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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    - quicken worked for me. I used it.
    It works on some Alchemist spells, but not others, for no reason I can figure out. Some bottles can be thrown faster, others cannot. In particular, the admixtures cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Wrt. CCing I found that Mass Hold still outperforms anything the Alchemist has in overall value. How did you find that comparison?
    Alchemist don't have a good way to CC Reapers, which Hold works on. Other than that (fairly big) point, Alchemist CC is not inferior. Some mobs have FoM, some have high Spell Resistance, Alch has easy ways around that. Glue has super-long range, ignores FoM, ignores Spell Resistance. Freeze for some reason is not reduced in duration in Reaper the way other CC is. Oh, let me add that:

    - Alchemist CC spells should have their duration reduced in Reaper the same way other CC spells do
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    I don't know why we ever need to nerf anything. It's a PvE game and the powercreep is so high it can't be stopped.
    I don't believe power "creep" will be stopped, but it certainly could be stopped. The fact that it's PvE is precisely why we need nerfs, and more nerfs, and even more nerfs. Player power is vastly out of whack with content difficulty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You're projecting your personal play-style. To some of us, the game is played at 30, and 1 to 29 is just an inconvenience we have to put up with before we get to 30.
    30 isn't special, sorry. There is no endgame, the cap will be raised on a regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Apparently, a bunch of people think a secondary caster, a mere 6-spell-level caster, should somehow be compared to actual full-caster classes like Sorc et cetera.

    I deny that very premise. Don't compare Alchemist's insta-kills or CC or heals to Sorc or FvS, compare them to other "Specialist" 6-spell-level casters, like Bard or Arti.
    You're comparing the most recent pay class to free **** from a decade ago? LOL. There's nothing "secondary" about one class vs the other except their pay to win vs free status.

    All that aside, seems you have a personal grudge against the class that doesn't match up with dev intentions. You may not like that alchemist is fun to play and old free to play stuff isn't, but that's what we signed up for playing a game that gets most of its revenue outside of the subscription system. Best way to object is to stop giving them money, you should try it. Posting angry opinions on the forum doesn't actually advance the nerf schedule, inquistive pretty much proved the nerf will come exactly when the business model demands it and not a second before.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Educate me. I'm seeing almost equivalent levels between my ranger and alchemist and one class can sorta heal me and not a lot else and the other can one shot mobs a mile away.

    What am I not seeing?
    Anything, good or bad, related to Alchemist. I have no comment on your Ranger build that happens to have an Alchemist splash you don't use. But how can you have a meaningful perspective on Alchemist at all? You haven't tried it.

    When you have actually played an Alchemist, as an Alchemist, instead of a Ranger with some Alchemist levels, you will have a basis to talk about Alchemist's power level. But since you have said you've already lost out at least 6 Alchemist levels, you're never even going to be able to see top-tier Alchemist abilities unless you reincarnate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    There is no endgame
    I'm not sure why you are baldly lying. That's clearly false.

    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    the cap will be raised on a regular basis.
    Only if a certain group of people, who explicitly said that 30 was going to be the permanent level cap, turn out to be a bunch of people who lie. But I've already said, publicly, multiple times, that if the level cap goes up, I'm quitting DDO for good.

    As much as you want to pretend there is no end game, DDO had a vibrant end game when level cap was 20, that was destroyed when the level cap went up. It had seemed like they learned from their mistake, because they promised that 30 would be the permanent level cap, giving us some stability, and have actually built up a good variety of end game content again now.

    I'm not sure why they would want to destroy all the work they've done creating a new end game at 30 over the past couple of years, but if they do decide to destroy end game again, I'm sure not waiting around through another 7-year-long dark age.

    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    All that aside, seems you have a personal grudge against the class
    ...
    You may not like that alchemist is fun to play...
    You have no idea what you're talking about. I am playing it. I have no grudge against it. It is fun. But the fact that I am playing it is what makes it easy for me to see that it's also OP and needs nerfing.

    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    Best way to object is to stop giving them money, you should try it.
    I already did that a couple of years ago, after what they did to Cleric. In theory, I'm quite willing to become a paying customer again, if they ever corrected their mistakes, but honestly, I don't expect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    But I've already said, publicly, multiple times, that if the level cap goes up, I'm quitting DDO for good.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm not sure why you are baldly lying. That's clearly false.



    Only if a certain group of people, who explicitly said that 30 was going to be the permanent level cap, turn out to be a bunch of people who lie. But I've already said, publicly, multiple times, that if the level cap goes up, I'm quitting DDO for good.

