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  1. #161
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Friday night update:

    Carceri Pact:
    Sleet Storm -> Creeping Cold

    Abyss Pact:
    Abyssal Shroud now grants +2 Cha, +10 Negative healing amplification, +10 Negative spell power
    Energy Drain -> Rend the Soul

    Absolute Zero and Ameliorate now have their own vfx

    Ameliorate's debuff now lasts 15 seconds

    Thanks for all of the feedback thus far! We're still able to change things around, so if you have any further thoughts please let me know.
    I like these changes, particularly rend the soul. The boss DPS boosts for Carceri and Abyss could be pretty attractive due to endgame warlocks really struggling with that. Are you set on the undead shroud "form" that won't play nice with ES celestial spirit? I think that's a real bummer, but I don't want to keep harping on it if it's a no-go for technical or other reasons.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  2. #162
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    I like these changes, particularly rend the soul. The boss DPS boosts for Carceri and Abyss could be pretty attractive due to endgame warlocks really struggling with that. Are you set on the undead shroud "form" that won't play nice with ES celestial spirit? I think that's a real bummer, but I don't want to keep harping on it if it's a no-go for technical or other reasons.
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  3. #163
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    Are the pact spells for Celestial set in stone? because most of them are lame. You don't choose a pact just on the spells alone but sheesh it weighs in. Also is there any chance for a different name on the cold pact? Its just my personal opinion but I really don't like the name. So far I'm liking the cold one best, just not its name.

    I keep thinking what would be really fun for me is if its possible to build a cold pact warlock/warchanter combo with all the frosty theme. But multiclassing casters is usually a no-go. But I know who'll be wearing the Robes of Winter Ice soon.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
    Aelonwy - Wydavir - Metaluscious - Aertimys - Aelyrra - Kaelaria - Lunaura - Aelurawynn - Saurscha - Crystalorn - Aurvaeyn - Vaelyns - Wyllowynd

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    Are you going to give any kind of in game warning that Abyssal Shroud not only locks out the level 18 core of Enlightened spirit, but almost every single benefit of the Enlightened Spirit capstone? The full breakdown of what you give up:

    3d6 Light Damage to your bursts/blasts/aura
    Knockdown immunity
    2 second aura ticks (50% increase in the application of temp hitpoints as well as aura damage)
    20% hitpoints
    Full BaB (which also increases PRR)
    10 ranged and melee power
    10 universal spell power
    20 light spell power (which powers both your added light damage and your core damage in Utterdark Blast)

    For an ES warlock, Abyssal Shroud is a giant newb trap. Would you at all consider decoupling the capstone buffs from having Celestial Spirit toggled on?

  5. #165
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    Can you please do one of the following?

    1-Grant full BAB while Embrace The Abyss is active and Ultimate Enlightenment from the Enlightened Spirit is trained, basically allow that Abyss toggle to serve as a dark equivalent to celestial spirit.

    2-Add full BAB to the Abyss toggle

    3-Grant a modified version of tenser's transformation that lasts at least 10 minutes.

    4-Allow divine crusader's full BAB to actually work for someone using the abyss pact (It currently does not work)

    __________________________________________________ ________________

    Reality: A lot of people using the Abyss pact are going to want to use it melee style, but all viability for this seems to be locked out aside for tenser's transformation in which let's admit is inadequate due to how short the duration is and due to the downside of it making spell cooldowns so much longer.......... would be much better to reduce the range of all spells to melee range, but nope........... I started out being super excited for this pact, but after running a quest with this pact on a melee build, turns out that the 20 BAB I was stuck with at level 30 repeatedly got me killed, it was not fun at all. If this pact isn't going to be fixed for that toggle to be melee friendly, I really wish you'd focus resources elsewhere and just scrap the abyss pact rather than letting it be a failure for melee enthusiasts right out of the box.
    Last edited by Lokeal_The_Flame; 05-23-2020 at 10:16 AM.

  6. #166
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    It would be extremely helpful if all of these mutually exclusive forms use the exact same language in their descriptions. Looking at how they're described:

    • Pale Master - Labeled as a Shroud Toggle, with no mention about only having one form.
    • Animal Elemental Shapes - Labeled as a Form, states that you can only be in one form.
    • Aasimar Ascendant Bond - Labeled as a Form Toggle, states that you can only have one "major form"
    • Shadowdancer Shadow Form - Labeled as a Major Form, states that you can only have one "major form"
    • Celestial Spirit - Labeled simply as "Toggle". No mention about what it can or cannot work with.
    • Channel the Abyss - Currently not labeled as anything.


