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  1. #1
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    Default Divine Vessel - Please review

    Divine Vessel (Warsoul and Warpriest T5 special attack) is drastically lacking.
    It sounds great, a 5W cleave attack that deals some extra light and fire dmg. Not as powerful as Eldritch tempest, but not bad.

    The issue is the way to build it up.
    You need to stack 25 charges of divine conduit by hitting mobs. But you can only gain one charge per second. Not only that, the charges decay after 5 seconds... So to build this up, you need to hit things for 25 seconds non-stop.
    On top of that it shares CD with Great Cleave...

    Compare that to attacks such as:
    - Avenging Cleave (KoTC T5), also shares CD with great cleave, causes vulnerability, but has no other CD or charges;
    - Holly retribution (KoTC T5), has its own CD, deals additional dmg and stat dmg, restores smites, vorpal to evil;
    - Eldritch Tempest (EK T5), also shares CD with great cleave, extra force dmg AoE, knocksdown, +10 crit range +3 crit multi;
    Those are all better than Divine Vessel, easier to use and require the same amount of investment (T5).

    I'd like to propose a few things for Divine Vessel to make it more in line with other T5 cleave attacks:
    - Remove the time limit on building charges for divine conduit. The attack already shares a CD with great-cleave, so it's not spamable, furthermore you can only have one charge. Let people charge up the attack faster so it can be used more often in battle. Charges can still decay, so you can't pre-stack them, but let them build up faster when they are needed (cleaving more foes should give you more stacks so you can use your powerful cleave faster or more often)
    - Add a bonus to crit range based on the number of religious lore feats. Warsoul/Warpriest already lacks the crit range bonus other tress have (only bonus to crit multipler) so it would be nice to have a crit range bonus on this special attack, and basing it on the number of religious lore feats would fit the flavour of the attack and give it more benefits to pure clerics/FvS or divine multiclassing.

    The first one is a simple fix that would make this T5 attack worth it (now its very much worthless as you can barely get to use it).
    The second change would make this attack more in line with similar T5 cleaves.

    Hope this gets some attention from devs...
    Last edited by lLobo; 06-02-2020 at 07:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    Divine Vessel (Warsoul and Warpriest T5 special attack) is drastically lacking.
    It sounds great, a 5W cleave attack that deals some extra light and fire dmg. Not as powerful as Eldritch tempest, but not bad.

    The issue is the way to build it up.
    You need to stack 25 charges of divine conduit by hitting mobs. But you can only gain one charge per second. Not only that, the charges decay after 5 seconds... So to build this up, you need to hit things for 25 seconds non-stop.
    On top of that it shares CD with Great Cleave...

    Compare that to attacks such as:
    - Avenging Cleave (KoTC T5), also shares CD with great cleave, causes vulnerability, but has no other CD or charges;
    - Holy retribution (KoTC T5), has its own CD, deals additional dmg and stat dmg, restores smites, vorpal to evil;
    - Eldritch Tempest (EK T5), also shares CD with great cleave, extra force dmg AoE, knockdown, +10 crit range +3 crit multi;
    Those are all better than Divine Vessel, easier to use and require the same amount of investment (T5).

    I'd like to propose a few things for Divine Vessel to make it more in line with other T5 cleave attacks:
    - Remove the time limit on building charges for divine conduit. The attack already shares a CD with great-cleave, so it's not spammable, furthermore you can only have one charge. Let people charge up the attack faster so it can be used more often in battle. Charges can still decay, so you can't pre-stack them, but let them build up faster when they are needed (cleaving more foes should give you more stacks so you can use your powerful cleave faster or more often)
    - Add a bonus to crit range based on the number of religious lore feats. Warsoul/Warpriest already lacks the crit range bonus other tress have (only bonus to crit multipler) so it would be nice to have a crit range bonus on this special attack, and basing it on the number of religious lore feats would fit the flavor of the attack and give it more benefits to pure clerics/FvS or divine multiclassing.