    As much as you want to pretend there is no end game, DDO had a vibrant end game when level cap was 20, that was destroyed when the level cap went up. It had seemed like they learned from their mistake, because they promised that 30 would be the permanent level cap, giving us some stability, and have actually built up a good variety of end game content again now.

    I'm not sure why they would want to destroy all the work they've done creating a new end game at 30 over the past couple of years, but if they do decide to destroy end game again, I'm sure not waiting around through another 7-year-long dark age.
    It is going up to 32 with the release of Feywild expansion this year. That was already announced.
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  9. #49
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    I don't think Alchemist is out of line in terms of DPS or control effects compared to other casters. They have too many drawbacks, even though they have good versatility, because of the way their abilities work.

    1. SP Cost
    Many Alchemist spells have higher than standard SP cost compared to similar spells. This makes sense for adaptations that add changes, like AoE, and for some of the higher level spells like the ones that do damage and debuff enemies, but doesn't always actually seem commensurate at lower levels, especially with reliability issues with thrown projectiles connecting effectively to optimize damage, respond to healing needs, etc, and the fact that fixing the biggest problems with throwing projectiles for spells are fixed by a metamagic that's going to eat even more SP. Basically, this means that Alchemists are spending way more SP than traditional casters, but they don't have an SP max bonus like Sorc or FvS, so they have to really limit their burst damage and control effects until it's necessary for longer quests that don't have shrines (or burn a ton of SP potions). This means that for players who are not SP optimized with item SP cost reductions and a high SP cap from intellect and possibly SP items will probably run dry on casting juice. Nerfing this would make Alchemists basically unplayable by means of sustainability.
    2. No decent non-spell damage
    Alchemist uses throwing weapons for its primary class favored weapon. All the weapon based Alchemists I've seen are either pretty poor or just go Inquisitive. That's not to say there's no synergy, or that you can't make a somewhat decent thrower build (as far as thrower builds go, that is), but it's certainly not going to be a top tier ranged DPS by any measure. Nerfing this won't really matter, because, again, just go Inquisitive or caster, your damage won't be good with throwing daggers (though I will say that Return to Sender is a nice utility throwing weapon with a caster build given the paralysis chance and multi-projectile, but that's far from being *good*)
    3. Poor party synergy
    Alchemists get some awesome buff abilities that use Alchemical bonuses, so they are very powerful with stacking buffs. The problem is that almost all these buffs are self only, meaning that Alchemists cannot help their team. This means that support Alchemists are basically non-existent. Couple that with the issues with curative admixtures taking travel time and being unreliable with AoE and hit detection and you can't even make a particularly good healer. They do have some potential with temporary HP from the Apothecary tree and decent poison damage synergy, but the temporary HP is pretty limited compared to, say, Aura Warlocks and does require spell casting (remember, most Alchemist support spells are either self-only or suffer from timing and hit detection issues) so that's pretty poor. Nerfing this further would be basically impossible without just straight up killing curative admixtures, but I don't think nerfing Alchemist as a support role would cause any problems.

    If you're seeing Alchemists who are doing god-tier shenanigans, it's probably not because of Alchemist, it's despite it. Their gear, strategy, past lives, and other benefits are quite possibly the reason why they are able to perform well. Alchemist, as a class, is interested and does have some good features, but it certainly is not overpowered compared to, say, Sorcerer builds. The lack of reliable, quick acting, low cooldown DC casting, limited spell list, and expensive spells make them much less useful than a more traditional caster for the typical caster shenanigans, and their lack of compelling non-spell options makes them pretty poor otherwise. They do get some neat things, but most of these things are something that either other classes get better or can be better gained by dipping into a second class than rolling a full Alchemist. Comparing them to most classes reveals that they have a lot of gimmick but very little substance. The biggest, strongest benefits they can get are usually stance based, but this means they lose basically a third of their spell list or have to constantly switch stances and don't synergize with other players, classes, feats, or enhancement trees. I think the best things they have are probably the 12 second buffs when switching stances, but that means that you only get twelve seconds before you have to rotate your spells back, which means two different school spell casts usually to clear the unwanted element, burning SP on spells that may not actually help much. Your SLAs would be good if you could take from all three trees, but you can probably only take from one or two trees and they can be pretty situational (or just unreliable, like the Apothecary's Spill the Bad Stuff, which in addition to using random elements for damage has the classic DDO "Cones that shoot from your feet and never hit detect" problem), force you into close range (and you have very few defensive options with no armor proficiency and ASF), or suffer from unreliable hit detection. Inconsistent metamagics also hurt Alchemist- Quicken being more or less effective depending on spells (particularly hurting admixtures) is a major one.

