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  1. #1
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Default Hard Core Thoughts

    Here are the my takeaways from HC 2020:

    1. HC is fun.
    2. HC players are cool.
    3. The rewards feel about right.
    4. The sashes look more "unique" than the cloaks yet are easier to earn. They should be flipped.
    5. One HC season per year would be better.
    5a. I would love a supplemental"Ultra-Hard Corps Murder Session! (Survival not expected)."
    -One life to live
    -R1 minimum difficulty
    -Can't run quests overlevel
    -Mimic event in effect (maybe with a reduced spawn rate)
    -Reward thresholds lowered because of the mortality rate
    -Leaderboard list top achievers not just survivors
    I can be found on Orien as Cilon or Acroyer.
    HC4: Evilmidnight Bomber
    HC3: Soulstone in Your Pack.
    HC2: Carnage and Ransack

  2. #2
    Community Member Dendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    Here are the my takeaways from HC 2020:

    1. HC is fun.
    2. HC players are cool.
    3. The rewards feel about right.
    4. The sashes look more "unique" than the cloaks yet are easier to earn. They should be flipped.
    5. One HC season per year would be better.
    5a. I would love a supplemental"Ultra-Hard Corps Murder Session! (Survival not expected)."
    -One life to live
    -R1 minimum difficulty
    -Can't run quests overlevel
    -Mimic event in effect (maybe with a reduced spawn rate)
    -Reward thresholds lowered because of the mortality rate
    -Leaderboard list top achievers not just survivors
    much too trivial.
    Should have much more realistic rules like say No healing. Ever. Anywhere. or perhaps 1hp per 24 hours.

  3. #3
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    @ CSP - Wow - first, Respect for a reasonable list of changes, not "Pie in the Sky, change everything!". This is actually (potentially) productive. o7

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    -Leaderboard list top achievers not just survivors
    This would be fair if the non-survivors were given an asterisk - that seems in line w/ modern RL sports achievement lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrix View Post
    much too trivial.
    Should have much more realistic rules like say No healing. Ever. Anywhere. or perhaps 1hp per 24 hours.
    And a case in point.
    The Basics of DDO / "Select Adventure Pack" Sales & "How to choose an Adventure Pack"

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  4. #4
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrix View Post
    much too trivial.
    Should have much more realistic rules like say No healing. Ever. Anywhere. or perhaps 1hp per 24 hours.
    I get that, but that wouldn't be much in keeping w/traditional D&D. They started the whole thing about religious healers in games.
    I can be found on Orien as Cilon or Acroyer.
    HC4: Evilmidnight Bomber
    HC3: Soulstone in Your Pack.
    HC2: Carnage and Ransack

  5. #5
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    -R1 minimum difficulty
    I focus on reaper on hardcore but I don't think it should be yet another part of the game that over-emphasizes reaper. I like the reaper cloaks better than the 20 cloaks though.

    In 3 seasons my main reaper run characters didn't die. This is mainly because I stuck to what I knew and mastered really well. I solo'd the first 2 seasons and this season ran with a group and nobody in the group died even once all season. We know what we know well.

    On the other hand going for the favor run I died in season 2 at level 16 in a quest I've only run a few times (and haven't run in years) to a one-shot mechanic I knew about but since I never run the quest my timing was slightly off. In season 3 I got overconfident and sloppy due to the extra lifes and managed to die twice this season running to 20. Including a disintegrate from the beholder boss in Von 3 on just elite when I zerged into the room overconfidently. So while the favor run might be easier overall it requires a wider range of knowledge about the game and quests compared to reaper so it's rewarding something completely different. With reaper I can get away with just sticking to a much smaller range of quests even though those quests are more difficult compared to elite.

    So at least for me the favor run is more dangerous because I rarely get anywhere close to 5k running heroics since I run the minimum needed to get to 20 on live. So there are many quests I rarely run.
    DC Warlock Reaper Build (U48)
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  6. #6
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    Here are the my takeaways from HC 2020:

    1. HC is fun.
    2. HC players are cool.
    3. The rewards feel about right.
    4. The sashes look more "unique" than the cloaks yet are easier to earn. They should be flipped.
    5. One HC season per year would be better.
    5a. I would love a supplemental"Ultra-Hard Corps Murder Session! (Survival not expected)."
    -One life to live
    -R1 minimum difficulty
    -Can't run quests overlevel
    -Mimic event in effect (maybe with a reduced spawn rate)
    -Reward thresholds lowered because of the mortality rate
    -Leaderboard list top achievers not just survivors
    Good job so far.

    Still waiting on no overlevel questing, and reaper difficulty only!
    I can be found on Orien as Cilon or Acroyer.
    HC4: Evilmidnight Bomber
    HC3: Soulstone in Your Pack.
    HC2: Carnage and Ransack

  7. #7
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    Here are the my takeaways from HC 2020:

    1. HC is fun.
    2. HC players are cool.
    3. The rewards feel about right.
    4. The sashes look more "unique" than the cloaks yet are easier to earn. They should be flipped.
    5. One HC season per year would be better.
    5a. I would love a supplemental"Ultra-Hard Corps Murder Session! (Survival not expected)."
    -One life to live
    -R1 minimum difficulty
    -Can't run quests overlevel
    -Mimic event in effect (maybe with a reduced spawn rate)
    -Reward thresholds lowered because of the mortality rate
    -Leaderboard list top achievers not just survivors
    The thing I don't like about HC, and it seems perhaps you would agree, is that it's not actually hard. There's no reason or reward to attempt anything that would in any way present a possibility of dying. One thing you can be quite certain of anyone who places high in the leaderboards is that they took on very little risk and for them nothing was very hard.

