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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I have tentative plans to swap it with Distract. You're right that it should probably match the other trees.
    Noooooo! Hard no! And here's why...

    It doesnt match the other trees. Unlike Harper and Falc, FI has no innate Trance. Also, the builds that would have a niche for this - Pal, Bard, Sorc EK, ES Lock, etc. - are already pretty thin-stretched for their AP. Getting CHA-to-combat for 7 AP rather than 12 makes up for no trance, and helps it actually fit into the builds that would need it, especially the non-Pal ones that will need to spend at least 4 AP and a cross-class level already to add a CHA trance in another tree. The total AP cost for the whole package (hit, dmg, trance) still comes out about the same as Harper.

    E.g. a pure class split could go 41/31/8, which could fit it in for 7 AP but not for 12.
    Last edited by droid327; 09-16-2020 at 03:54 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts?

    I really like the placement of Enlarge in the core 18, instead of tier five.


    Any room in the tree for a free Extend Metamagic?
    Possibly Tier Five or Core 20?
    It would make this tree seem more Caster Themed.


    Or could we move Extend to a different place in the Harper Tree?
    I see no reason why Extend could not be moved to Core 18 of the Harper Tree, expect for the already sparse Harper Tier Five becomes even less so.
    Technically duplication in both trees would be ok since the action points limitations would exclude each other indirectly.



    Testing out the tree on Druid and Cleric casters, there is a very thin line to walk (but it is there) for toons bypassing the Cha to hit options in favor of spellcasting.

    If I had my preferences, I would move/duplicate Extend (core 20 which is weak atm) and Eschew (core 12 which might be a bit heavy but hey its eschew) from the Harper tree to this tree, making it truly caster focused, while leaving most of your current other changes alone.

  3. #103
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post

    Lol absolutely not. Casters buying a way to use their mental stats to hit/damage is not outside the "caster" wheelhouse in the slightest. I'm also not removing the Shadowblade conjuring SLA, either. I am going to have them grant proficiency with themselves, though (and tone their SP cost down a bit for the conjuration to avoid being trapped under Echoes with no weapon).
    Then why doesn't it also have int/wis to hit/dmg? Do you mean that this tree is only for cha-based casters?

    Since you want shadowblades to be a core aspect of the fighting caster playstyle this tree offers (I think that's fine!). How about, "when wielding a shadowblade in the offhand you get cha tohit/dmg", or is that too hard to code?
    I'm really trying to stop this tree from becoming a paladin/cleric/warchanter tree. Because as long as there's cha tohit/dmg that easy, paladins will just go silvanus with cha to hit/dmg, and it'll break the game even more for THF and paladins. Might as well start calling it Ps and Paladins online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    • Shadowblades grant proficiency with shortswords while equipped and now cost less SP (5sp per shadowblade, so 10sp for the dual)
    • Feydark Explorer grants Move Silently instead of Diplomacy (for, yanno, sneakin')
    • Capstone is getting a longer duration (10->15 seconds)
    • Offensive SLAs are getting slightly higher Max Caster Levels to help their DPS, and there's now a Master of Shadowblades feat in Epics to further let them scale in epics.
    • Offensive Shadowblade spells are also getting their cooldowns reduced (5 -> 4 seconds, 10 -> 8 seconds, 30 -> 25 seconds), which will also help their DPS
    • Greater Color Spray is getting its SP cost reduced to better match Gnome (10 -> 4sp) and a real tooltip (and also the ability to actually use your illusion bonuses and highest of int/wis/cha which, yanno, seems important :P)
    • The Familiars themselves are going to actually be ethereal to spells and projectiles so you can cast through them and not have your attack chain eaten by a friendly cute flying cat
    • Displacement T5 is being replaced by perma, always-on displacement. If this goes badly I'd like to assert now that this was Torc's idea and not my own.


    Thoughts?
    Capstone still concealment and negated by true seeing/reaper still makes it bad. I know you don't supposedly balance for reaper. But I still think it would be fair to make it better there too.

