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  1. #1
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    Default Compliments to Devs on new raids and Quick Question about Feywild Raids

    I want to thank the devs for the new legendary raids. They are being regularly pugged on Sarlona and have a much higher participation rate compared to Too Hot Too Handle.

    Will the Feywild raids be more like the most recent raids in terms of difficulty or more like Too Hot To Handle? I ask because it was/is hard to find enough people to fill Too Hot To Handle on normal (due to difficulty), but that isn't an issue with the newest raids - seems an average pug can handle these raids on normal and groups wanting a challenge can move up the difficulty ladder.

    I ask because if the Feywild raids will be like the most recent raids I am sure I can find enough people to run the raids with and will buy the expansion. So far I've made the assumption the new xpac raids will be like THTH and decided not to buy the xpac as a result and wait for a point purchase. I really want to support SSG by buying the xpac on my accounts but this is a key point for me. I only want to purchase if I understand how raid scaling will work before it's released so I know whether I will be able to find enough people to handle the raid.

    I would appreciate an answer, but am also fine and waiting to buy the xpac with points if you simply don't know or don't want to answer.

    Thank you

  2. #2
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    Relative difficulty can be tough to answer, particularly at this point, but it seems likely that the new raid will fall in line with more recent raids that are connected to an expansion story resolution. So, you run all the quests, then the raid, and the arc is complete. Too Hot to Handle has its difficulty in part because it has less riding on it so to speak, so the raid was able to be made to provide a particular challenge. It is hard, but that's ok for that raid.
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  3. #3

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    THTH is overtuned compared to every other raid, even after the initial adjustments the devs made. Either the devs are in denial or don't care it's overtuned.

    Don't need to take my word for it. Anecdotally, look at the achievement forum. There's a reason R3 is the highest completion of this raid, compared to every other pre-U47 raid that has been completed on R8 or higher. Having completed THTH R2, I never want to step in that raid again. Forgewraiths are cancer.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Relative difficulty can be tough to answer, particularly at this point, but it seems likely that the new raid will fall in line with more recent raids that are connected to an expansion story resolution. So, you run all the quests, then the raid, and the arc is complete. Too Hot to Handle has its difficulty in part because it has less riding on it so to speak, so the raid was able to be made to provide a particular challenge. It is hard, but that's ok for that raid.
    Thank you for the quick response. I completely understand although I guess that means it will be like THTH where I can't find enough people to run the raid so the xpac isn't worth it for me. It's fine not everything has to work for me - I sincerely appreciate the response so I at least know!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    THTH is overtuned compared to every other raid, even after the initial adjustments the devs made. Either the devs are in denial or don't care it's overtuned.

    Don't need to take my word for it. Anecdotally, look at the achievement forum. There's a reason R3 is the highest completion of this raid, compared to every other pre-U47 raid that has been completed on R8 or higher. Having completed THTH R2, I never want to step in that raid again. Forgewraiths are cancer.
    As long as this is an occasional thing rather than the norm I have no real issue with a few more raids of this difficulty. With good planning and a balanced team the raid is not too tough to beat on norm although I will agree that as soon as you hit reapers the difficulty jumps up considerably. I do like the fact though that there is still something challenging on the raid front and I feel this is one raid that will start seeing a lot more action with the cap increase.

  6. #6
    Community Member Buddha5440's Avatar
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    Forumites: Quests are too easy, we need a challenge!

    Devs: OK...New REAPER mode...

    Forumites: Sweet,

    ...a month or two passes...

    Forumites: We've soloed everything on R10, We need a challenge!

    Devs: New Legendary raids coming out...

    Forumites: This raid is overtuned, we can't complete it above R3.

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  7. #7
    Eye of the Beholder Belnavar's Avatar
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    I personally think one or two super hard raids is okay, especially if they become gradually easier over time as player power grows. It's good to have challenges, even somewhat aspirational ones, in the game. Story arc raids, on the other hand, should definitely be more accessible.

    -Bel

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha5440 View Post
    “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. - John Lydgate
    Not that I disagree in particular but... this sort of generalization assumes that the same people complaining that quest content isn't challenging enough are the very same people complaining the raids are too difficult when in reality its usually more casual players like myself that complain raids are too difficult or too difficult to get a foot in the door and people in my groups do NOT usually complain content is too easy... in fact some of us still have trouble with EE/LE and say so but we're told to be quiet and step down the difficulty to whatever we can handle nevermind that doing so reduces XP, favor, named loot chances, and chance of mythic boosts basically everything.

