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  1. #1
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    Default TOEE Zuggtmoy bug?

    I know the heroic TOEE part 2 end fight against Zuggtmoy has received a lot of complaints about the difficulty. With HC Leauge, I've been finding no-death solutions to all the Heroic Elite difficult quests (excluding some raids). TOEE part 2 has had me baffled and feeling there are no winning solutions except a generous application of raising dead toons either with spirit cakes or using d-doors to get the healers out of the room after raising dead party members.

    I understand that this may be working as intended. Zuggtmoy is, after all, a powerful demon. Maybe TOEE part 2 was intended to be like The Shroud raid, where toon death is a certainty. What is more heroic than overcoming death? We know from The Shroud that what is fair game on regular servers doesn't work for HC League. Maybe TOEE part 2 is one such quest, and I am ok with that. However, there's no direct evidence supporting or disputing such a claim, so I wanted to find out if TOEE part 2 was possible to complete without a death with a level 11 build. For testing purposes, however, I have been using a level 12 build. I figured if a level 12 toon can't survive, then a level 11 toon can't either. The build is undead - designed to be immune to almost everything, high hitpoints, decent DPS, and has a proven high-survivability. That is, this build has successfully soloed, without dying, all the other quests that have proven difficult on HCL.

    So, why am I asking if there is a bug? I was careful in my approach to trying to solve TOEE part 2, adjusting each time a death occurred to avoid dying the next time. There seems to be no such solution to killing Zuggtmoy other than the documented stand near a Defensive Mushroom solution. However, these mushrooms do not always seem to be available when needed, or perhaps they are out of sight or too far away. In either case, the mushrooms were not an effective solution for HCL. So, I started reviewing the combat logs to see what exactly was killing the toon. This is a screen capture of the combat log pasted together showing what killed the toon.



    Here's where I finally saw a potential bug.
    1) Declares an Immunity to a specific damage type, caustic destruction.
    2) Shows damage from caustic destruction immediately following the immunity message.
    3) Begins the Death remove buffs sequence, meaning the next (not previous) damage or effect shown is what killed the toon.
    4) A second caustic destruction damage effect, which is what killed the toon.

    I cannot be certain what the bug is, nor can I be certain that the caustic destruction damage isn't WAI (i.e. no immunity allowed). What I am certain of is there is, at the very least, a bug in reporting immunity for something which the effected toon is clearly not immune to. In other words, there seems to be a bug, but exactly what that bug is, I cannot say. That said, to be sure there is a bug, I figured I'd post this to get feedback. Perhaps there is a history of such combat dialog bugs that are known but have an extremely low priority of ever getting fixed. There's a hint of a second problem in that Caustic Destruction seems to have forked (like a Lightning Bolt spell) and hit twice, with the second hit being significantly more than the first, which may just be a critical hit. The second Caustic Destruction hit doesn't generate a second immunity message, leading me to believe it is the same as the original Caustic Destruction. I was not aware of other spells doing that kind of forking, but this certainly could be the waves effect hitting multiple times.

    Some other notes:
    This post is not a complaint that TOEE 2 is too hard or can't be done on elite at base level + 4 without a high expectation of dying. I've seen no official word either way, so - no assumptions.
    I am not looking for solutions with this post. While help or links to potential solutions are welcome, rest assured that I have done some research with in-game practice and know a lot of the tricks, such as how to use the mushrooms and watching for the destruction waves.
    There are other bugs in TOEE part 2, such as not being able to get to the end fight because the Node you are supposed to enter is blocked or the Node Portal Gem can't be found, so it seems reasonable the end fight damage might also be bugged.

  2. #2
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    I've been farming EE ToEE for the past few weeks and have done about 25 runs part 2. I'm using a first life pally with Sharn gear, 7k sentient xp, 1 augment and no raid gear.

    To be blunt it sounds like you don't know how this fight works even if you say you do. My strat is below, read it, don't read it, others will and that's all that matters. After the initial learning period, my chance of dying is about 10-15%. If I was ranged, had movement speed, had the ton of extra hp all those past life guys have or had a competent caster buddy it would be 0-1%.


