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  1. #341
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lain5246 View Post
    celestial pact is something i could care less about
    Can we also add to special ability level 15 celestial warlock that it gives +50 temporary HP every time it is used? or that it just permanently also increase 50 max HP as a side bonus.

  2. #342
    Community Member irnimnode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Overview
    Update 46 Patch 2 is expected to include three new Warlock Pact options. These options will be in addition to the pacts that are currently available (Fiend, Great Old One, and Fey) and follow all of the same structures as the other pacts. These new options are:

    • Celestial
    • The Abyss
    • Carceri Storm


    How to Access
    Simply create a level 1 Warlock and select one of the new pact feat options.
    So when will the next Preview to patch 2 and the warlock pact feat options be?

  3. #343
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    This kind of oscillation is common when more than one designer works together on a particular feature, and I think part of this feeling stems from how it's rare for players to see this kind of rapid iteration. My goal is to get a balanced game that provides the most fun to as many people as possible, and sometimes that means we change our minds and then change our minds again. I think listening to player feedback is very important, and if as a result the lamannia threads get a little cluttered, to me that's a small price to pay for a genuinely better game.
    Thank you for the rapid transparent iterations. This one looks good. Any chance you could get Coco to update the starting posts to reflect where things are leaning currently? That way there is an easy way to see and discuss the most recent iteration without having to dig through every comment.

  4. #344
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    It's not that Abyssal is necessarily weak, I'll reserve judgement till I play it, or that ES is weak (though it's not meta), but if this goes live as is there will be no reason to do Abyssal + ES. If you do ES you'll do an different pact, because why lose 20% of your neg immune DPS? And if you do abyssal you'll use a different tree (probably soul eater), because why use a tree that nerfed for your pact when the other two aren't (and probably stronger anyway). They're preemptively nerfing a pact+tree combo that doesn't have any particular synergy to start with.

    It's like nerfing dwarf rogues, sure dwarf would still be fine and rogue would still be fine, but why are we trying to cut down the mighty dwarf-rogue combo?

    I really don't care that much about abyssal enlightened spirits. It's the lack of any coherent design reasoning that makes me want to pull my hair out. This reminds me of the last update where stalwart pact was given +1 melee power /CL. Then it was taken away because they didn't like the flavor of melee power will a spell called "stalwart pact". Then when people responded "uh, what about the 25 melee power?" and the response was basically "oh, you guys care about 25 stacking melee power? I guess we'll add 15 back in with a different spell." None of it makes any sense, it's like they're pulling numbers out of a hat. I just want some *reason* why you'd take away 20% of the reliable DPS from a build other than "well, it's a major form" which doesn't make sense. If there was some reason why Abyss + ES was a game breaker then sure, I'm not seeing that, it's all so arbitrary.
    let me try to make it simple for you, i am ok with the loss of 3d6 light dmg as i gain all but knockdown immunity, feather fall, and 3d6 light dmg. as a melee tree that is not much loss, also give a good reason to use other pacts. To be fair using you argument you should be using you pitchfork and torch to champion the Aasimar toggle restriction. Ascendant Bond: Toggle: toggles off on rest. Must have your Bond Feat active to use. Mutually exclusive with Form feats (PM, Druid, etc). also should be crusading for pacts to work for the Bond Feats. Bond Feat. These are toggled on to get their bonuses, have visual effects, are mutually exclusive with Warlock Pacts and the Half-Elf Dilettante: Warlock feat. (Bear in mind that these ability scores don't apply to Feat Prereqs or anything.)
    with you argument debunked lets look at holy aura and give reasonable feedback on it.

  5. #345
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    Can we also add to special ability level 15 celestial warlock that it gives +50 temporary HP every time it is used? or that it just permanently also increase 50 max HP as a side bonus.
    har har har.

  6. #346
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lain5246 View Post
    har har har.
    Just curious why you do not care about celestial warlock, is it the playstyle or do you think it is too weak?

  7. #347
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    Just curious why you do not care about celestial warlock, is it the playstyle or do you think it is too weak?
    nope, to be honest would not even run warlock if not for undead form. to much sacrifice to gain perma immunities. also hard to get prr to match my wizard on live. and finally abyss makes it so i can run my gear from my wizard on the warlock which makes for better comparison.

