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  1. #1
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    Default How are throwers after the nerf?

    Anyone got any feedback?

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    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy9999 View Post
    Anyone got any feedback?
    Based on the game playing exactly according to the feat text, non-monk throwers would be roughly 30~50% lower DPS or pretty much exactly where a Shuriken Bard was before Simple Thrown Expertise. I can't confirm actual in-game behavior, though. When I rebuilt my thrower around the time STE was added, I did that paper calc and pitched the idea of a non-shuriken thrower overboard. Honestly, to be viable at all, Alchemist's thrower tree needs an equivalent to Ninja-Spy's extra toss.

    BTW, when I did that calc, I assumed STE worked like Shuriken Expertise and Ninja's bonus, which are capped at 100; ie. you could have 9,000 DEX on a monk and you'd still only get 2 extra Shuriken -- I've tested this on my thrower, though sadly with somewhat less than 9k DEX (roughly 115). SE & Nina do NOT add to double-shot. Each is a separate chance for 1 extra toss.


    So, no actual game testing of altered U47 STE, but hopefully some of the above helps a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    Based on the game playing exactly according to the feat text, non-monk throwers would be roughly 30~50% lower DPS or pretty much exactly where a Shuriken Bard was before Simple Thrown Expertise. I can't confirm actual in-game behavior, though. When I rebuilt my thrower around the time STE was added, I did that paper calc and pitched the idea of a non-shuriken thrower overboard. Honestly, to be viable at all, Alchemist's thrower tree needs an equivalent to Ninja-Spy's extra toss.

    BTW, when I did that calc, I assumed STE worked like Shuriken Expertise and Ninja's bonus, which are capped at 100; ie. you could have 9,000 DEX on a monk and you'd still only get 2 extra Shuriken -- I've tested this on my thrower, though sadly with somewhat less than 9k DEX (roughly 115). SE & Nina do NOT add to double-shot. Each is a separate chance for 1 extra toss.


    So, no actual game testing of altered U47 STE, but hopefully some of the above helps a little.
    Yep its a pretty sad state, after having a good go of a pally, melee have nothing to complain about.
    Great survivability stacks of prr mrr and hit points. Also boosted, great single target damage.
    Would be good to see some 2wf options to be viable though.
    I wouldn't say nerf 2h it's fun atm, but ranged isn't. Typically you will pull agro focusing on single target, 1 hit and you're dead.
    Ranged needs to be able to take the targets down. Some mobs move fast, ranged have limited cc and slowing effects also low survivability and kiting is not always an option.
    Let's hope the expansion makes ranged closer to melee survivability and damage.

  4. #4
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy9999 View Post
    pally, melee have nothing to complain about. Great survivability stacks of prr mrr and hit points. Also boosted, great single target damage.
    PLD are definitely fun and high-survive if built that way, but outside of pure-outsider/undead fights (Kor Kaza under KotC is hilariously good DPS), the DPS is much lower than my SWF melee. Mostly KotC does well only because of Holy Retribution. Poor profile on most 2H weapons puts the single-target DPS a fair bit lower than SWF.

    The problem I have with PLD is they don't turn off defender when they should. They'll step up to Kor Kaza, crank up the MP, then flip the dragon and wonder why they died (or why their melee buddies died).

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy9999 View Post
    Would be good to see some 2wf options to be viable though.
    I keep toying with TWF, but the nice DPS options are all hidden in deep cores and that blocks using a multiclass option to shore up other deficits in the build. If I was building DPS for a static group, pure class TWF or pure + 1~2 splash levels becomes extremely attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy9999 View Post
    I wouldn't say nerf 2h it's fun atm, but ranged isn't. Typically you will pull agro focusing on single target, 1 hit and you're dead.
    Pulling agro typically means you're opening fire too soon. Penguin style wins here. Never be the first penguin off the ice floe. Push some other squawker off to test for leopard seals. And, it helps to run in SD for a total of threat-50%.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy9999 View Post
    Ranged needs to be able to take the targets down. Some mobs move fast, ranged have limited cc and slowing effects also low survivability and kiting is not always an option.
    I built my ranged thrower to handle all those issues and have top DPS -- EK/monk/thrower can put down ice, sleet, & fog to create a sticky puddle nothing can crawl through before being killed. Sleet protects the melee that want to step in and wale away, too. DPS is similar to pre-nerf Inquisitive, but it does have a few drawbacks I'd like to find ways around -- like painfully low MRR due to cloth armor.