    There's ALWAYS sheltering mushrooms. I've seen more than 1 at the same time and I run for the first and closest one I see. They are only ever up when she casts the destruction spell. I'm never at the extremities of the room and can always make the distance if not CCed but sometimes just barely. The key is to immediately stop what you're doing and look, don't f*ck around trying to kill trash or whatever else. I play from Australia so lag isn't an issue there.

    As for the 'bug' you posted it sounds no different to being immune to secondary effects. Eg if you do neg levels and neg energy damage to a mob immune to neg levels but not neg energy, it will say immune. Afaik players can't be immune to damage types except negative energy? So what exactly is your uber character immune to?

    ----------

    How to beat boss in part 2 with no deaths:

    Firstly, the only way I die in this fight is an earthquake/destruction combo or an earthquake/trash combo. Once you know the basic mechanics, that will be the only way you die and your goal is to minimise the occurances of these events occurring together.


    Immediately look around when you get the destruction warning. If you delay more than 0.5 sec to kill a mob, do more dps, kill toxic mushroom - you're probably dead. 30% movement speed is enough but more is better for when you get caught early in an earthquake and recover after she winds up her casts. If it's hardcore then I'd probably adjust enhancements for speed if possible.


    Always keep moving. This is to reduce ranged attack damage and to lessen the likelihood of an earthquake hitting you. If you get hit by an earthquake while the second or third mob waves are up, you're probably dead or have a split second chance to survive. Also helps prevent cometfalls which are like earthquake-lite.

    Similarly, if you get caught in an earthquake and then she casts her big destruction attack, you're probably dead.

    You probably won't die at any other time while getting caught in an earthquake but it's the above risk that makes it so dangerous.

    If you get caught in an earthquake you need to leave the area immediately upon getting up, face the shortest direction out, preferably while spamming a movement ability or some kind of heal.

    Patience is key.

    Don't run into an earthquake to DPS her, just run around until it disappears even if it takes 30s and it feels like you're doing nothing.

    Don't transition the fight into another phase if you're not ready. You should ideally cleanse yourself prior if you have a lot of stacks, recast short buffs, etc. The second and third wave hits hard if left alone. Save your best cooldowns for the third wave to kill it as fast as possible since this is the hardest part of the fight. Once the third wave is killed, the rest of the fight is easy. Short cooldowns should be used for the second wave too so you have them again for the third. Cooldowns should not be used on the boss since when she's alone, that is the easiest part of the fight and only accelerates the coming of the harder part. For example if you have a big +5W cleave attack, using it on the boss to transition the fight will leave you without a big trash clear. I usually pop defensive CDs if I have them for trash so if I do get caught in an earthquake, it's not GG.

    Transitions seem to occur at around 90%, 50%, 25% hp remaining (rough eyeballing).

    You need to keep moving even while the trash is up. If you're melee, a circular kiting pattern slow enough that you can hit them every few steps. Why? Earthquakes. All those mobs will additionally obscure the ground effect.

    If you're solo and melee, don't stand so close to her so that earthquake prevents you from attacking her at all angles. 2HF can stand roughly on the edge of the circle and hit, if she earthquakes you can hit her on the other side. You may be able to hit her safely with 2 earthquakes up if you do it right.

    I always cleanse myself at around 7-10 stacks, self-healing through low stacks. The exact number will depend on your HP and prevention/healing potential. This is always less priority than getting to shelter. There's not always a cleansing mushroom up so don't leave it too late, but they do spawn frequently but can also despawn infront of you just before you use it.

    People have said spell absorb works but I don't bother with this. If you're hardcore, you might want to as a backup but her regular spells will eat charges so you'd have to swap in when casts.

    ---------------

    The above is written with a solo context. If you're in a party you need to communicate. Firstly, making sure everyone knows the fight. People's apprehension to run TOEE makes a lot of people unfamiliar with this encounter which doesn't help, since even if they read all of the above, they will probably die since it's the first time seeing the mechanics.

    You can't have 1 guy blasting boss, transitioning fight, if 4 others are 1/2 hp or are caught in earthquakes. Keep in mind, this isn't the only quest where transitioning a phase is harder. Everyone should be following the above guidelines such as saving CDs for trash. People need to keep an eye out for others getting earthquaked and toss heals on them if trash is piling on top of them. Everyone should resist the urge to run into an earthquake to dps the boss.

    You can't have people not cleansing themselves at appropriate stacks, a player that has too high stacks and never cleanses is a waste of healer SP/CDs and you're probably better off letting them die and cry in chat.