    I would suggest labeling them all as Major Forms, with the line stating that "you can only be in one major form at a time".

    Also, as many other people here have pointed out, would it be possible to make the ES capstone to activate on Channel the Abyss as well as Celestial Spirit (or if not, make the capstone work without being in a form at all)?

  7. #167
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    It would be extremely helpful if all of these mutually exclusive forms use the exact same language in their descriptions. Looking at how they're described:

    • Pale Master - Labeled as a Shroud Toggle, with no mention about only having one form.
    • Animal Elemental Shapes - Labeled as a Form, states that you can only be in one form.
    • Aasimar Ascendant Bond - Labeled as a Form Toggle, states that you can only have one "major form"
    • Shadowdancer Shadow Form - Labeled as a Major Form, states that you can only have one "major form"
    • Celestial Spirit - Labeled simply as "Toggle". No mention about what it can or cannot work with.
    • Channel the Abyss - Currently not labeled as anything.


    I would suggest labeling them all as Major Forms, with the line stating that "you can only be in one major form at a time".
    That's a really good point. I can absolutely audit these tooltips to make the system clearer.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  8. #168
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    OK, thanks for the confirmation. I appreciate that kind of candid communication even when it's not what we want to hear.

    Edit: Could at least get some of the benefits of ES core 5&6 be changed to work in either celestial spirit form OR abyssal form?
    Last edited by SerPounce; 05-23-2020 at 02:47 PM.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  9. #169
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    So you're saying by intention/design, you are not supposed to play an Enlightened Spirit as an Abyss Warlock?

    If so, that's pretty disappointing. Is there any way you could find a small work around for at least the DPS portions of those final two cores to apply for Abyssal Warlocks? Losing the 3d6 light damage is pretty brutal, especially when fighting negative immune mobs such as undead or constructs.

    At this point, I'd also wonder if you're willing to make any adjustments to the warlock enhancements, or if this is update is going to strictly deal with the new pacts. If so, then Channel the Abyss needs a major overhaul as an 'alternate form' in comparison to what is essentially losing functionality of 1/3 of the warlock enhancement trees and only gaining a fraction of a Palemaster shroud bonus.

  10. #170
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    So you're saying by intention/design, you are not supposed to play an Enlightened Spirit as an Abyss Warlock?

    If so, that's pretty disappointing. Is there any way you could find a small work around for at least the DPS portions of those final two cores to apply for Abyssal Warlocks? Losing the 3d6 light damage is pretty brutal, especially when fighting negative immune mobs such as undead or constructs.

    At this point, I'd also wonder if you're willing to make any adjustments to the warlock enhancements, or if this is update is going to strictly deal with the new pacts. If so, then Channel the Abyss needs a major overhaul as an 'alternate form' in comparison to what is essentially losing functionality of 1/3 of the warlock enhancement trees and only gaining a fraction of a Palemaster shroud bonus.
    It is important to notice that the programming is so unpolished with this that you can't even gain full BAB from divine crusader while channel the abyss is active, the only way to get full BAB while playing as an abyss pact warlock healing through negative energy is to use Tenser's Transformation!

    I call for an overhaul to the Tenser's Transformation Spell!

    Change the spell cooldown penalty to a melee range only penalty for spells, increase the max number of minutes it can be active to at least 10 minutes at a time when extend spell metamagic is used, make the maximum number of minutes it can be active 30 minutes, and allow players a way to dispel that effect from themselves by untoggling the extend metamagic feat.

  11. #171
    Community Member Zeklijan's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the clarifications Lynn!

  12. #172
    Systems Designer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokeal_The_Flame View Post
    It is important to notice that the programming is so unpolished with this that you can't even gain full BAB from divine crusader while channel the abyss is active,
    Oh, looks like I accidentally broke that for all characters one update ago while doing some unrelated performance changes to the same enhancement. This has been fixed internally.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post

    Edit: Could at least some of the benefits of ES core 5&6 be changed to work in either celestial spirit form OR abyssal form?
    This is a very good idea. I think it’s a HUGE oversight and even bigger mistake that they be exclusive...it just makes no sense to have a pact that is exclusive with an enhancement tree, as someone used the example of cleric domains and you can use any tree with any domain you’d like, the same should apply here. This suggestion mitigates the issue somewhat tho I still think it’s silly; it would be like stabbing yourself just so you can stitch yourself up...why we are at that point?