    You could also run GXbow with Volley, which is THE ideal ranged weapon with both CC & party DPS debuff all in one.

    Even without dropping a kite puddle, you can still kite in place by bounce strafing on top of things. This helps keep things in range of your tank's intimidate and/or your CC'ers hold circle, too.

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    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    PLD are definitely fun and high-survive if built that way, but outside of pure-outsider/undead fights (Kor Kaza under KotC is hilariously good DPS), the DPS is much lower than my SWF melee. Mostly KotC does well only because of Holy Retribution. Poor profile on most 2H weapons puts the single-target DPS a fair bit lower than SWF.
    Except mauls run (15 in LD)16-20x4. I'd like to see your SWF build that supposedly outdps a THF maul paladin. Doubt it exists. But I'll have an open mind.
    And now that there's a raid falchion even without silvanus there's a nice 14-20x3 profile available to everyone. Or 15-20x4 if barbarian/barb split.
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

  6. #6
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Still top tier. It depends what you run now though.

    Hunts end still basically oneshots r10 mobs. Throwers still have cc options (LGS ice, ottos, pin, etc..) Dps is still near the top on paper, and probably much higher in practice depending on content.
    Some THF builds probably do more damage in typical R10s. (its easier to cc a group and strikethrough than it is to line up a kite train), but for anything difficult throwers typically pull ahead.
    They just released 3 more raids that require and heavily favor ranged on higher difficulties, so there's also that...

    Anecdotally, everyone I know that likes ranged is still playing throwers and doing well. Everyone that was only playing them because of power are trying THF/bears and having mixed results

    Balance wise, I'd say throwers and THF are in a good spot relative to each other now. (Both equally balanced/overpowered, depending on your perspective) Inquisitive is still decent, but mostly a leveling style now. Bows are for burst damage gimmick builds. SWF is for bards, and TWF is trash.
    Thelanis

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    Community Member zappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    and TWF is trash.

    ooooooooof, ever try a pain/suffering assassin? now thats some FUN r10 and wipes the floor with thrower dps (as long as hunts end is on cooldown)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
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    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zappy View Post
    ooooooooof, ever try a pain/suffering assassin? now thats some FUN r10 and wipes the floor with thrower dps (as long as hunts end is on cooldown)
    Exception proves the rule in this case. That build, i would argue, is strong because of instakills, 2 specific daggers and vistani. How are non-assassin non-vistani TWFs doing? (inb4 tempest)
    Thelanis

  9. #9
    Community Member zappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Exception proves the rule in this case. That build, i would argue, is strong because of instakills, 2 specific daggers and vistani. How are non-assassin non-vistani TWFs doing? (inb4 tempest)
    TWF is exceptional single target damage and assassin goes very well with that style. the meta no longer includes weapons besides pain/suffering in twf builds. (as there is a fill universal tree that makes those specific weapons better that any class can use)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
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  10. #10
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zappy View Post
    the meta no longer includes weapons besides pain/suffering in twf builds
    For TWF, Pain+Suffering Vistani is quite literally my only consideration.

    I've been toying with a TWF debuffing FVS build, but AP is a quite short for all I want: heal wall, vistani essentials, ameliorate, and the lantern archon for unlocking rebuke. Likely easier and better debuffing to use warlock for the underpinnings, but then it's a warlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    Except mauls run (15 in LD)16-20x4. I'd like to see your SWF build that supposedly outdps a THF maul paladin. Doubt it exists. But I'll have an open mind.
    SWF is 30% haste on top of it's damage and you can reach 15x5 profile. I have both a Maul PLD and a high SWF right now and it's just night and day. My SWF (without any incite) will typically yank agro off a PLD that's just running defender.

    That's sustained DPS, though. Paladin Holy Retribution is absurdly OP for bursting trash. Put that on the table and Paladin wins by miles. The only way SWF compares is via EK Tempest, which has a longer CD, no insta-kill effect, and reduces the profile to only 15x4.

    BTW, this hardly means PLD is "bad". It's arguably better overall due to it's superior trash clearing via HR and built-in extra defensives, but it's definitely much lower single target DPS.

    Here's a link to one of the nice SWF builds: Haxen Bard.