    The first one is a simple fix that would make this T5 attack worth it (now its very much worthless as you can barely get to use it).
    The second change would make this attack more in line with similar T5 cleaves.

    Hope this gets some attention from devs...
    Eldritch Tempest has a 25 second CD, not shared with Great Cleave. It's also not something to try to balance other stuff around, as it's literally the strongest active attack in DDO lol. Can argue that it shouldn't be in EK, or should be nerfed (ideally with CD reduced as well) etc etc, but that's like balancing a self-healing enhancement around PM capstone.

    Holy Retribution is one of the strongest parts of KotC, and isn't really set up like a Cleave (it's a Channel Divinity). You could easily have instead mentioned Avenging Cleave, which is also KotC T5 - but sharing a cooldown with GCleave makes it far more equivalent to Divine Vessel. It's a 5[W] Cleave that gives one stack of Vulnerability, so basically it just saves you a feat slot.

    You could even look at Nature's Warrior T5 active cleave, Alpha Strike; it doesn't share a CD with GCleave, but it has 12s CD so it's worse there. Does 5[W] and has a small debuff if you meet the niche conditions.

    IMO Warpriest/War Soul shouldn't be as good as the melee trees. If they are, why play a melee class vs Cleric/FvS which have spellcasting as well, and other cool perks (Domain, FvS HP, etc). So I'm totally down with removing the time limit on building charges (I'd be fine splitting the CD from GCleave as well) but adding a +20 crit range bonus seems far too strong.
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  3. #3
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    Yeah, it was clear from the start DV is just a flavor ability. It was even nerfed from the original rework. It's unfortunate that so much dev time is put into something destined to go unused. Why spend 20 seconds to charge a spell that does as much damage as spells you can freely cast anyway? Either they need to buff the damage of the melee cleave or the spell, or drastically reduce the CDs so it at least can be used as a replacement for Great Cleave.

    I would decouple the cleave from the charges. Make it work as a replacement for Great Cleave (5s CD), but only make it proc the meteor if you have the charges. Then increase the damage of the meteor (it's still on a 20s+ CD).
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 06-03-2020 at 10:38 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLobo View Post
    Divine Vessel (Warsoul and Warpriest T5 special attack) is drastically lacking.
    It sounds great, a 5W cleave attack that deals some extra light and fire dmg. Not as powerful as Eldritch tempest, but not bad.

    The issue is the way to build it up.
    You need to stack 25 charges of divine conduit by hitting mobs. But you can only gain one charge per second. Not only that, the charges decay after 5 seconds... So to build this up, you need to hit things for 25 seconds non-stop.
    On top of that it shares CD with Great Cleave...

    Compare that to attacks such as:
    - Avenging Cleave (KoTC T5), also shares CD with great cleave, causes vulnerability, but has no other CD or charges;
    - Holly retribution (KoTC T5), has its own CD, deals additional dmg and stat dmg, restores smites, vorpal to evil;
    - Eldritch Tempest (EK T5), also shares CD with great cleave, extra force dmg AoE, knocksdown, +10 crit range +3 crit multi;
    Those are all better than Divine Vessel, easier to use and require the same amount of investment (T5).

    I'd like to propose a few things for Divine Vessel to make it more in line with other T5 cleave attacks:
    - Remove the time limit on building charges for divine conduit. The attack already shares a CD with great-cleave, so it's not spamable, furthermore you can only have one charge. Let people charge up the attack faster so it can be used more often in battle. Charges can still decay, so you can't pre-stack them, but let them build up faster when they are needed (cleaving more foes should give you more stacks so you can use your powerful cleave faster or more often)
    - Add a bonus to crit range based on the number of religious lore feats. Warsoul/Warpriest already lacks the crit range bonus other tress have (only bonus to crit multipler) so it would be nice to have a crit range bonus on this special attack, and basing it on the number of religious lore feats would fit the flavour of the attack and give it more benefits to pure clerics/FvS or divine multiclassing.