    Personally, I think the very idea of perma death is pretty bad in and of itself, but if you want to call that hard core, then you shouldn't be able to choose your own difficulty setting.

    I would probably enjoy perma death hard core if the solitary goal was to get to cap without any user selectable difficulty settings, but instead a single setting that was basically r5 for heroic and r1 for epic. Who can run around in circles the most times in 3 months just seems silly to me.
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  8. #8
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    Eliminating all hires would be a fun addition to any type of HC. Would level the population starting differences a bit more due to not being able to use gold seal bonus hires.

    I am enjoying the season. Love the mimics and new champions. Would love more suprises like that in this or other seasons.

    I only play elites, in two slow static groups, and have pure alt characters that join random LFMs. Vastly different play styles (slow,careful, careful static grps vs most LFMs zerging style). But would jump into a reaper HC for the giggles.

  9. #9
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    Hardcore in almost any game has always been more about mitigating difficulty than doing "difficult" content. The goal is simply to not die, not to achieve something greater than what you would in non-hardcore mode. In Path of Exile, hardcore players always over gear, over level, over plan at each stage of the game and they always level using lower level and less dangerous maps. While in softcore people blast through content much faster, but it's technically harder as you aren't fully prepared at all times. Which begs the question; which is more difficult? Playing the game in "easy mode" where a single mistake can kill you. Or playing the game as intended with the most difficult content, but being allowed to continue on even in death?

    Playing hardcore the most efficient way is basically "easy mode" as you're just always over-prepared, taking it slowly, etc.. so the inherent challenges you normally encounter are lessened. The true challenge is to remain focused and not "slip up". If you really wanted to enjoy a true hardcore DDO run you'd need to completely disable the store and all pre-order bonuses, no auction house, etc.. Longtime players on HC start their character with a huge head start compared to someone who is a true first lifer.

    I was big into Dark Souls challenge runs back in the day and I was always against the whole new game plus mechanic in terms of difficulty. People acted as if it was more challenging but I always considered it much easier as you started the game with your endgame gear, fully leveled up which overtook the difficulty increase. One of my favorite challenge runs I started was a NG+ fresh start, where you start in NG+ at the same level and gear you would have started with normally and it ended up being significantly more difficult without adding goofy rules like using a guitar controller or whatever.

  10. #10
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    My take on HC is that they should just make a hardcore server that is perpetually available. They could rotate or switch up the rewards to keep it fresh but it's clear that hardcore makes money for them and I think it makes sense for it to be an ongoing thing.

    Leaderboards would still exist and the current leaders would be the incentive for players to keep rolling up new toons to try to climb the ladder.

    Incentives for going to a single permanent HC server would be that the overall character creation rate would be similar but spread over a much longer time period. This would reduce lag based on how many characters were being created at a time. Also, it is obvious that HC drives both gold rolls and things like tome sales. Having this option permanently available to players probably would lead to more of these types of sales. Another sale type that would probably go up is store-bought reincarnation hearts. Who is going to farm 20 tokens of the twelve, risking death and loss of HC privileges on the character, when they can just buy the heart they want and be onto their next life?

    Finally, a permanent HC server would likely drive sales of guild ships and similar guild-based items since these would not "die" and be lost over time. In a real way the HC guild would probably become more important than the characters in it as a cache of player investment. You would have lots of reputation decay as characters died and transferred off the server, however this would be a real incentive for dedicated guilds to keep their characters in the Land of Lost Souls where their rep stayed on the HC server.

    Anyway, I think this is the logical next step and probably would represent a pretty good income stream for DDO and SSG.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    I would probably enjoy perma death hard core if the solitary goal was to get to cap without any user selectable difficulty settings, but instead a single setting that was basically r5 for heroic and r1 for epic. .
    With the limited number of people who would play such a hardcore, what incentive would there be for SSG to run such an event? Of course one is free to play such settings for oneself if one wishes.

    More players = more income.
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  12. #12
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    There are plenty people who still running harbour.
    Hard to find a higher level group running on any difficulty.
    With Your only reaperx setting You would be kinda lonely.
    You nerfed my monks, dailies and alchemists.
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  13. #13
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    Disagree completely and this feels like a thread where the top-tier players want mooooorrrrrrreee!. HC is plenty hard as it is. How do I know? Well, my L20 can't find a group for the last 2 days in epics because there are so few L20+ characters. So most people aren't even making it to 20. Now, I get it, if you play super cautious 4 levels over in a static group you remove large amounts of risk. But the body count is high enough already. I do like the cloak swap idea though. The 10 point reaper cloak is the best cosmetic and should be swapped for the L20 cosmetic.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    because there are so few L20+ characters. So most people aren't even making it to 20..
    Well, most people *I* see are doing 5k favor, which is a slow grind. And unless you play 8 hours a day, it will be a while before *most* people get 5k favor and then cap out.