  8. #348
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Yikes.


    Honestly, if you don't know how any of this works, why chime in with the hot takes?
    i do understand, but in the scheme of things i don't see it as important.

  9. #349
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Sorry to bring the conversation all the way back around but Holy Aura now uses the Sacred channel for its buff and lasts 1 min/caster level :P

    (I know that the sacred channel for saves conflicts with Paladin's Sacred Defense, but I don't think any other channel really fits here and if the spell goes from 99% useless to 2% useless that's still a win. I can keep adjusting upwards but for this patch it'll likely stay as Sacred.)
    seems ok for now. i honestly don't know how to make it better.

  10. #350
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That wasn't the latest version, here's the actual current plan
    I have to agree with SerPounce's posts about the 3d6 light damage, it'd be a substantial DPS loss for Abyss warlocks.

    Currently at endgame, about 1/3 to 1/2 of the mobs are going to be immune to the pact damage die as well as the additional damage sources from the Abyss spell list. Losing that additional 3d6 light damage (which is almost universally going to damage mobs that are immune to negative) is going to severely hamper the playability of Abyss warlocks, particularly in epics.

    Is there any way that you could make the 3d6 light damage purely passive, and instead give the +10 universal and +20 light spellpower to Celestial Spirit if we can't just go ahead and drop the Celestial Spirit major form requirement?

    Actually, come to think of it in regards to that, mechanically, what makes Celestial Spirit different than monk's slowfall? Is there a way to make it a slowfall-style toggle with the feather fall and knockdown immunity and remove the major form issue?

  11. #351
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    I have to agree with SerPounce's posts about the 3d6 light damage, it'd be a substantial DPS loss for Abyss warlocks.

    Currently at endgame, about 1/3 to 1/2 of the mobs are going to be immune to the pact damage die as well as the additional damage sources from the Abyss spell list. Losing that additional 3d6 light damage (which is almost universally going to damage mobs that are immune to negative) is going to severely hamper the playability of Abyss warlocks, particularly in epics.

    Is there any way that you could make the 3d6 light damage purely passive, and instead give the +10 universal and +20 light spellpower to Celestial Spirit if we can't just go ahead and drop the Celestial Spirit major form requirement?

    Actually, come to think of it in regards to that, mechanically, what makes Celestial Spirit different than monk's slowfall? Is there a way to make it a slowfall-style toggle with the feather fall and knockdown immunity and remove the major form issue?
    this is becoming tedious, if so much of the dmg comes from this ability lets remove it on the basis of it being poorly designed. as for the celestial spirit toggle i think it was made to combat future possibilities like aasimar.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seljuck View Post
    Eldritch aura is weak and is used only in sporadic situations.. like in king forest portal slayer. Any oriented player who wants to keep the largest possible dps uses Eldritch Cone and Burst/Blast if needed.

    With proposed change, every warlock in game who is focused on running content on higher difficulty then normal or hard will need to chose..
    I agree with you that there should be no changes that nerf how existing pact warlocks function, just because more pacts are being added.

    However, I disagree with your line of argument, as quoted above. I play several warlocks, and drop cone use once I enter epics (actually towards the end of heroics), because it has poor damage compared to aura. I don't have ES capstone HPs any more, I adjusted away from that for more dps, since I didn't need the hps. Running at cap (30), I solely run R2 and R3, soloing (but with group scaling for my box accounts in group) all quest content on R2/3, using tentacles+aura. I duo with no healing from partner, r3/4 (and sometimes r5 for the easier scaled quests). I group, r5/6, with no or only minimal healing (not dedicated healer), and tank for those groups using aura, including the latest content which has quite bumped up damage from bosses. Past r5/6, I group thru r10 using instakills and CC tentacles, no-one wants to get hit at that R-level. Again, I am not hp spec'd, and I'm running in EA. None of my warlocks have reaper wings, or even one full reaper tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seljuck View Post
    Eldritch Aura is mostly targeted for people who want to play mele/tank with warlock class splashed.. but again.. warlock don't have anything exciting to consider it for mele/ranged splash. Your proposition don't change it, if we need to take 20 lv of warlock to use it on splash.. ?