    Further, earthquakes are centered on players. If you stand close to someone else and they get earthquaked, you will get hit too, and vice versa. I wouldn't be surprised if 3+ melee is actually worse in this fight than 1-2 melee.

    If someone is earthquaked and destruction is coming Divine Intervention if you have it. The best cure is prevention if you didn't get that from all of the above.

    So, being in a party doesn't mean you can relax on the guidelines to stay alive and may in fact make it harder.

    Wiki says you can clear the earthquake with Gust of Wind but I don't run ToEE on a caster so can't say. Given that the earthquake/trash or earthquake/destruction combos are the ONLY ways I can lose that fight, if someone can cast that spell, the entire fight should be trivial, but only if you know the mechanics. Your screenshot also shows that Zug casts this spell so you could probably trick her into clearing her own earthquakes.

    ---------------

    TLDR: Priority order
    - Avoid earthquakes
    - Look for Sheltering Mushrooms immediately on boss destruction wind up - don't f*ck around
    - Get to Sheltering Mushroom
    - Cleansing at 7-10 or however much your HP/sustain can handle
    - Kill toxic mushroom
    - Transition phase when ready
    - Kill trash
    - Dps boss
    - Loot the shinies
    Last edited by zooble; 06-01-2020 at 09:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careall View Post
    I know the heroic TOEE part 2 end fight against Zuggtmoy has received a lot of complaints about the difficulty. With HC Leauge, I've been finding no-death solutions to all the Heroic Elite difficult quests (excluding some raids). TOEE part 2 has had me baffled and feeling there are no winning solutions except a generous application of raising dead toons either with spirit cakes or using d-doors to get the healers out of the room after raising dead party members.

    I understand that this may be working as intended. Zuggtmoy is, after all, a powerful demon. Maybe TOEE part 2 was intended to be like The Shroud raid, where toon death is a certainty. What is more heroic than overcoming death? We know from The Shroud that what is fair game on regular servers doesn't work for HC League. Maybe TOEE part 2 is one such quest, and I am ok with that. However, there's no direct evidence supporting or disputing such a claim, so I wanted to find out if TOEE part 2 was possible to complete without a death with a level 11 build. For testing purposes, however, I have been using a level 12 build. I figured if a level 12 toon can't survive, then a level 11 toon can't either. The build is undead - designed to be immune to almost everything, high hitpoints, decent DPS, and has a proven high-survivability. That is, this build has successfully soloed, without dying, all the other quests that have proven difficult on HCL.

    So, why am I asking if there is a bug? I was careful in my approach to trying to solve TOEE part 2, adjusting each time a death occurred to avoid dying the next time. There seems to be no such solution to killing Zuggtmoy other than the documented stand near a Defensive Mushroom solution. However, these mushrooms do not always seem to be available when needed, or perhaps they are out of sight or too far away. In either case, the mushrooms were not an effective solution for HCL. So, I started reviewing the combat logs to see what exactly was killing the toon. This is a screen capture of the combat log pasted together showing what killed the toon.



    Here's where I finally saw a potential bug.
    1) Declares an Immunity to a specific damage type, caustic destruction.
    2) Shows damage from caustic destruction immediately following the immunity message.
    3) Begins the Death remove buffs sequence, meaning the next (not previous) damage or effect shown is what killed the toon.
    4) A second caustic destruction damage effect, which is what killed the toon.

    I cannot be certain what the bug is, nor can I be certain that the caustic destruction damage isn't WAI (i.e. no immunity allowed). What I am certain of is there is, at the very least, a bug in reporting immunity for something which the effected toon is clearly not immune to. In other words, there seems to be a bug, but exactly what that bug is, I cannot say. That said, to be sure there is a bug, I figured I'd post this to get feedback. Perhaps there is a history of such combat dialog bugs that are known but have an extremely low priority of ever getting fixed. There's a hint of a second problem in that Caustic Destruction seems to have forked (like a Lightning Bolt spell) and hit twice, with the second hit being significantly more than the first, which may just be a critical hit. The second Caustic Destruction hit doesn't generate a second immunity message, leading me to believe it is the same as the original Caustic Destruction. I was not aware of other spells doing that kind of forking, but this certainly could be the waves effect hitting multiple times.