  14. #174
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Bonus Spells
    • 1st Level Spell Merfolk's Blessing
    • 2nd Level Spell Gust of Wind
    • 3rd Level Spell Creeping Cold
    • 4th Level Spell Ice Storm
    • 5th Level Spell Niac's Biting Cold
    • 6th Level Spell Greater Creeping Cold

    Special Abilities
    • Warlock Level 6 Special Ability Frozen Footsteps: +10% Cold Absorption
    • Warlock Level 15 Special Ability Absolute Zero: Attempt to lock a single enemy in ice permanently. Enemies must succeed on a Will save vs DC (15 + Warlock level + Charisma Mod) or be forever trapped in solid ice. Enemies made of fire will instead be destroyed with no save. Does not affect bosses.
    [/LIST]
    This looks promising, though I'm not sure the level 15 ability diverges enough away from hurl. It seems at this rate, that picking between the two is mostly flavor. Also it suffers from the outdated / unscaling DC formula as well. If warlocks are getting some love, can we shift these to 10 + 9 (spell level) + cha mod + spell school mod please? At this rate, you are only creating further work or making these immediately useless abilities at endgame when we inevitably get more stat inflation from feywild expansion and on.

    The damage spells make very little sense, as warlock has next to zero boss dps anyways, so the dots aren't really going to elevate them where they need to be. All the damage spells definitely help with leveling though.

    I don't really see any of these spells at end game being important at all?

    • 1st Level Spell Merfolk's Blessing
    • 2nd Level Spell Creeping Cold (creeping cold is level 2, giving it as level 3 slot seems harsh)
    • 3rd Level Spell Ice Storm (level 4 spells like pk have been given in this slot)
    • 4th Level Spell Niac's Biting Cold (fey gives a level 6 here, goo gives a level 5)
    • 5th Level Spell Greater Creeping Cold (level 6 spell, the 5th slot historically always is level 6 or 7 spell not a level 5)
    • 6th Level Spell Mantle of the Icy Soul (level 9 spell, the 6th slot historically always is level 8 or 9 spells - indeed every 6th level warlock spell corresponds to a level 8 or 9)


    Mantle of the Icy Soul keeps this warlock's cold spells relevant on all flavors of warlock. And there's a precedent in howl of terror to give warlocks a spell on a pact list that requires a druid form usually.

    I think you should revisit how warlock spells are assigned spell levels. 6th level warlock spells are historically equivalent to 8-9th level, 5th levels are historically 6-7th level, and so on. These pacts (not just this one) have a lot of unbalanced spell lists where you guys sorta just went warlock level = sorc/wiz level, which isn't true for warlock or bard (both casters who only get up to 6th level spells). This precedent extends to bard spells too not just warlock.

    Warlock has always obeyed a very strict schema regarding spell level translations from the full spellcasting classes (druid, cleric, fvs, sorc, wiz).

    Every level 6 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 8-9th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 5 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 6-7th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of summon monster which is an 8th level spell (that is incredibly niche).
    Every level 4 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 4-6th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 3 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 3-4th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of banishment which is a 7th level spell (that is incredibly niche)
    Every level 2 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 2-3rd level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 1 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 1-2nd level spell in full casting classes (all pact ones are level 1).
    Last edited by Morroiel; 05-23-2020 at 05:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  15. #175
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Finally.



    So when can we have a sound lock?

  16. #176
    Nerino & Daniele's Souls Malex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malex View Post
    I generally really like this.
    1 thing about the level15 ability of celestial one: that is just a worse hurl through h*ll which only works on undead (hurl works on everything, ALSO make them helpless if they do make the save).
    Having an ability that only works on undead and does a minor debuff on others doesnt seem right..

    May I suggest, at the very least, making it usable on evil outsiders, if nothing else?

    Additionally: holy aura is currently bugged (the buff part is affected by spell resistance, and it seems to not count spell penetration). Are you planning to fix it? I'd like to have it, IF working correctly
    I will reiterate this.
    If the debuff is pretty lackluster, adding duration won't change it. People will just play fire over it, it has better spells as well.
    We need it to stun, or to kill more stuff, or both. Or, if we want to provide different scenarios: keep the target, DC and debuff like it is but make it mass thing on undead and debuff on others (like a EIN/turn undead)
    Right now, despite the good damage type, celestial is the worse one (even compared to abyss, now that they have rend the soul)
    Last edited by Malex; 05-23-2020 at 04:45 PM.

  17. #177
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malex View Post
    I will reiterate this.
    If the debuff is pretty lackluster, adding duration won't change it. People will just play fire over it, it has better spells as well.
    We need it to stun, or to kill more stuff, or both.
    Right now, despite the good damage type, celestial is the worse one (even compared to abyss, now that they have rend the soul)
    Agreed on top of extremely lackluster spell list.