  11. #11
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    So long story short for the OP, no one knows how throwers are rn, just speculation and 2hf stuff.
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    The same ...






    as all my other mules.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-18-2020 at 11:37 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    SWF is 30% haste on top of it's damage and you can reach 15x5 profile. I have both a Maul PLD and a high SWF right now and it's just night and day. My SWF (without any incite) will typically yank agro off a PLD that's just running defender.
    Yes, SWF has 30% haste. But that's just listing what SWF has, not why it'd be better or any proof. 15-20x5 requires a specific split (and you're down precision so worse DPS off the bat). That your SWF can pull aggro of another character shows literally nothing, and if you think what, SWF has 600% more dps than a THF? 'cause that's the amount of hate (or more) said "defender" would have. Is just stupid. Or are you suggesting SWF has 600% more dps than THF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    That's sustained DPS, though. Paladin Holy Retribution is absurdly OP for bursting trash. Put that on the table and Paladin wins by miles. The only way SWF compares is via EK Tempest, which has a longer CD, no insta-kill effect, and reduces the profile to only 15x4.
    THF does EK tempest miles better than SWF though. And it's now nerfed to be useless to build for anyways, so that sucks for both. Which is a shame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    but it's definitely much lower single target DPS.
    Both spreadsheet math, and ingame testing shows otherwise. Just listing "30% aspd" and "I pull aggro off of pugs" isn't good proof. A swash-barb is fairly close, I grant you that. But that's assuming 0% fort. Meanwhile sharn is 100-150% fort. So any build using PA is (particularly one reliant on crits) is automatically a failure for DPS.


    And it is debates like these that will keep both SWF and TWF awful for the coming 5 years. Back in the day people thought THF did more dps than TWF, and I fought tooth-and-nail to show it didn't. Only took 10 years. But it happened, everyone knew THF was bad and TWF the best, and then finally SSG buffed THF. And now it's the reverse.
    Last edited by A-O; 10-19-2020 at 02:29 AM.
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

  14. #14
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    And it is debates like these that will keep both SWF and TWF awful for the coming 5 years.
    Yep.
    SWF can only be compared to THF for hyper specific bard builds, and is trash otherwise.
    TWF can only be compared to THF for hyper specific Vistani assassin or tempest builds and is trash otherwise.

    IMO nerf swashbuckler, vistani and tempest. Give the equivalent nerf as a buff to SWF/TWF as a whole.
    Thelanis

  15. #15
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    not why it'd be better or any proof. 15-20x5 requires a specific split (and you're down precision so worse DPS off the bat).
    Heh. We're both just talking and doing each other the courtesy of assuming we can see the math and play behind the talk. It's certainly a LOT more fun than "whipping up" a test character, which has more masochistic whipping involved in the process than testing.

    BTW, the build I linked does have Precision, not PA. Precision is essential for crit-based and desirable for others due to accuracy. Personally, I'm solidly convinced that SWF flatly out-DPS's THF due to actual play on my own characters -- just as I'm convinced THF out-bursts and out-AE's SWF.

    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    debates like these that will keep both SWF and TWF awful for the coming 5 years
    If you swap to a comparison of quest clearing rate, THF pummels S/TWF. It's insanely hard to put even bad AE on an S/TWF build. IMHO, this is the comparison that makes your above "awful" statement relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    So long story short for the OP, no one knows how throwers are rn, just speculation and 2hf stuff.
    Oh, no .. I know how mine is, but I assumed the OP was asking about STWE throwers since he mentioned "since the nerf". Mine doesn't use STWE and wasn't nerfed. A good monk thrower is still superb DPS and a lot of fun to play, but it's also a LOT more work to build and gear than the bugged STWE versions.

    My thrower is parked @ L30. I typically only use her for raids. She's also usually my go-to for L30 solo farming. DPS is fantastic -- about the same as the old pre-nerf inquisitive. BUT, it takes a lot more work to get there and unlike the pre-nerf INQ, it really only shines L29+. I can't see anyone casually playing a thrower for a couple of lives.

    BTW, throwers do have some very serious drawbacks (low MRR and breaking DR are big ones). Also, my thrower is the closest thing I have to a linear build -- only does dps, instants, & traps. I'd love to work up a decent ranged build with a healer and/or debuffer base to expand that list and incidentally fix the horrid MRR issue, but without reducing the overall DPS by "too much" (hellifino where the cutoff would be, it's a "feel/taste" thing).

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