    And I still think you need to improve the SLAs more. Adding more caster levels won't fix the low base dmg. At least make em 1d6+3/1d6+4/1d6+5 respectively. They'll still be niche and kinda badish because they're force. But at least they'll be useable low R. Or if you still consider that "too good for an SLA", how about also giving the enhancement: "Grants Ring of Shadowblades/Fan of shadowblades/shadowblades to your spellbook as a level X/Y/Z spell", that you can cast with more base dmg. So you get both an SLA and a "real spell". But perhaps that's too hard/time intensive to add.

    As others have said, displacement as a T5 isn't great. It should be a T4, or not exist at all since you get blur at an early tier. I'd just make it stacking concealment @ like 15-20%. THen I'd add "free heighten" or something in T5 instead.
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  4. #104
    Community Member straytext's Avatar
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    With regard to Displacement, can we make it another type? Palemaster Wraiths can get 25% Incorporeality which causes targets to both roll past Displacement and the Incorporeality. Lore-wise you're not Incorporeal, you're surrounded in pixie dust or dazzling lights or flying bunnies, I dunno. Something akin to the Ascendant Shroud bonuses?

    "Targets are dazzled by your illusory lights making it difficult to actually hit you. If they do hit you, you gain %somenumber% temp hitpoints. Hitpoints can trigger once per %somenumber% of seconds. You are shiny."

    Edit to add: doesn't have to be lights, could be "motes of shadow". The temp hitpoints is mostly because you're kinda tricking yourself into thinking you're healthier than you really are.
    Last edited by straytext; 09-16-2020 at 04:40 PM.

  5. #105
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    Maybe I missed it but what exactly does great color spray do as opposed to normal CS?
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  6. #106
    Community Member straytext's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    Maybe I missed it but what exactly does great color spray do as opposed to normal CS?
    Greater causes the target to be helpless. The lesser color spray doesn't cause helpless.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    • Shadowblades grant proficiency with shortswords while equipped and now cost less SP (5sp per shadowblade, so 10sp for the dual)
    • Feydark Explorer grants Move Silently instead of Diplomacy (for, yanno, sneakin')
    • Capstone is getting a longer duration (10->15 seconds)
    • Offensive SLAs are getting slightly higher Max Caster Levels to help their DPS, and there's now a Master of Shadowblades feat in Epics to further let them scale in epics.
    • Offensive Shadowblade spells are also getting their cooldowns reduced (5 -> 4 seconds, 10 -> 8 seconds, 30 -> 25 seconds), which will also help their DPS
    • Greater Color Spray is getting its SP cost reduced to better match Gnome (10 -> 4sp) and a real tooltip (and also the ability to actually use your illusion bonuses and highest of int/wis/cha which, yanno, seems important :P)
    • The Familiars themselves are going to actually be ethereal to spells and projectiles so you can cast through them and not have your attack chain eaten by a friendly cute flying cat
    • Displacement T5 is being replaced by perma, always-on displacement. If this goes badly I'd like to assert now that this was Torc's idea and not my own.


    Thoughts?
    All look pretty solid to me - as a somewhat related side note, I haven't had a chance to get onto lammania yet, is the proficiency in itself thing for shadowblades also being extended to flameblades?
    I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was, now what's it is weird and scary to me.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    For purpose of consistency with other universal tree, Familiar's Flourish II should be move to Tier 3 and refraction or spell pen move to Tier 2.
    That is not consistent because there is no standard consistency.

    Harper Int is 1/3
    Falconry Wis is 2/4
    EK has only Int to hit at 3
    SB has only to damage at 3
    All the trees with Dex are in the cores
    Last edited by Cernunan; 09-16-2020 at 05:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Noooooo! Hard no! And here's why...