    So I disagree with "most people aren't even making it" - at least based on your evidence so far.

  15. #15
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Disagree completely and this feels like a thread where the top-tier players want mooooorrrrrrreee!. HC is plenty hard as it is. How do I know? Well, my L20 can't find a group for the last 2 days in epics because there are so few L20+ characters. So most people aren't even making it to 20. Now, I get it, if you play super cautious 4 levels over in a static group you remove large amounts of risk. But the body count is high enough already. I do like the cloak swap idea though. The 10 point reaper cloak is the best cosmetic and should be swapped for the L20 cosmetic.
    I didn’t think HC was hard at all

    play is different then live as on live you can push harder and risk death in higher difficulty on live.

    In HC it’s more about playing safe than facing difficulty



    Increased difficulty running higher reapers or 2lvl over is entirely an option that players can choose for themselves.
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 04-17-2021 at 10:28 AM.

  16. #16
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    I didn’t think HC was hard at all

    play is different then live as on live you can push harder and risk death in higher difficulty on live.

    In HC it’s more about playing safe than facing difficulty

    Increased difficulty running higher reapers or 2lvl over is entirely an option that players can choose for themselves.
    You can't really compare live to hardcore with regards to challenge. Hardcore is the only true challenge mode in the game as the consequences for a mistake are enormous.

    Hardcore is about much more than playing it safe. It's also about running a much weaker character and having to account for that in how you build and play. not dying is part of the challenge and something that can be almost entirely ignored on live. In season 1 under 100 people earned their reaper cloak compared to over 100 deaths the first day of hardcore. If it was as easy as you say those metrics would be very different. We are also playing against new champs that hit much harder than standard champs with different mechanics that had to be figured out on the fly while risking death.

    Running for favor is much easier but it also force some people (like myself) out of their comfort boxes a bit because on live I skip so many quests.

    People that discount difficulty on hardcore tend to be the same people that want it removed or don't run it. There are over 100 people with reaper wings on Sarlona and less than 100 across all servers that earned a reaper cloak in season 1.
    DC Warlock Reaper Build (U48)
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  17. #17
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    You can't really compare live to hardcore with regards to challenge. Hardcore is the only true challenge mode in the game as the consequences for a mistake are enormous.

    Hardcore is about much more than playing it safe. It's also about running a much weaker character and having to account for that in how you build and play. not dying is part of the challenge and something that can be almost entirely ignored on live. In season 1 under 100 people earned their reaper cloak compared to over 100 deaths the first day of hardcore. If it was as easy as you say those metrics would be very different. We are also playing against new champs that hit much harder than standard champs with different mechanics that had to be figured out on the fly while risking death.

    Running for favor is much easier but it also force some people (like myself) out of their comfort boxes a bit because on live I skip so many quests.

    People that discount difficulty on hardcore tend to be the same people that want it removed or don't run it. There are over 100 people with reaper wings on Sarlona and less than 100 across all servers that earned a reaper cloak in season 1.
    Incorrect Hardcore is not hard it’s more of a timesink playing safely

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by boredGamer View Post
    Well, most people *I* see are doing 5k favor, which is a slow grind. And unless you play 8 hours a day, it will be a while before *most* people get 5k favor and then cap out.

    So I disagree with "most people aren't even making it" - at least based on your evidence so far.
    You have no clue who is grinding for favor and who isn't. There is no statistical way to measure this so your use of "most" is completely inaccurate. Meanwhile, what I stated is absolutely verifiable. These last two days I've logged on I have seen exactly 2 other players in the 20-22 range. There is a handful at L30 running. It's actually unfortunate because I like HC but there is no longer anyone to quest with. Ah well, back to Orien, I guess I "won" HC.


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  19. #19
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Incorrect Hardcore is not hard it’s more of a timesink playing safely
    That's your opinion, but simple math proves otherwise. Live is a time sink for sure and there is nothing wrong with that. I've invested alot of time on multiple characters and enjoyed it.

    Hardcore on the other hand is the only challenge mode where failure is a possibility. Season 1 was a great example. Well over 100 deaths on day 1 alone and less than 100 people across all servers that earned their reaper cloak in 3 months. A much smaller group earned the reaper pet. The math is not hard to understand - or at least it shouldn't be.
    DC Warlock Reaper Build (U48)
    Max DC Illusionist Reaper Build (U48)

  20. #20
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    That's your opinion, but simple math proves otherwise. Live is a time sink for sure and there is nothing wrong with that. I've invested alot of time on multiple characters and enjoyed it.

    Hardcore on the other hand is the only challenge mode where failure is a possibility. Season 1 was a great example. Well over 100 deaths on day 1 alone and less than 100 people across all servers that earned their reaper cloak in 3 months. A much smaller group earned the reaper pet. The math is not hard to understand - or at least it shouldn't be.
    No that is yourn opinion

    Hardcore is not hard
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 04-17-2021 at 01:38 PM.

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