    Also in the case of an expansion the developers are offering a product for sale where some people wanting to purchase are you know... actually wanting to use the whole content of said product including the raid(s) and may feel that raids which are over-tuned mean that they won't really be able to use or enjoy some portion of said product and therefor the product may have less value to them. They are perfectly within their rights to assess the value of the product on such criteria, just as Ubers are perfectly within their rights to value a non-challenging product less.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Thank you for the quick response. I completely understand although I guess that means it will be like THTH where I can't find enough people to run the raid so the xpac isn't worth it for me. It's fine not everything has to work for me - I sincerely appreciate the response so I at least know!
    I don't want to make a promise but I am suggesting that the raid will be less like Too Hot to Handle and more like the raids seen in Ravenloft and Sharn. edit: raids
    Last edited by Cordovan; 10-21-2020 at 01:35 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I don't want to make a promise but I am suggesting that the raid will be less like Too Hot to Handle and more like the capstone raids seen in Ravenloft and Sharn.
    Yeah but Too Hot To Handle is the capstone raid of Sharn... So the raid will be less like THTH but more like THTH?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    Yeah but Too Hot To Handle is the capstone raid of Sharn... So the raid will be less like THTH but more like THTH?
    Duh sorry brain fry moment. I meant to say that it'll be more like our other recent raids, and less like Too Hot to Handle.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha5440 View Post
    Devs: New Legendary raids coming out...

    Forumites: This raid is overtuned, we can't complete it above R3.
    I'd be happy with THTH if I could get 95% success rate on LN lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I don't want to make a promise but I am suggesting that the raid will be less like Too Hot to Handle and more like the capstone raids seen in Ravenloft and Sharn.
    You're aware that THTH is the capstone raid of Sharn, right? It's the one that requires flagging the chain etc.

    If it's similar to Strahd, I'm fine with that - a bit more difficult than Baba from the same set, but the power gap is much smaller than PN vs THTH.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha5440 View Post
    Forumites: This raid is overtuned, we can't complete it above R3.
    As someone who raids frequently in both pugs and guild runs, I agree that THtH is over-tuned, though my reasoning for saying that isn't because top raiding guilds only do R2-3.

    I am perfectly OK with Hard being, you know, hard. But Normal should, "normally" be completable, and Hard should be reasonable for selective and well-coordinated groups. If only the elite do Elite (or Reaper), that's fine with me.

    With PN and KT (and now VoD and MA), any random pug routinely does Hard, and selective groups do R1.

    With THtH, random pugs do Normal and fail frequently, and selective groups still only do Normal. Are all of Hard, Elite, and R1->R10 aimed only at top 1% raiding guilds? I'd think the swath of folks who are in, say, the top 20% but not the top 1% should be able to successfully do Hard, and average groups of average players should be able to pull off Normal more reliably.

    So far as I'm concerned, devs should be making PN/KT/VoD/MA harder, and THtH, at least on Normal and Hard, somewhat easier.

    EDIT: Note I don't expect all raid difficulties to be exactly identical; some being somewhat harder or easier is fine. But right now the discrepancy between THtH and raids like PN is inexplicably huge.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 10-21-2020 at 03:26 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    it seems likely that the new raid will fall in line with more recent raids that are connected to an expansion story resolution
    NO! Please stop making storylines end in raids! Nobody reads story and fluff in raids. I can't experience the endings of stories on a solo character. This sucks, please stop this practice!
    In the future, move to a design like this:
    "You finished the big quest, however, there's this Lieutenant of the main villain who unlocked phenomenal cosmic power and we need 12 brave adventurers to bring his evil plan to an end!"

    Don't make story chains like Strahd, where you are role-play wise stuck in the land of Barovia forever, because you never found a group to play the raid where you kill him and lift the curse. It's such a massive bummer.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Duh sorry brain fry moment. I meant to say that it'll be more like our other recent raids, and less like Too Hot to Handle.
    Well this is awesome, buying 3 copies of the top-tier xpac today! I love raiding and I especially love PUG raiding.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    Nobody reads story and fluff in raids.
    False.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    I can't experience the endings of stories on a solo character. This sucks, please stop this practice!
    If you want a solo game experience, there are lots of single player games out there, and DDO already has plenty of support for solo players. There is no need to nerf the crowning experiences of the plots for those of us who actually want to play it as the multiplayer game it is designed to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you want a solo game experience, there are lots of single player games out there, and DDO already has plenty of support for solo players. There is no need to nerf the crowning experiences of the plots for those of us who actually want to play it as the multiplayer game it is designed to be.
    I agree, although I personally think having a rewardless, favorless heroic version of the raid would be useful as a training ground. It would also allow small groups of friends that aren't comfortable raiding to experience the story and/or practice without the pressure (even though they miss the overall raiding experience). Most raids require more than one person to complete so soloing wouldn't be an option.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I agree, although I personally think having a rewardless, favorless heroic version of the raid would be useful as a training ground. It would also allow small groups of friends that aren't comfortable raiding to experience the story and/or practice without the pressure (even though they miss the overall raiding experience). Most raids require more than one person to complete so soloing wouldn't be an option.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    I believe the thing you're looking for is called a book.

    you can't be serious

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Duh sorry brain fry moment. I meant to say that it'll be more like our other recent raids, and less like Too Hot to Handle.
    Hi Cordo,

    Could I please make a suggestion in regards to future raids and kind of reverse the practice that has been the norm recently. Rather than have the end raid of the story arc be the harder raid why not have the story driven one be the easier one while the optional one be the harder of the 2? This would help ease the wants of the story driven crowd (yup this crowd does exist) while still giving those of us that want more challenge an occasional nightmare worthy raid to run without leaving those following story lines out in the cold.

    In short I really would like to see a few more raids on par with THTH (great job with this one imo) just don't make them the culmination of a story.

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