    It doesnt match the other trees. Unlike Harper and Falc, FI has no innate Trance. Also, the builds that would have a niche for this - Pal, Bard, Sorc EK, ES Lock, etc. - are already pretty thin-stretched for their AP. Getting CHA-to-combat for 7 AP rather than 12 makes up for no trance, and helps it actually fit into the builds that would need it, especially the non-Pal ones that will need to spend at least 4 AP and a cross-class level already to add a CHA trance in another tree. The total AP cost for the whole package (hit, dmg, trance) still comes out about the same as Harper.

    E.g. a pure class split could go 41/31/8, which could fit it in for 7 AP but not for 12.
    This
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality.

  10. #110
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Good morning! Here are some responses!



    Because the Augment Summoning feat should do something with your Familiar, hence the Illusion DCs. The Familiar doesn't have stats and it's weird that if you wanted to enhance it the Augment Summoning feat doesn't do anything, so now it does something you want. To help get this idea across, I've made the tooltip a little more detailed. ("+1 Illusion DCs. The feats Augment Summoning and Improved Augment Summoning now each empower your familiar as well, and will each grant you +5 Force Spell Power and an additional +1 Illusion DCs.")



    I have tentative plans to swap it with Distract. You're right that it should probably match the other trees.



    Lol absolutely not. Casters buying a way to use their mental stats to hit/damage is not outside the "caster" wheelhouse in the slightest. I'm also not removing the Shadowblade conjuring SLA, either. I am going to have them grant proficiency with themselves, though (and tone their SP cost down a bit for the conjuration to avoid being trapped under Echoes with no weapon).



    Sure, that sounds reasonable to me.



    We're already doing chunks of Spellpower per core that puts the spellpower totals right where we want them, and doing it this way lets us do the "familiar levels up with your core abilities" thing.

    So, to sum up, here's what I'm thinking so far:

    • Shadowblades grant proficiency with shortswords while equipped and now cost less SP (5sp per shadowblade, so 10sp for the dual)
    • Feydark Explorer grants Move Silently instead of Diplomacy (for, yanno, sneakin')
    • Capstone is getting a longer duration (10->15 seconds)
    • Offensive SLAs are getting slightly higher Max Caster Levels to help their DPS, and there's now a Master of Shadowblades feat in Epics to further let them scale in epics.
    • Offensive Shadowblade spells are also getting their cooldowns reduced (5 -> 4 seconds, 10 -> 8 seconds, 30 -> 25 seconds), which will also help their DPS
    • Greater Color Spray is getting its SP cost reduced to better match Gnome (10 -> 4sp) and a real tooltip (and also the ability to actually use your illusion bonuses and highest of int/wis/cha which, yanno, seems important :P)
    • The Familiars themselves are going to actually be ethereal to spells and projectiles so you can cast through them and not have your attack chain eaten by a friendly cute flying cat
    • Displacement T5 is being replaced by perma, always-on displacement. If this goes badly I'd like to assert now that this was Torc's idea and not my own.


    Thoughts?
    sounds good. why is the capstone +2 where most others except for archmage are +4 or +2/+2

    as a caster i'll never use a melee weapon so not sold on the shadowweapons. If I have to melee somethings gone way wrong... thrown shadow blades maybe more useful.

    familiars are seeming to be more useful than visual fluff... maybe add that they can hold all my cosmetics i don't use...
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  11. #111
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    (Joking suggestion) "T5 Pack Mule - Your familiar can now hold an extra 20 inventory items for you." -- Everyone would buy this tree and spec it for every storage alt :P

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post

    • Shadowblades grant proficiency with shortswords while equipped and now cost less SP (5sp per shadowblade, so 10sp for the dual)
    "Your talent with Illusions now allows you to trick yourself into thinking you know which end of a short sword is the business end."
    • Offensive Shadowblade spells are also getting their cooldowns reduced (5 -> 4 seconds, 10 -> 8 seconds, 30 -> 25 seconds), which will also help their DPS
    That's 4 seconds on the single target Shadowblade? If so I think that's right on the money. I was always just a hair too soon pressing that keybind.
    • The Familiars themselves are going to actually be ethereal to spells and projectiles so you can cast through them and not have your attack chain eaten by a friendly cute flying cat
    This will be nice if for no other reason than shooting my Pseudodragon in the back just seems rude. "You conjured me, if you don't want me here just say so."
    Last edited by straytext; 09-16-2020 at 07:27 PM. Reason: typos