    Some other notes:
    This post is not a complaint that TOEE 2 is too hard or can't be done on elite at base level + 4 without a high expectation of dying. I've seen no official word either way, so - no assumptions.
    I am not looking for solutions with this post. While help or links to potential solutions are welcome, rest assured that I have done some research with in-game practice and know a lot of the tricks, such as how to use the mushrooms and watching for the destruction waves.
    There are other bugs in TOEE part 2, such as not being able to get to the end fight because the Node you are supposed to enter is blocked or the Node Portal Gem can't be found, so it seems reasonable the end fight damage might also be bugged.
    I ddoor out when she uses that attack. Spell absorption cancels the damage but not the stun so ddoor is the only true safe option.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zooble View Post
    As for the 'bug' you posted it sounds no different to being immune to secondary effects. Eg if you do neg levels and neg energy damage to a mob immune to neg levels but not neg energy, it will say immune. Afaik players can't be immune to damage types except negative energy? So what exactly is your uber character immune to?
    That was my thought as well. Immune to some status effect, but not the damage.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zooble View Post
    As for the 'bug' you posted it sounds no different to being immune to secondary effects. Eg if you do neg levels and neg energy damage to a mob immune to neg levels but not neg energy, it will say immune. Afaik players can't be immune to damage types except negative energy?
    The rest of your post is exactly what I was trying to avoid, so I'll /Ignore everything else. A PM in Lich form being immune to death effects is likely what that immunity effect is [Destruction: An enemy is Dead instantly, or is dealt 1d3+3 bane damage per caster level (no maximum) on a successful Fortitude save.]. That information answers the question about the immunity, but not the double hit from Destruction. Also, this doesn't appear to be the wave attack, but a Destruction spell.

    From Wiki:
    She has an AoE special attack, high damage and stun. There will be waves on the ground just before this attack. You can avoid the attack by getting behind the blue Sheltering Mushrooms. Spell Absorption items absorb the damage, but not the stun.
    Zuggtmoy's Earthquake spell can take you completely out of the equation. Bring high reflex save or knockdown immunity (e.g., from Unyielding Sentinel stance). Also note, arcane casters can dispel the effect by casting Gust of Wind onto the area.
    Destruction is another of her favorite and devastating attacks.
    To further clarify the distinction, I've been hit by that wave and stun attack, surviving quite easily. This Destruction effect seems to be something different. However, in the run that generated that Combat Log, I'm not 100% sure exactly what hit me since I wasn't facing her at that moment.

    Also, 367 points of damage from 1d3 + 3 per level means even if she rolled all threes on a Maximized crit, she'd have to be something like CR 35 on Heroic Elite, but the Wiki shows her at CR 15 on Heroic Elite. I'm not calling the amount of damage specifically a bug (though I am questioning it), but that was a second damage effect from what appears to be the same Destruction spell.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careall View Post

    Also, 367 points of damage from 1d3 + 3 per level means even if she rolled all threes on a Maximized crit, she'd have to be something like CR 35 on Heroic Elite, but the Wiki shows her at CR 15 on Heroic Elite. I'm not calling the amount of damage specifically a bug (though I am questioning it), but that was a second damage effect from what appears to be the same Destruction spell.
    When I first run the quest I had the impression that it has been downscaled from epic instead of the old school upscaling method. Could that cause the CR15 Boss doing a CR35 equivalent Damage?


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanordog View Post
    When I first run the quest I had the impression that it has been downscaled from epic instead of the old school upscaling method. Could that cause the CR15 Boss doing a CR35 equivalent Damage?
    This isn't the first time I've seen this theory.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careall View Post
    The rest of your post is exactly what I was trying to avoid, so I'll /Ignore everything else. A PM in Lich form being immune to death effects is likely what that immunity effect is [Destruction: An enemy is Dead instantly, or is dealt 1d3+3 bane damage per caster level (no maximum) on a successful Fortitude save.]. That information answers the question about the immunity, but not the double hit from Destruction. Also, this doesn't appear to be the wave attack, but a Destruction spell.

    From Wiki:


    To further clarify the distinction, I've been hit by that wave and stun attack, surviving quite easily. This Destruction effect seems to be something different. However, in the run that generated that Combat Log, I'm not 100% sure exactly what hit me since I wasn't facing her at that moment.

