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  1. #421

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    There are quite many mobs that are immune to Illusion spells like 'construct, undead, ooze, wisp' and any mob that is under Greater Heroism effect or fear-immune mobs.

    Can you add some illusion immunity removal enhancement in core or tier 5?

    Illusionist are very niche because some mobs are completely immune to it.

    That enhancement can be called "inevitable nightmare" or something.
    Last edited by draven1; 09-25-2020 at 08:55 PM.
    “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.
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  2. #422
    Community Member straytext's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draven1 View Post
    There are quite many mobs that are immune to Illusion spells like 'construct, undead, ooze, wisp' and any mob that is under Greater Heroism effect or fear-immune mobs.

    Can you add some illusion immunity removal enhancement in core or tier 5?

    Illusionist are very niche because some mobs are completely immune to it.

    That enhancement can be called "inevitable nightmare" or something.
    I don't see that happening. Those things are immune to illusions which attack Will largely because they're mindless. There's no "immunity" per se as much as there's no "there" there. If your Illusion spells don't work, use something else, or use the force SLAs which nothing is immune to. The tier 1 ability reduces will saves against offensive spells (PK) and the tier 4 ability adds stacking shattermantle to all the shadowblade attacks (single target, cone, ring, and summoned short swords).

  3. #423

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytext View Post
    I don't see that happening. Those things are immune to illusions which attack Will largely because they're mindless. There's no "immunity" per se as much as there's no "there" there. If your Illusion spells don't work, use something else, or use the force SLAs which nothing is immune to. The tier 1 ability reduces will saves against offensive spells (PK) and the tier 4 ability adds stacking shattermantle to all the shadowblade attacks (single target, cone, ring, and summoned short swords).
    For current DDO, Fire elementals are NOT immune to fire spells, undeads are NOT immune to negative spells.

    Is there any reason that shouldn't be applied this logic for illusion spells?
    “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.
    Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness.
    Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”
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  4. #424
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezom View Post
    If it looks like a martial tree, supports martial style, and plays like a martial tree... it's a "caster" tree. :P
    There does exist "Master's Touch", you know ...


    My Wizard was for a very long time running around with a sword and a shield, and concentrating on melee, with having a blade barrier and various AC buffing spells around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xezom View Post
    People dropped the charisma to hit and damage argument a long time ago when it was made clear it wasn't going anywhere.
    PDK ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin_of_Power View Post
    I was expecting more Illusionist spells in the Illusionist tree, since there are so few Illusionist spells already.

    Wall of Prismatic, some illusions that daze, shaken, fear, cause a heart attack. You get the idea.
    I thought something similar.
    Last edited by Alrik_Fassbauer; 09-26-2020 at 03:48 AM.
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  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by straytext View Post
    I don't see that happening. Those things are immune to illusions which attack Will largely because they're mindless. There's no "immunity" per se as much as there's no "there" there.
    Counterpoint: Bards can use Fascinate, a mind-affecting ability, on constructs, vermin and undead, even though there's no 'there' there.
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  6. #426
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Counterpoint: Bards can use Fascinate, a mind-affecting ability, on constructs, vermin and undead, even though there's no 'there' there.
    Counter-counter-point: Illusions are mind-affecting, when not shadow-imitative, so bards, who can use sonic and divine elements in their control abilities do have an advantage when it comes to being able to apply more influences to their control effects.

    Of course, that's just standard illusions; Since Illusions *can* become shadow-imitative [ie, partially real], there's no reason they wouldn't be registered as such by the creatures mentioned (though creatures more attuned to shadows and/or based in spiritual elements, such as wraiths, might be exceptions).