  13. #113
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    Went into lamania to play with the tree. Here are my thoughts

    TLDR: it felt
    1. A little underpowered at 7
    2. At 12 the damage seems to be ok until a red name shows up and then the damage just isn't quite enough
    3. At 20 the damage fails to be relevant. did 5-10% of a mobs hp in ee 'a small problem'
    4. I can see myself dipping ~12 points into it for a few things, so it is not as bad as what I was thinking, but the top tiers still disappoint me.
    5. either raise the SLAs damage a little bit (doesn't have to be drastic) or add in another 1-2 damaging SLAs and it would have felt fine at levels 7 and 12. not sure about 20 though.


    I started as a level 7 bard because that's what my main that I transferred over was. no force items so I estimate ~70 spellpower less than it would be normally. Had to swap a feat for magical training so I lost empower.
    went to 3bc the stones run red and on elite while solo the damage felt alright, though I was meleeing things far more than I wanted to. on the plus side I was using shadow blades and they did enough damage, but I don't want to melee, I want to cast. The lower cooldowns as discussed will help with that a little bit.

    Went into the next quest on R1 to see how the scaling changed or didn't change things. Felt about the same, meleed more than I wanted to but greater color spray kept them cc'd enough that I didn't lose a lot of hp.

    Leveled to 12 as that is where the power spike should happen.
    grabbed a barovian scepter and ran through death house on elite and then R1.
    on elite things felt fine, but on R1 I ran into a champ after grabbing the key that just. would. not. die. It finally died after 2 full castings of ring of shadow blades. (cast ring of shadow blades, shadow blades, fan of shadow blades on cooldown. kiting though the ring as possible).

    Leveled up to 20
    Stepped into a small problem in magister with a few twists from fate singer. Ring of shadow blades did ~20% of a wolves hp, and the other 2 SLAs did 5-10% of their hp. Stepped out and back in after changing my enhancements to spell singer and horn of thunder was doing ~50% damage on the wolves. Not saying it has to be the same, but if it's not going to be competitive then its probably not going to be used. and that's on a bard.
    Last edited by neain2008; 09-16-2020 at 08:48 PM. Reason: added 5th TLDR
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  14. #114
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    Nightmares at t5! Illusionist's Nightmare?

    And do multi-selector that allows you to choose adding it to your melee attacks when you're using Illusory Weaponry, or as a spell. That way both the spell casters and melee users can benefit. Modify the spell point costs and cool downs appropriately.

    It's not as potent as KotC's Holy Retribution, or EK's Eldritch Tempest, but it fits the theme (illusions + force). I know, I know, no PKs for this tree (grumble grumble). Well, how about a fear effect instead of PK (Illusion DCs rather than Enchantment saves), along with Mind Thrust's 5-40 force damage? The fear aoe should be a burst rather than a cone, or maybe not.

    Even that's on the weak side. Fear is the same level Wizard spell as PK, but I don't believe most people choose Fear over PK unless they're spec'd in Necro. Probably not even then. Is there a way to have such a fear effect cause Frightened on a failed save instead of Shaken? Or even adding an Improved Twist Reality, i.e., a stacking will save debuff to the fear effect? That way you have a usable CC ability along with a bit more DPS.

    I have nothing against Displacement like a lot of people have, but I suppose Illusionist's Nightmare could go in that slot.