    Also, 367 points of damage from 1d3 + 3 per level means even if she rolled all threes on a Maximized crit, she'd have to be something like CR 35 on Heroic Elite, but the Wiki shows her at CR 15 on Heroic Elite. I'm not calling the amount of damage specifically a bug (though I am questioning it), but that was a second damage effect from what appears to be the same Destruction spell.
    1) Destruction does not deal acid damage, so whatever hit you wasn't really destruction. I am not certain, but I think the wave attack she uses is called Destruction.
    2) When calculating spell damage from enemies, you need to take into account their spell power which has nothing to do with CR. A simple Poison spell from a low level caster in high reapers may deal close to a hundred ability damage due to spell power.
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  9. #9

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    Zuggtmoy's big attack (which is channeled through an object named Destruction) deals 3 different damage effects, all three of which are named Causticity. (We can look into naming these a little more clearly).
    • The first one is Poison damage, and that's the one I think this player was immune to; I think because they were immune to Poison, not anything from the Sheltering Mushrooms (either because they were Undead, Warforged, or had some other channel of Poison immunity).
    • The second is Acid damage; this is listed in the combat log accurately.
    • The third is Bane/Untyped damage; this is the last line before "You were killed by Destruction".
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Zuggtmoy's big attack (which is channeled through an object named Destruction) deals 3 different damage effects, all three of which are named Causticity. (We can look into naming these a little more clearly).
    [Answered]

    Thank you, Steelstar, for the clarification. Combat Log reporting is where I would have put betting money when I started this post, which is why I posted here and not a bug report.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Zuggtmoy's big attack (which is channeled through an object named Destruction) deals 3 different damage effects, all three of which are named Causticity. (We can look into naming these a little more clearly).
    • The first one is Poison damage, and that's the one I think this player was immune to; I think because they were immune to Poison, not anything from the Sheltering Mushrooms (either because they were Undead, Warforged, or had some other channel of Poison immunity).
    • The second is Acid damage; this is listed in the combat log accurately.
    • The third is Bane/Untyped damage; this is the last line before "You were killed by Destruction".
    And its balanced and okay that a quest that is essentially level 9 on elite is doing ? x amount of poison damage + 200+ acid damage + 360+ untyped/bane damage on a single attack and its not even a raid just a quest? I knew that end fight was guano-loco in heroic. *smh* whatever... I run this for ingredients occasionally but I'm just going to keep ignoring Zuggy in heroics. She has nothing worth the effort of that absurdity in heroic. Not even for favor is that worth it.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    And its balanced and okay that a quest that is essentially level 9 on elite is doing ? x amount of poison damage + 200+ acid damage + 360+ untyped/bane damage on a single attack and its not even a raid just a quest? I knew that end fight was guano-loco in heroic. *smh* whatever... I run this for ingredients occasionally but I'm just going to keep ignoring Zuggy in heroics. She has nothing worth the effort of that absurdity in heroic. Not even for favor is that worth it.
    My opinion is, "No. It's not balanced well." And I have reasons for that opinion.
    • ToEE, both parts, is an extremely long non-raid quest, even when only running what's necessary and ignoring everything else.
    • You go through all that time and effort (loosely: "work") only to face near-certain death or at least 10%-15% certain death for experts.
    • The fight's solution seems to require not only learning how the fight works but also practicing the fight many times to be good at it enough to win regularly.


    All those many hours (days?) spent, spirit cakes, and repairing equipment is worth, what exactly?
    • XP that could have easily been gained faster-faster elsewhere, and
    • Potential for named items that can be obtained without defeating Zuggtmoy.
    • Bragging rights?


    That's not to say that I don't agree with the quest as-designed. As Reaper 10 is meant to be extremely difficult and takes a long time to ramp-up to and be able to successfully run, Zuggtmoy is one boss fight that is extremely tough for no other reason than to be extremely tough. That level of difficulty makes defeating Zugtmoy truly heroic. My hope is that SSG completely understands that few people will run that quest, and fewer still will bother with the end fight. If that is an acceptable consequence of the intent, then it's working as intended. However, I can't help but wonder what the intent actually is/was. After all, SSG just put in an elevator next to the ramp in the harbor. Other than taking it the first time to just do it once, I will likely never use that elevator as-intended again. What was the purpose? One can only guess.

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