    If anything, Alchemist needs fixes (not necessarily buffs). Accelerate Spell shouldn't be a metamagic you have to burn a feat on that costs SP. It should be a freely granted feat, not cost SP, or better yet both. If the engine actually let your spell potions hit properly most of the time, it wouldn't be necessary, but it's a solution to a problem with the game that shouldn't be needed. There should be no reason why a potion thrown on a flat plane to an ally shouldn't hit because they move erratically. Potions shouldn't need their target to be alive to detonate once thrown. Spells that aren't meaningfully distinct or better than their non-Alchemist counterparts shouldn't cost more SP. Hit detection circles on thrown potions, especially curative admixtures, should be more consistent and ideally visible to players so we can figure out why things aren't working and try to actually use them effectively (instead of trying to guess whether it's lag, poor hit detection, or an angry deity causing us to not get heals out properly). There should be a way, like Precise Shot, to target mobs in the center of groups, even if it is a feat Alchemist has to select, so that AoE hits aren't dependent on random kobolds having a "Get down, Mr. President!" moment and targeting actually becomes more important than randomly lobbing. If these fixes happened, and Alchemist was suddenly a top tier class, then it would be time for nerfs. But there is no reason to nerf a class that's already frustrating to play because they're fundamentally dysfunctional. I think it's telling that Alchemist is one of the (if not the) least played classes even though it often gets accused of being OP. On paper, Alchemist might be great, but if you've played one I doubt anyone is saying that they're in a good spot right now. Favored Soul is only class even similar in population. Considering that Alchemist is new enough that there are probably still people doing class lives for Alchemist (I know I am on my main, which has taken forever because I can't do anything when the servers are laggy), that's pretty awful. If Alchemist gets nerfed in any meaningful way, it will be the death of the class. There may be a few spells that are over or under performing, and there may be some meta breaking hidden builds that would make it a popular class, but this knee jerk forum reactionary call for nerfs without any specific feedback or details just reveals that no one plays Alchemist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You're projecting your personal play-style. To some of us, the game is played at 30, and 1 to 29 is just an inconvenience we have to put up with before we get to 30.
    People can choose to focus on whatever levels they want, but when they say a class is OP because of what they can do at level 30 it is never the class that is the problem. Gear is OP at 30 (starting at 29 really). All the stupid, "This class is OP because it can solo R7+" comments exist because of level 29 gear. Classes don't need nerfs. If something is wrong, nerf the gear that is causing it.

    In addition, "This class is OP because it can solo R7+" comments only exist because certain players know the game very well. Most players cannot even solo R2. A very significant portion of players cannot solo even R1 on any but the easiest quests. Most players don't need a nerf. If something must be nerfed because a few really good players are too powerful then the changes should target those players and not everyone that plays the class.

    All too often people use level 30 as an example and then ask for changes that nerf the class starting right at level 1. That is a real problem.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Apparently, a bunch of people think a secondary caster, a mere 6-spell-level caster, should somehow be compared to actual full-caster classes like Sorc et cetera.

    I deny that very premise. Don't compare Alchemist's insta-kills or CC or heals to Sorc or FvS, compare them to other "Specialist" 6-spell-level casters, like Bard or Arti.
    For the record. I strongly disagree with you here and will continue to compare the alchemist to the sorcerer as those two play similarly in many way to me. I respect that you see it differently though but still disagree.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    For the record. I strongly disagree with you here and will continue to compare the alchemist to the sorcerer as those two play similarly in many way to me.
    I'm not saying they don't play similarly; I'm saying they shouldn't. They should be balanced against similar classes. The extent to which they play similarly is proof that Alch is OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Apparently, a bunch of people think a secondary caster, a mere 6-spell-level caster, should somehow be compared to actual full-caster classes like Sorc et cetera.