    To simplify that, your overall point about illusionists being treated similarly to bards is reasonable, but bards being able to affect the creatures in question may not necessarily be because they're avoiding the issue of cognizance, but because bards are using methods which don't rely on cognizance to begin with.
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  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    Counter-counter-point: Illusions are mind-affecting, when not shadow-imitative, so bards, who can use sonic and divine elements in their control abilities do have an advantage when it comes to being able to apply more influences to their control effects.
    Fascinate doesn't stop being a sonic, mind-affecting ability when used on undead.
    The fact you could excuse that ability as the Bard adding more power through other sources to it goes against canon.
    Being able to add divine power doesn't make undead more susceptible to a Cleric's Symbol of Stunning.

    By lore, they just learn to affect the more primitive part of the mind. Music of the Makers obviously refers to the basic concept of a construct obeying its creator, while Music of the Dead does the same for undead and their necromantic origins.
    Note that it doesn't really fascinate those either - it just copies the same symptoms.

    There's several innovative ways to make an illusion work on a mindless creature too. Illusory walls block off an Iron Golem about as safely as normal walls would, because it won't try to force itself through a normal wall, and cannot disbelieve the illusion.
    Enough illusory walls, and you've got a hand-crafted illusory paralysis (and we're only at pure images, non-tactile illusions - you can do MUCH better if you go beyond first level spells)
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  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Counterpoint: Bards can use Fascinate, a mind-affecting ability, on constructs, vermin and undead, even though there's no 'there' there.
    I love the politeness of the point/counter-point rhetoric y'all are using. :-)

    To jump in on the subject of what DDO allows to happen vs. what would, at first glance, seem reasonable; don't forget they modified Assassinate to work against everything for simplicity's sake after Falconry Tree came out. Therefore, I see no reason why enhanced Illusion affects cannot be granted to the tree in terms of sweetening the pot.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho-sa View Post
    I love the politeness of the point/counter-point rhetoric y'all are using. :-)

    To jump in on the subject of what DDO allows to happen vs. what would, at first glance, seem reasonable; don't forget they modified Assassinate to work against everything for simplicity's sake after Falconry Tree came out. Therefore, I see no reason why enhanced Illusion affects cannot be granted to the tree in terms of sweetening the pot.
    The problem remains that there are basically only two useful illusion spells, PK and color spray, and I know at least the blindness part of color spray already works on undead, so we are back to PK. That change would definitely make PK builds more scary (pun intended), for better or worse. It's actually a huge weakness of PK as it's blocked by either Mind-affecting, Death or Fear immunity. Removing one or two of those might not make it OP I guess, and would just make it on par with similar single-target instant kills.

    It would cement this tree's role as the PK tree though, but we all knew that was unavoidable since they didn't add any useful illusion spells. It's the sorc PK tree already with just the DC bonuses in it.

    EDIT: Actually, adding an enhancement that makes illusion spells ignore mind-affecting immunity would be a decent way of making them somewhat relevant. Still, it's unfortunate that there are only two active illusion spells in addition to color spray: Hypnotic Pattern at SL2 and PK at SL4, and most dislike the graphics of hypnotic pattern to begin with :-)
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 09-27-2020 at 07:37 AM.

  10. #430
    Community Member straytext's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    It would cement this tree's role as the PK tree though, but we all knew that was unavoidable since they didn't add any useful illusion spells. It's the sorc PK tree already with the DC bonuses in it.

    EDIT: Actually, adding an enhancement that makes illusion spells ignore mind-affecting immunity would be a decent way of making them somewhat relevant. Still, it's unfortunate that there are only two active illusion spells in the game: Hypnotic Pattern at SL2 and PK at SL4, and most dislike the graphics of hypnotic pattern to begin with :-)
    It would also completely invalidate the point of specialization, the flavor of the various schools, or anything having to do with D&D. For all the alterations SSG makes translating the game to an MMO let's not completely abandon the original game just so we can have one spell work on everything all the time. How boring would that be?

    And before you say, "but they already have", let's not add any more then.

  11. #431
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    It would just make it work on the same things that FoD does.