    Maybe make it an aoe effect centered on the target, with old no limit wail style instakilling? Or increase the debuff to something meaningful?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  18. #178
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    Bonus Spells
    • 1st Level Spell Bless
    • 2nd Level Spell Soundburst
    • 3rd Level Spell Magic Circle Against Evil
    • 4th Level Spell Prayer
    • 5th Level Spell Holy Aura
    • 6th Level Spell Freedom of Movement
    Soundburst is a nice add for heroic trs otherwise this pact will see zero play outside of flavor in endgame. It has both a lackluster level 15 ability and a lackluster spell list that completely ignores precedent regarding bard/warlock.

    Warlock has always obeyed a very strict schema regarding spell level translations from the full spellcasting classes (druid, cleric, fvs, sorc, wiz).

    Every level 6 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 8-9th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 5 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 6-7th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of summon monster which is an 8th level spell (that is incredibly niche).
    Every level 4 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 4-6th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 3 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 3-4th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of banishment which is a 7th level spell (that is incredibly niche)
    Every level 2 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 2-3rd level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 1 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 1-2nd level spell in full casting classes (all pact ones are level 1).

    Bless - meets previous rule for translating full casting spell to warlock spell
    Soundburst - meets previous rule for translating full casting spell to warlock spell
    Magic Circle Against Evil - meets previous rule for translating full casting spell to warlock spell
    Prayer - 3rd level spell against a 4-6th level spell requirement
    Holy Aura - bugged but a 8th level spell against a 6-7th level spell requirement.
    Freedom of movement - a 4th level spell against a 8th-9th level spell requirement.

    At the very least move holy aura and freedom of movement around please. But this would be a much improved spell list that actually stuck with the rules precedent you set in place before:

    Bonus Spells
    • 1st Level Spell Bless
    • 2nd Level Spell Soundburst
    • 3rd Level Spell Magic Circle Against Evil
    • 4th Level Spell Freedom of Movement
    • 5th Level Spell Heal / Regenerate (or if you are really worried about them having a heal spell - you shouldn't be - then greater restoration, cometfall, or resurrection would all be good choices)
    • 6th Level Spell Holy Aura

    [/QUOTE]

    Also I suggest either significantly increasing the debuff or making the level 15 ability an aoe, so to distinguish it from hurl. But at the bar minimum please fix the spell list to be consistent with the previous rules - even if you make no other changes, please swap freedom of movement and holy aura.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  19. #179
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Bonus Spells
    • 1st Level Spell Mage Armor
    • 2nd Level Spell Spawn Screen
    • 3rd Level Spell Halt Undead
    • 4th Level Spell Death Aura
    • 5th Level Spell Symbol of Pain
    • 6th Level Spell Energy Drain -> changed to Rend the Soul
    This again has spell list consistency problems. Fullcasting spell levels dont translate 1-1 with the warlock spell levels.

    Every level 6 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 8-9th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 5 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 6-7th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of summon monster which is an 8th level spell (that is incredibly niche).
    Every level 4 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 4-6th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 3 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to an 3-4th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of banishment which is a 7th level spell (that is incredibly niche)
    Every level 2 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 2-3rd level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 1 warlock spell (whether pact or base class choice) corresponds to a 1-2nd level spell in full casting classes (all pact ones are level 1).

    Mage Armor - consistent
    Spawn Screen - consistent
    Halt Undead - consistent
    Death Aura - consistent
    Symbol of Pain - 5th level spell going against a 6-7th level spell requirement
    Energy Drain / Rend the Soul - consistent

    Possible list Suggestions Instead (that satisfy all the requirements from precedent):

    • 1st Level Spell Mage Armor
    • 2nd Level Spell Halt Undead
    • 3rd Level Spell Death Aura
    • 4th Level Spell Symbol of Pain
    • 5th Level Spell Greater Death Aura or Harm or Inflict Serious Wounds
    • 6th Level Spell Rend the Soul or Greater Death Aura or Inflict Critical Wounds


    I'm preferential to Harm at 5th and inflict critical wounds at 6th - this would still leave palemasters with a significantly better shroud and passive healing, but at least give this pact a fighting chance to keep themselves alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  20. #180
    2016, 2018 Player Council Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niknight View Post
    Might I suggest exchanging Holy Aura from the Celestial Pact with Holy Sword? It would open up the possibility for some melee Celestial/Enlightened Spirit action.
    I second this!

    More offensive options would be great to have!
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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