerfs to alch/sorc as long as they are done properly.

    The bigger issue to casters being tanky is the free flat hp from reaper points and other flat bonuses not scaling off of base class. 20% more hp for a d4 base hp class would not be a problem if this were fixed.
    I agree. But then we're back to balancing for the 0.5%. That they're supposedly not balancing for. By giving the masses +20% hp they haven't had before, we're definitely talking power creep for the game's population. Regardless of what the elite players are doing already.
    And this issue can mostly be avoided by putting some tempting dmg boost in the caster set for U48. So the choice isn't as easy.

    And I 10000% agree about reaper hp, but that's a discussion for a different thread.
    Last edited by A-O; 10-23-2020 at 04:36 PM.
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  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    Ok... third time's a charm I hope (as long as it doesn't require me to travel into the Underdark): Shadow Spike.
    Totally doable, fits with the theme. I like it.
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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'm actually looking for something that would compliment profane stats, attack, and damage. This is (currently) in the fall set but it's not a caster item.
    Conc Opp seems like a winner then. Duplicates Greensteel, and its something useful for a martial build as well as a caster or hybrid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    There's a reason we have never done that, even though players keep asking us to do so.
    ...whats the reason? You just dont want MP to be part of gear itemization?

    What about Strikethrough, will that ever see itemization?

  19. #299
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    I agree, legendary shroud needs to be left in the past. Obligatory affixes like HP and crit damage need to be expanded on, instead of leaving them in half decade old content. A new expansion is a great opportunity for doing that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    I think it's time after 5 years. After all, we're not still using sword of shadows and balizard, etc. Items need to be replaced.

    And even with that. Lshroud items are level 26.... And people will still run for 1x crit item (casters) and off hand for casters and melee and tanks.

    After all, how many play riding out the storm, and what items are they after?
    How many play Legendary LoB?
    How many play leg artificer?

    In 1 year, those will be super dead. And that's fine. Let Lshroud die. People will still play it for exp and level 26 items and dust/ash/ooze
    Agreed 100%.

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