    I deny that very premise. Don't compare Alchemist's insta-kills or CC or heals to Sorc or FvS, compare them to other "Specialist" 6-spell-level casters, like Bard or Arti.
    But Alchemist *isn't* a secondary caster. That's the thing. They have six spell levels, yes, but what else do they have? They are, for all intents and purposes, casters. They can't do anything else, especially because throwers are in absolutely garbage shape. Alchemist throwers are much worse than a full caster inquisitive for ranged damage. Comparing them as if they're half casters or three quarter casters ignores that they don't have anything else. Artificers are the closest parallel, and they have pets, lockpicking, trapfinding, runearms, crossbows, and not entirely awful (though certainly not top tier) spells. Alchemist has... throwing. If there is anything else, something I am just utterly blind to, then let me know, but Alchemist has nothing compared to a bunch of other specialists. Even if you want to compare them to other non-full casters, look at Warlock. Warlock, for a very long time, was one of the top DPS options with shenanigans builds, to the point where it has been nerfed several times and is still in a good place- and they have Eldritch Blast in order to have unlimited firepower, even if you burn through your limited SP. If you look at Bard, you get a ton of cool shiny buffs that you don't even have to cast (and, quite frankly, you can do some pretty shenanigans damage with Bards, even compared to Alchemist- I don't know if it's nearly as great as the best Alchemists, but I know that I've done some pretty shiny DPS casting on Bard compared to my DPS casting on Alchemist, which granted both are probably not optimal builds, so grain of salt) and a ton of CC and utility spells- and those buffs share with your party, unlike Alchemist, who is dependent on buffs from other builds to be fully optimal and yet contributes next to nothing for party strength.

    If you want to compare Alchemists to other specialists/half-casters/three-quarter-casters you need to look at what all they get besides casting. Alchemists get no armor proficiency, crappy hit dice, and limited options, and, for all intents and purposes, are basically casters. They have six spell levels, yes, but those six spell levels are basically all they get. I think that Alchemist is a stronger caster than Arti (not quite sure on Bard because utility casting doesn't compare quite as neatly as CC/damage/insta-kills/heals, though I think that Wail of the Banshee is a much better insta-kill than anything Alchemist gets with Frog. Alch probably has better CC, but there's some debate there with things like Otto's Sphere and stuff like that). Alchemist gets some good feats- Int to damage (again, crippled because thrower builds, but still not garbage), evasion, caster level increases, etc. However, almost none of these feats are auto-grant. Artificer, Monk, Rogue, FvS, etc. get a bunch of those things automatically, while Alchemist only gets a handful of bonus feats, a bonus to potions, an answer to poison (so Forgotten Realms drow will be a bit better balanced, but that's about it), and Multitude of Missiles (so, throwing buff). On paper, that's not awful, because it is an option- but throwing weapons are in a pretty bad place, both with a dearth of good named throwers and the limitation to simple weapons (ruling out shurikens, axes, and hammers) meaning you get darts and daggers only. You could do a Vistani Poison build, but even that is probably going to struggle against a random FvS Inquisitive. Even Arti, with its meh casting, at least gets kinda decent crossbow damage and a pet to (when its AI isn't trash) do a bit of something. It's kind of a bad spot for Alchemist, because it's a specialist with one real option, which means if you compare it to other specialists in casting power, you wind up with a weaker caster with no other options. That's also operating on the assumption that Alchemist is stronger than other casters at the moment, but I don't think it is, especially with the jankiness that is Alchemist spells. You can get robbed of your spells by the environment; you can get robbed of your spells by lag; you can get robbed of your spells because your party member you were trying to heal moved in a way the server didn't like and your potion never connected. Sure, if you can land your pots, I think they're pretty powerful- the damage on Alchemist's AoEs can be amazing, but only while your battery lasts. Alchemist has half the base SP of Sorcerer, and significantly less SP than Wizard.

    I'm just saying, Alchemist is in the specialist category for fluff reasons. They are not specialists in any other way, shape, or form because they are almost entirely built around casting and have one other gimmick through feats (you can run while using potions, wow, what a specialist ability). Granted, they have access to spell effects from traditionally both divine and arcane casters, so it's complicated- but it's definitely not unreasonable to consider them alongside other full casters like FvS and Sorc if they're basically just spell casters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    In addition, "This class is OP because it can solo R7+" comments only exist because certain players know the game very well. Most players cannot even solo R2. A very significant portion of players cannot solo even R1 on any but the easiest quests.
    Most players cannot solo epic elite at level, let alone anything in reaper.

  15. #55
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    Are Alchemist OP? Compared to most things players are playing, no. Are they OP once you figure them out, probably. Can most players figure them out? Nope!!!

    I'm of the mind they are like Rogue Assassins prior to Vistani release and the Rogue pass. Certain players could abuse the class and people took notice but most players couldn't replicate it. This is how I see Alchemist currently. You have a small group who can abuse their mechanics but the majority of players can't. That is also why I don't consider them OP once you look at most melee builds and sorcerers. At 30, they all do better in the hands of an average player than the average alchemist.