    I didn't want to make this into a PK tree either, but they need to give casters some other useful mechanic instead then. Currently the main bits in the tree are DCs to cast PK/Color spray with, dinky Force SLAs, free Enlarge and buffs for melee users. By end game, only the DCs and Enlarge are of use for a caster build. Even Color Spray is obsoleted by Mass Hold, so this leaves PK as the only reason to use illusion DCs for.

    Does an end-game caster use weapons? No. Well there goes half the benefits. Do they use color spray? Situational at best. Do they use the Force SLAs? Building for Meteor is just so much better. Ever since the spell pass, elemental arcane DPS spells make Force spells obsolete by L12 or so. The reworked T5 just saves you the 20 spell points of casting Displacement every 2 minutes.

    If they are not going to add new spells, I really think they should at least augment the Invis SLA to make it worth using in reaper. Something like a T5 self-only 3-second 65% incorp break-on-attack, similar to bat swarm but triggering off the Invis SLA. You could even call it Mirror Image.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 09-27-2020 at 08:22 AM.

  12. #432
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    It's funny when people argue the logic of magic lol.
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  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    It's funny when people argue the logic of magic lol.
    Magic is only as good as the limits that bind it.
    Magic that does absolutely everything without limit is unbalanced sure, but the real issue is that it's ABSOLUTELY BORING.

    There must be internal logic to any universe's magic for it to be interesting.
    You have to have a reason for magic to work in a certain way, even though that reason might seem innocuous.
    No matter how cool he might have been, if Gandalf gained the power to summon meteors out of thin air, a feat of magic entirely unknown to Middle Earth (a low magic setting), it'd break immersion.
    The readers accept that there are things magic cannot do in the realm created by Tolkien.
    Mighty wizard Lord Voldemort couldn't instantly kill a group of people, couldn't be in multiple places at once, and couldn't destroy a whole countryside by just pointing his wand in the general vicinity.

    The limits to magic in the realm of D&D are very tiny by comparison, but the limits and logic attributed to each school of magic are what keeps them apart.
    Anything that breaks the limits of a world's magical systems has to have a decent explanation behind them, or else, the people enjoying that world will not easily accept that the rules they've learned were established can so easily be broken.
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  14. #434
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    The limits to magic in the realm of D&D are very tiny by comparison, but the limits and logic attributed to each school of magic are what keeps them apart.
    Anything that breaks the limits of a world's magical systems has to have a decent explanation behind them, or else, the people enjoying that world will not easily accept that the rules they've learned were established can so easily be broken.
    The practical limitations are placed usually inside the setting (world state). Not a lot of Mages live the day so they can cast a one time level 6th spell, let alone cast level 9th spells all day long (as in DDO).

    D&D rules as an abstract system allows magic to go quite far, DDO pushed this even further by making every caster essentially a Sorcerer by using a spell points pool, practically allowing to cast level 9th spells endlessly. ( rest shrines, also some spell points dropping in reaper/regen items/conc opp, etc.. extend this even further)

    D&D essentially says you cannot make something from nothing, you always tap into the world's invisible forces, compose it in a pattern and release it in some new shape/state => spell manifestation. What happens after I dont recall if the source materials explain if the energy flows back into balance or echoes/waves thru the world changing everything else ( in the latter sense magic is even more powerful, as it affects everything there after).

    D&D campaigns usually focus on smaller inner conflicts ( rarely interplanar), so while an arcane might have powers to "terraform" a planet, that is not likely to happen simply because the abstract layer allows an ability to reach that height.

  15. #435
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    Hey Lynn,

    If I am a Druid or Druid Past Life and summon Flameblades, how would they interact with Shadowblades?

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    D&D essentially says you cannot make something from nothing, you always tap into the world's invisible forces, compose it in a pattern and release it in some new shape/state => spell manifestation. What happens after I dont recall if the source materials explain if the energy flows back into balance or echoes/waves thru the world changing everything else ( in the latter sense magic is even more powerful, as it affects everything there after).