    Overall, I really like the improvements Lynnabel is contemplating in her last post, with the caveat that t5 is still seems underpowered for the reasons people have identified.
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  15. #115
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    As it stands, the tree has no core identity.
    It's not meant to focus on CC. It has a single CC ability and a way to boost its DC, but it's clearly not the core purpose.
    It's not meant to focus on survival. It has very little in the way of survival tools on its own.
    It's not a support tree. A single action-boost-like as its final core is all it gets for support.
    It's not a melee DPS tree. It creates a cool weapon, and has abilities that might remove some melees' multiple ability dependency, but it has no melee actives or ways to use that weapon beyond creating it. A Druid being able to cast the Flame Blade spell but not using any animal transformation is a very poor melee character.

    It's obviously meant to be doing damage with spells, with a clear focus on Force spells.
    The issue remains that Force spells are a very poor way of dealing damage in DDO currently, and this tree doesn't bring Force spells to usefulness by itself.

    The highest level Force spells are as follows:
    - Earthquake (which, as everyone knows, is always cast for the bludgeoning damage it deals, and not the crowd control effect)
    - Cometfall (another crowd control spell that wishes it dealt damage)
    - Blade Barrier (which this tree tries to emulate but diminishes its damage by making sure you can't have mobs run through multiple barriers in quick succession - and is seldom used nowadays)
    - Black Tentacles (great spell, no arguing that, but also mostly used for CC nowadays)

    Honorable Mentions:
    - Tactical Detonation (one of my favorite spells in the game, but the point is still crowd control, and it doesn't only deal force damage)
    - Ice Flowers (half of it is affected by Force spell power and crit. Still not a good spell)
    - Meteor Swarm (part of it is Bludgeoning, and it's being cast all the time so it sorta counts?)
    - Eldritch Blast (technically, the best, highest damage Eldritch Blast does almost as much Force damage as the game's best Force spell, but the only reason this makes EB remotely decent is its 0 mana, close to no cooldown constant pressure, added to pact damage)

    If the best spell Fire Savants could cast was their t5 Fireball, they'd be a very poor build.
    As it stands, the force spells from Illusionist are exactly that - about as good as the various Savants' SLAs - so that makes the tree look balanced on its own. It doesn't get as much oomph as Savants, but it's also a Universal tree, which I'd expect to be a bit worse than the class equivalent.
    If these force abilities are the best Illusionists can get, unless they get a severe power spike, their damage dealing dreams will forever be just as illusory.

    Give us more and higher level Force spells. Bigby's Crushing Hand (or the evil, more imposing Crushing Fist of Spite)

    Given the fact that both classes that are the best at dealing bursts of magical damage at their core (Sorcerer and Alchemist) now gain blanket immunity bypasses as part of their toolkits, the age old argument that Force (and Sonic) spells have to be weaker because they're resisted less often should be retired from DDO forever. (that or the blanket immunity bypasses should be; one cannot fit in the same design space as the other)
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  16. #116
    Community Member straytext's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocratesBastardSon View Post
    Nightmares at t5! Illusionist's Nightmare?

    And do multi-selector that allows you to choose adding it to your melee attacks when you're using Illusory Weaponry, or as a spell. That way both the spell casters and melee users can benefit. Modify the spell point costs and cool downs appropriately.
    Illusory Weaponry already gets Improved Nightmares on Vorpal. It's quite fun when it happens. You go from furious combat to... oh mob deleted.

  17. #117
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neain2008 View Post
    Went into lamania to play with the tree. Here are my thoughts

    TLDR: it felt
    1. A little underpowered at 7
    2. At 12 the damage seems to be ok until a red name shows up and then the damage just isn't quite enough
    3. At 20 the damage fails to be relevant. did 5-10% of a mobs hp in ee 'a small problem'
    4. I can see myself dipping ~12 points into it for a few things, so it is not as bad as what I was thinking, but the top tiers still disappoint me.
    5. either raise the SLAs damage a little bit (doesn't have to be drastic) or add in another 1-2 damaging SLAs and it would have felt fine at levels 7 and 12. not sure about 20 though.
    Low spell damage seems to be a common complaint, so I'll take a crack at it...