    I have specifically logged into the game to see how many potential warlock mele splashes we have on cannith at the moment of posting this post.. and it looks like this:
    No splash for me, pure warlock, and I don't see people doing what you're describing. So for me, your image is a waste of time, your argument sets up a straw man and is based on an incorrect premise.

    But, once again, I think that as you are trying to argue for, there should be no nerf to existing warlocks because some new pacts are added.

    Also, using colors doesn't help, there are other themes supported on this forum, and reading red text on those themes is difficult. Bold, underline and italics work fine everywhere.
    Last edited by Tist; 05-28-2020 at 01:35 PM.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Sorry to bring the conversation all the way back around but Holy Aura now uses the Sacred channel for its buff and lasts 1 min/caster level
    This is much better, thank you. As the highest-level divine buff in the game, the only other suggestion I would have is to make it a bit more defensive than just +4 AC. A little PRR/MRR would be welcome, and would mean that the spell would go to 100% useful for everyone - even if the bonus is small.

    Also, Angelskin uses the racial channel and Righteous Command uses the morale channel, in case either of those are options for stacking purposes.

  14. #354
    Community Member Seljuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tist View Post
    I agree with you that there should be no changes that nerf how existing pact warlocks function, just because more pacts are being added.

    However, I disagree with your line of argument, as quoted above. I play several warlocks, and drop cone use once I enter epics (actually towards the end of heroics), because it has poor damage compared to aura. I don't have ES capstone HPs any more, I adjusted away from that for more dps, since I didn't need the hps. Running at cap (30), I solely run R2 and R3, soloing (but with group scaling for my box accounts in group) all quest content on R2/3, using tentacles+aura. I duo with no healing from partner, r3/4 (and sometimes r5 for the easier scaled quests). I group, r5/6, with no or only minimal healing (not dedicated healer), and tank for those groups using aura, including the latest content which has quite bumped up damage from bosses. Past r5/6, I group thru r10 using instakills and CC tentacles, no-one wants to get hit at that R-level. Again, I am not hp spec'd, and I'm running in EA. None of my warlocks have reaper wings, or even one full reaper tree.



    No splash for me, pure warlock, and I don't see people doing what you're describing. So for me, your image is a waste of time, your argument sets up a straw man and is based on an incorrect premise.

    But, once again, I think that as you are trying to argue for, there should be no nerf to existing warlocks because some new pacts are added.

    Also, using colors doesn't help, there are other themes supported on this forum, and reading red text on those themes is difficult. Bold, underline and italics work fine everywhere.

    What I was talking, was r8-10. On that difficulty level you need all possible survivability you can get if you want be useful.

    If you drop cone for aura, how you want not to be hit by mobs if you need come closer to them to actually do any dmg??

    Tentacles are great but they dont last that long on r8+, and they have cooldown aswell, which means you become vulnerable at that time.

    Unfortunately, it all depends on the perspective, and the vast majority of players recognize heroic and r1 epic / legendary levels as determining the level of usability.
    And the truth is that if you go to r8-10 you will face a completely different reality, where most of the choices based on usability at lower levels are not reflected in the high reaper.

    For me personally 2s aura is to slow, got to small range and exposes me to attacks which I don't want to on R8+. Even with warlock great survivability, that kind of playstyle is completely missed... but again.. all depends on perspective.. and people who build characters around highest possible difficulty are sadly in minority.
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  15. #355
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    Just the number of responses shows how much people are engaged with this idea. Personally, In the abstract, I love the idea of more pacts.

    Everything else has been so chewed over, so I'm going to focus on just one piece (apologies if someone already mentioned this -- too many posts to read them all).

    The Celesital pact lightning/will save makes perfect sense to me if you consider the mythology of storm gods whose favorite weapon is the lightning bolt. The most famous is Zeus, of course, but ancient heads of pantheons in the Levant (from the Middle East to Persia) were often storm gods. They were associated with light, mountains, rain that bring crops, establishing order against chaos, and warfare where they used lightning and wind. A divine attack smiting the wicked and unbelievers would very much be a question of moral purity and devotion. Sounds like will to me. So from a conceptual, if non-game frame, I like it.

    It actually reminds me a bit of an old, I think it was Neverwinter Nights, enhancement line for clerics called a Storm Lord. The concept was similar: electric, and light/holy damage, except that their favored weapon was spear. (Why can't we have spears?) Besides, green steel Lightning weapons already combine light and electric damage.