    D&D campaigns usually focus on smaller inner conflicts ( rarely interplanar), so while an arcane might have powers to "terraform" a planet, that is not likely to happen simply because the abstract layer allows an ability to reach that height.
    I've played epic campaigns where being able to create your own demiplane to use as a base of operation became modus operandi.
    Enough prep time and a paranoid arcane caster later, that base of operation was rendered nigh-impregnable.

    As for whether the world takes its shape back, permanent magic always creates ripples.
    The most prominent example is undeath. Spreads like a disease, the prolonged presence of undead in an area increase the chance more bodies suddenly rise from their graves, and their presence creates a subtle but tangible link to the Negative Energy Plane, creating an unnatural chill in places they inhabit.

    3.5 magic can do anything. Really, truly anything. I've yet to be given a single example of things sufficiently strong magic cannot do, even without going into epic magic.
    The only proper answer to magic short of divine intervention (and even then) is magic.
    The real limit to magic is that while it can do anything (I really mean that), a single caster cannot do everything, or, at the very least, cannot do everything in a single day's work (unless they start playing around with time, in which case, 'a single day's work' becomes relative)
    The only thing that truly limits casters is the threat of other casters (aka The DM) figuring out you're abusing your power.
    The only limits in 3.5 magic is school specialty. Necromancers have issues dealing with constructs, Enchanters cannot create things from thin air, Conjuration deals poorly with creatures' minds...
    Someone specializing in one such school can use the school's strengths much better, but, most of the time, they also exemplify both strengths AND weaknesses, with few exceptions overcoming one glaring weakness through great personal sacrifice.

    5e added some cheap tricks to make an infinitely renewable army of your level 17 wizard so long as you have 8 hours of prep time, but it's nowhere near the power level that made 3.5 casters literal gods among men.
    Last edited by Xgya; 09-28-2020 at 12:41 PM.
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  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho-sa View Post
    Hey Lynn,

    If I am a Druid or Druid Past Life and summon Flameblades, how would they interact with Shadowblades?
    Given how summoned weapons and weapons enchantments work I'm pretty sure you'd have to choose between Flameblades or Shadowblades as far as the summon is concerned. If my memory serves correctly (been a long time since I played a melee druid) Flameblades can be enchanted with weapon effects, so then you'd have to choose if you wanted the Shadowblade enchantment on them or some other enchantment.

    Having two level scaling/improving benefits would be pretty cool. Still don't think it'd be enough to keep them useful in late epics/legionaries vs Sentient Weapons but could add some cool extra power to them.

    These are of course assumptions. I didn't personally test them out on Lamannia when it was up. Curious what the answer here is too. Do both of the level scaling effects work on the Flameblades? If so, I might be having a go at trying that out.
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  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xezom View Post
    Given how summoned weapons and weapons enchantments work I'm pretty sure you'd have to choose between Flameblades or Shadowblades as far as the summon is concerned. If my memory serves correctly (been a long time since I played a melee druid) Flameblades can be enchanted with weapon effects, so then you'd have to choose if you wanted the Shadowblade enchantment on them or some other enchantment.

    Having two level scaling/improving benefits would be pretty cool. Still don't think it'd be enough to keep them useful in late epics/legionaries vs Sentient Weapons but could add some cool extra power to them.

    These are of course assumptions. I didn't personally test them out on Lamannia when it was up. Curious what the answer here is too. Do both of the level scaling effects work on the Flameblades? If so, I might be having a go at trying that out.
    Made me think of asking if we could get the Flameblade spell to work on existing weapons as a third option given the shadowblades get that.

    +1 enhancement, ghost touch and unbreakable for Shadow
    +1 enhancement and flaming for Flame (it's a level 2 spell, given it's only one element and self-cast, it should be a tinge better than Elemental weapons from Artificer)
    Last edited by Xgya; 09-29-2020 at 01:50 PM.
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