    I know everyone thinks they are special, 1337, or what ever the kids are calling themselves now when they play DDO (or any video game) but Alchemist proves which ones are and which ones are NOT. Will it get nerfed? Once the next toy comes around I am sure.
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    On my 2nd Alch life. Here's some thoughts :

    To the casual observer it's way over powered, but that's also because they are comparing it with with their less than optimal build. For me, I'm not top tier, but I think I'm above average. I've spent the time on past lives and gear. My druid/barbarian is on par with my alc. A good sorc is better.

    I can have 1/2 my bottles have zero effect. I throw, someone fingers my target, the bottles vanish. I try to heal, they move, the bottle hits a wall for no effect. I have to manage my mana far more than I do when playing sorc/wiz/fvs.

    I've also played in parties with another alcs and some way under perform me, and others are similar or better. No one complained the under performers were way over powered, however, it was stated that I was.. so go figure. If it's nerfed, it won't be played at all. L1-7ish are painful. Very painful.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    But Alchemist *isn't* a secondary caster. That's the thing. They have six spell levels, yes, but what else do they have? They are, for all intents and purposes, casters. They can't do anything else, especially because throwers are in absolutely garbage shape. Alchemist throwers are much worse than a full caster inquisitive for ranged damage. Comparing them as if they're half casters or three quarter casters ignores that they don't have anything else. Artificers are the closest parallel, and they have pets, lockpicking, trapfinding, runearms, crossbows, and not entirely awful (though certainly not top tier) spells. Alchemist has... throwing. If there is anything else, something I am just utterly blind to, then let me know, but Alchemist has nothing compared to a bunch of other specialists. Even if you want to compare them to other non-full casters, look at Warlock. Warlock, for a very long time, was one of the top DPS options with shenanigans builds, to the point where it has been nerfed several times and is still in a good place- and they have Eldritch Blast in order to have unlimited firepower, even if you burn through your limited SP. If you look at Bard, you get a ton of cool shiny buffs that you don't even have to cast (and, quite frankly, you can do some pretty shenanigans damage with Bards, even compared to Alchemist- I don't know if it's nearly as great as the best Alchemists, but I know that I've done some pretty shiny DPS casting on Bard compared to my DPS casting on Alchemist, which granted both are probably not optimal builds, so grain of salt) and a ton of CC and utility spells- and those buffs share with your party, unlike Alchemist, who is dependent on buffs from other builds to be fully optimal and yet contributes next to nothing for party strength.
    Well, I think theory and reality are a little misaligned though. If Alchemist's Thrower side was viable, it's be pretty comparable to Artificer. It's like if crossbows were garbage for meta reasons, Artificer wouldn't immediately become a Primary Caster class.

    Your argument is that Alchemist is a Primary Caster because Alchemist Thrower stuff is bad; not that Alchemist doesn't have other options. If throwing suddenly was buffed to be competitive, Alchemist would have that... plus casting.

    Alchemist *should be* a Secondary Caster, it just isn't right now because some of the secondary parts aren't viable.

    -----

    I also wish Alchemist could provide cool party buffs; I mean what's the point of making these cool potions of power and stuff if you can't load the Barbarian up with them? Gimme some roid rage, Bane-style action.

    ------

    From my personal perspective, I haven't played Alchemist yet. All the ones I've met near endgame shred stuff in mid-Reaper with like a single Multivial obliterating an entire pack of mobs. It definitely seems more like Sorc in playstyle, although I haven't seen any build variance and I haven't seen a lot of Alchemists (or any in low levels).

    I understand there's a lot of buggy/non-WAI behavior with regards to vial performance, and that I'm probably running with well-built vets, but my experience with them is that Multivial seems like Meteor Swarm+ which is pretty strong.
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    compare the alchemist to the sorcerer as those two play similarly in many way to me.
    On the design end, we definitely wanted caster Alchemist to play this way, so I'm happy to hear this :)

    Behind the scenes, we chose 6 levels versus 9 levels to give players more freedom in spell selection. It's not meant to imply that they're not a real spellcaster.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 07-06-2020 at 10:28 AM.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I see multiple comparisons saying 6 spell level specialists should not nuke like a pure 9 spell level nuker...

    ...by some of the same folks who advocated nerfing the 9 level nukers only a short time ago.

    Dont want thing B to be as powerful as thing A? Dont advocate for nerfing thing A.

    Advocacy to nerf thing A then later advocacy to nerf thing B because its better than thing A is a logical contradiction. Its that much better because you demanded, and received, the nerf to thing A you so adamantly desired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  20. #60
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Advocacy to nerf thing A then later advocacy to nerf thing B because its better than thing A is a logical contradiction.
    There's no contradiction if you think both need nerfing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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