    The first one is a simple fix that would make this T5 attack worth it (now its very much worthless as you can barely get to use it).
    The second change would make this attack more in line with similar T5 cleaves.

    Hope this gets some attention from devs...
    Yes, warpriest is easily one of the worst trees in the game and this is one of the weakest t5s in the game. The devs really need to relook at warpriest/soul.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Eldritch Tempest has a 25 second CD, not shared with Great Cleave. It's also not something to try to balance other stuff around, as it's literally the strongest active attack in DDO lol. Can argue that it shouldn't be in EK, or should be nerfed (ideally with CD reduced as well) etc etc, but that's like balancing a self-healing enhancement around PM capstone.
    Agree, Eldritch Tempest is great. I don't think Divine Vessel need to be as good. I just used tempest to show what other T5 cleaves are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Holy Retribution is one of the strongest parts of KotC, and isn't really set up like a Cleave (it's a Channel Divinity). You could easily have instead mentioned Avenging Cleave, which is also KotC T5 - but sharing a cooldown with GCleave makes it far more equivalent to Divine Vessel. It's a 5[W] Cleave that gives one stack of Vulnerability, so basically it just saves you a feat slot.
    I did mention Avenging Cleave, it is the most comparable and it is much better (in that it is much easier to use) than Divine Vessel.
    If they just removed the time limit to build charges (i.e. you could get more than one charge per second) it would be an average skill. It still feels like if there is going to be charges at all it should have something to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    You could even look at Nature's Warrior T5 active cleave, Alpha Strike; it doesn't share a CD with GCleave, but it has 12s CD so it's worse there. Does 5[W] and has a small debuff if you meet the niche conditions.
    Yes, there are a few other T5 cleave attacks like this one, or even the Enlighted Spirit one that uses the Warlock EB dmg and procs. But I'm not very familiar with them and not sure how they work. They do seem to be easier to use and have better effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    IMO Warpriest/War Soul shouldn't be as good as the melee trees. If they are, why play a melee class vs Cleric/FvS which have spellcasting as well, and other cool perks (Domain, FvS HP, etc). So I'm totally down with removing the time limit on building charges (I'd be fine splitting the CD from GCleave as well) but adding a +20 crit range bonus seems far too strong.
    The Warpriest/Warsoul are melee trees for Cleric/FvS, so they are intended to increase their melee potential. Melee classes have other perks and much better trees.
    The crit range bonus would make it a guarantee crit for one attack, no multipliers... Considering the tree has lower access to crit range increase, having one guarantee crit attack is not such a game-break thing.

    Other ideas it would be that each Divine Conduit charge gives a Positive/Light/Fire Spell Power (or Melee/Ranged Power) bonus, so you increase your SP while building charges and then use them to deliver the attack increasing the added dmg from the special.
    I think the charges are interesting, just the build up is too slow (and most fights end up not even able to use the attack) and the result is severely lackluster.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Yeah, it was clear from the start DV is just a flavor ability. It was even nerfed from the original rework. It's unfortunate that so much dev time is put into something destined to go unused. Why spend 20 seconds to charge a spell that does as much damage as spells you can freely cast anyway? Either they need to buff the damage of the melee cleave or the spell, or drastically reduce the CDs so it at least can be used as a replacement for Great Cleave.

    I would decouple the cleave from the charges. Make it work as a replacement for Great Cleave (5s CD), but only make it proc the meteor if you have the charges. Then increase the damage of the meteor (it's still on a 20s+ CD).
    If there was no time limit to build charges (i.e. you can build more charges per second, attacking faster or cleaving) it wouldn't be as bad.
    It would be interesting to have something more going with the charges... like each charge increases your spell power and/or melee/ranged power... So you build up power and release it in a big AoE...

    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Yes, warpriest is easily one of the worst trees in the game and this is one of the weakest t5s in the game. The devs really need to relook at warpriest/soul.
    Signed!

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