    The core issue here is spells scaling into epics generally, and has nothing to do with this tree per se. The basic d6+x * caster level formula (fireball, etc...) works well in low to mid level heroics, gets a bit too strong around chain lightning, and then meteor swarm replaces everything. (or multivial for alchemist). To do damage in epics you just cast meteor swarm on everything.
    Ideally, we need a new spell pass that heavily nerfs multivial/meteor swarm (down to d6+9 approximately, in line with the standard formula), then significantly buffs caster damage for all spells by about 50% as soon as you get to epic levels. Melee/ranged characters get a huge spike in damage from destinies to match the ~equal spike in monster stats, but casters don't. If this were to change then all spells, including SLAs in feydark would be viable in epics.

    Balance theorycraft aside, I'd recommend 4 things for feydark now that I've looked at it deeper from a caster perspective (not melee caster as I was previously):
    • Replace Familiar Flourish I/II by extending the Magical Attunement line down for an extra +4 force crit chance; (put cha/dex options in harper instead)
    • Replace Refraction in tier 3 with a force lightning bolt clone that does d6+2 damage per caster level, move Refraction effect to Bend Light in tier 2 instead.
    • Increase Fan of Shadowblades damage to d6+3 damage per caster level
    • Replace Displacement with PK that shares CD with gnome (for balance reasons)
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 09-17-2020 at 12:05 AM.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by straytext View Post
    Illusory Weaponry already gets Improved Nightmares on Vorpal. It's quite fun when it happens. You go from furious combat to... oh mob deleted.
    Did not know that! Very cool.

    EDIT: Ok, I looked it up and see that it's part of the summoned version of Illusory Blades. Extending that ability to those who use physical weapons would be welcome, even if it were lesser version, say a non-vorpal version of Nightmares like what Terror has.
    Last edited by SocratesBastardSon; 09-17-2020 at 12:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Because the Augment Summoning feat should do something with your Familiar, hence the Illusion DCs. The Familiar doesn't have stats and it's weird that if you wanted to enhance it the Augment Summoning feat doesn't do anything, so now it does something you want. To help get this idea across, I've made the tooltip a little more detailed. ("+1 Illusion DCs. The feats Augment Summoning and Improved Augment Summoning now each empower your familiar as well, and will each grant you +5 Force Spell Power and an additional +1 Illusion DCs.")
    Anything for Improved Augment Summoning?
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    An idea for replacing T5 displacement into something:

    1. [Action boost] You cast your next offensive spell as illusion school, manipulate it as a force spell to take benefits from force spellpower and force spell critical.
    2. [Displacement Ally] Cast Displacement on your ally or you. When you cast it on someone else, Displacement on the former target will be dispelled. (Think of Hymn)
    3. [Distracting Displacement] When you use the ability Distract, Allies near your familiar in the large area have a benefit of Displacement for the period of Distract.



    and a suggestion for better damaging of shadowblades:

    Core 1[1]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d6+2 per caster level and have 1 DC bonus. (DC 10+ 1)
    Core 2[3]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d6+3 per caster level and have 2 DC bonus. (DC 10+ 2)
    Core 3[6]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d6+4 per caster level and have 4 DC bonus. (DC 10+ 4)
    Core 4[12]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d6+6 per caster level and have 6 DC bonus. (DC 10+ 6)
    Core 5[18]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d8+8 per caster level and have 7 DC bonus. (DC 10+ 7)
    Core 6[20]: Your shadowblade spells do 1d10+12 per caster level and have 8 DC bonus, but also you have 3 caster levels more for shadowblade spells. (DC 10+ 8)
    Last edited by Targal; 09-17-2020 at 01:16 AM.
    Ghallanda Server
    Dragant, Palescale, Glimmerspell, Scalefavor
    Officer of DDO Korea Unlimited

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