    Given all that, I would love to get rid of Ameliorate and replace it with an attack like Storm of Vengeance or an improved Call Lightning Storm with CC benefits. Some ideas for ways to improve the latter include


    • larger area of effect
    • add an Obscuring Mist like effect due to intense rain
    • add Slow from winds
    • add blindness effects
    • add daze or stunning effects (because, after all, it is celestial judgment at work)
    • and/or electric/light vulnerability


    Any of these strike me (pun intended) as more in keeping with a Celestial/sky theme than an undead attack.
    "I didn't change my mind, It changed all by itself" – Luna

  16. #356
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seljuck View Post
    For me personally 2s aura is to slow, got to small range and exposes me to attacks which I don't want to on R8+. Even with warlock great survivability, that kind of playstyle is completely missed... but again.. all depends on perspective.. and people who build characters around highest possible difficulty are sadly in minority.
    The game should not be balanced based on high reaper, so long as every pure class has a viable build. At the moment, pure warlocks do in high reaper - dc caster. Do warlocks need some adjustments for reasons elsewhere (like divergent dc formulas, etc.)? Absolutely. But dps locks are pretty good in heroics and all the way up to r4-r5 at the moment - though SE/TS is far superior dps wise than SE/ES is, especially in heroics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Sorry to bring the conversation all the way back around but Holy Aura now uses the Sacred channel for its buff and lasts 1 min/caster level :P

    (I know that the sacred channel for saves conflicts with Paladin's Sacred Defense, but I don't think any other channel really fits here and if the spell goes from 99% useless to 2% useless that's still a win. I can keep adjusting upwards but for this patch it'll likely stay as Sacred.)
    It's... better.
    Nothing spectacular, and probably not worth the 8th level spell slot it would usually cost yet, but definitely a step in the right direction.

    If the other half of the spell stays as it is, can you at least make sure the blind effect targets a save lower than currently-sky-high Fort ones?

    Additionally, I'd like it if that half of the spell worked on undead. Undead are immune to blindness, but this could be an exception. Alternatively, make it do something else to the undead plague.
    Enthusiasm enthusiast enthusiast.

  18. #358
    Community Member mr420247's Avatar
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    The problem is on heroics anything works almost maybe not clerics and garbage war priest but ok

    Epics high skulls locks have completely lost there niche for those that do care

    Better tanks pallys for shure, better dps pallys, sorcs, alchs, for shure, dcs pm wizies 15-20 lol

    And better spell selection feats why bother epic feats are kind of a joke for casters right now

    When legendary lvl 40 trs hits n bars get raised to sorc-pm levels u think locks will still have a chance at all

    R5 at cap is a joke right not r10 useless see the point yet

    Even on a fully maxed out pm constructs are a fn pain in the A y there 1 and only stipper don't work and u basically pike

    of course they could fix spell pen on frog sure and **** ball and ok maybe they'd still suck compared to pallys but ok
    Last edited by mr420247; 05-28-2020 at 09:19 PM.
    Damonz Cannith

  19. #359
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Just a question in terms of monster immunities, which pact damage do you think is the most effective? (If we consider all the quests)

    Edit: Mostly trying to compare acid and electricity pact damages
    Last edited by Alttab; 05-28-2020 at 10:46 PM.

  20. #360
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    Just a question in terms of monster immunities, which pact damage do you think is the most effective? (If we consider all the quests)

    Edit: Mostly trying to compare acid and electricity pact damages
    Fiend is the most effective by virtue of spending 16AP in Tiefling and stripping fire immunity/making mobs take 5% extra damage from fire.

    This would be followed by Great Old One. After that, technically Celestial should come up in third by merit of how many mobs have electric resist compared to the will save.

    After that, it'd be Fey as a reflex save, followed by Carceri due to the combo of Reflex save and Cold being the most commonly resisted elemental damage type, and finally Abyss at the bottom of the pack.

    Because having 1/3 to 1/2 of the mobs in the game outright being immune, or being healed (though this part seems to have been changed for the moment), by your pact die is not exactly ideal, and even then, with it being a fort save, chances are the damage will be halved most of the time.

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