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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    I mean, if that does happen, what will they get in return?
    They'll get a more authentic Warlock roleplay experience! :D
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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    Honestly, the more I look at it, the more right you become. Even weapon specific class trees like thief acrobat do not have their capstone tied to that weapon. Heck, even the universal trees do not require the associated weapon (VKF or INQ) to gain most of the benefit of their capstones. Even comparing it to other class trees which grant tree defining toggles(SaD and StD) those capstone have a very small portion dedicated to those toggles. Heck not even EK's capstone is that tied to the class toggle.
    kinda surprising isnt it? I actually went and looked at the bear and wolf trees expecting them to be more restrictive but they barely even care if you are wolf or bear. I didn't look at all the trees, but vanguard was the most restrictive I could find and it only requires a shield, which doesnt feel too bad for me. I wouldnt mind seeing that tree open up for non shield users a bit though.
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  3. #243
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Warlock has always obeyed a very strict schema regarding spell level translations from the full spellcasting classes (druid, cleric, fvs, sorc, wiz).

    Every level 6 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to an 8-9th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 5 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to an 6-7th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of summon monster which is an 8th level spell (that is incredibly niche).
    Every level 4 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to an 4-6th level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 3 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to an 3-4th level spell in full casting classes with the exception of banishment which is a 7th level spell (that is incredibly niche)
    Every level 2 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to a 2-3rd level spell in full casting classes.
    Every level 1 warlock spell (whether pact, tainted scholar, or base class choice) corresponds to a 1-2nd level spell in full casting classes (all pact ones are level 1).

    Every pact's spell choices at the moment goes well beyond throwing this out. It seems a little wonky logic wise to cling to tradition with regard to major form stances and then to throw away tradition with the spell lists for the pacts.

    I don't even really care about the power level, I'd rather have a weak spell list that is consistent with the design philosophy of the warlock class than a "strong" spell list that is completely inconsistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  4. #244
    Community Member M.ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The reason I don't want to do that is twofold:

    ...I am actually more okay with just putting most of the bonuses as always-on in the capstone, and leaving one or two things tied to the Aura. Say, the BaB (because you can't actually use your attack bonus in other stances anyway, so no problems here) and the melee/ranged power (also can't be used in other stances so again no problems)? That way the capstone still upgrades the Aura a bit, most everyone else gets what they want otherwise, and there's still a choice of Abyssal or Celestial without needing to name the Abyssal Pact in any of the tree.
    I think that is a sound compromise. The 5th Core still locks out Major Forms and the "up-close and personal" parts of the Capstone are tied to the Aura.

    Can you also change the Abyssal Stance to add: "When enabled, your Eldritch Aura Stance gains 3d6 Negative damage." This would make up the loss of the 3d6 Light damage from the Celestial toggle. Tie it to the Aura stance so that it is not OP when running in the other trees. Or just remove the 3d6 light damage from requiring the Celestial stance to be active (I prefer the first option).

    Cheers,
    M.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    cling to tradition with regard to major form stances
    Tradition shcmadition, we literally can't break the action system by allowing for more than one active toggle within the same action group. To make matters worse, DDO does not handle simultaneous genus overrides and allowing someone to be both an Undead and in Wild Shape or - even worse - another Shroud would seriously donk up their character.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  6. #246
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    It's great to see that feedback is still being considered. I'm not sure if you saw my earlier comment and I don't want to interrupt the enhancement conversation, but it would be helpful to understand if any itemization changes will be coming as part of this.

    Specifically, the Sharn sets are not designed for Charisma-based characters that also rely on Lightning/Cold/Negative. Adding +4 Charisma to the Hruit's Influence, Arcsteel Battlemage, and Dreadkeeper sets would be a starting point, and docent/light/medium armor options for any warlock-friendly sets that don't already have them would be much appreciated, as well.

  7. #247
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    They'll get a more authentic Warlock roleplay experience!
    While roleplay experiences are all fine and good, if you are gonna take power and choices away from something that people are already considering under-powered without giving it a bone in return, that's gonna not go over well. If a separate tree isn't feasible at this point, then it would be best to not lock out this tree until then, at the very least. Someone mentioned, making the Light themed bonuses something else if you are that pact, such as chaos or evil damage instead and make the heal amp negative energy heal amp. That way, thematically the tree would still work, while mechanically allowing that build concept to survive.

  8. #248
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Tradition shcmadition, we literally can't break the action system by allowing for more than one active toggle within the same action group. To make matters worse, DDO does not handle simultaneous genus overrides and allowing someone to be both an Undead and in Wild Shape or - even worse - another Shroud would seriously donk up their character.
    That's fair - thanks for that info. Can you at least help ease my ocd by swapping FoM and holy aura then please? I'd prefer conforming the spell lists entirely to the current spell conversion standard for warlock, but barring that, I'd greatly appreciate the spells at least being ordered by their respective spell level.

    Thanks for the response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  9. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I absolutely agree that locking out the capstone for a pact is not ideal, and I appreciate the feedback on that. That being said, I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

    Soooo basically you're saying that we can either be a tanking warlock with say a CON ES build or say a DC caster CHA build with Channel the abyss? Was / is this the true intent of channel the abyss from the initial concept of the ability? truth be told im seeing a bit of inequity in this now the more and more i mull over it. you have two major forms and you dont want to budge on changing them to both work together. so be it. However, by giving one pact a major form it seems that there would be more incentive to play that pact over other ones based on the major form (IF a player chooses to ofc). it seems that if you are going to have more major forms besides Celestial Spirit that it should be removed from the ES tree and be a form for Celestial pact and replaced with something of equal benefit and keeping the aspect of aura effecting mobs every 2 seconds. Then have a Major Form introduced for each individual pact.

    if i can be candid for a moment, i have played 15+ lives as a warlock on my main character and i have 4 alts that are various warlock builds. I play warlock for the flexibility of the class. it is by far my fav class in DDO so i dont like the idea of being shoehorned into a particular pact because it is the only one with a Major Form. i want to play a pact because its worth playing and adapting to my style of game play not just because i get undead benefits from that pact. right now as is abyss pact is not worth playing, to me. that's just me being real. no disrespect towards the devs or their efforts to introduce new warlock stuff.

    Following two items don't directly have to do with the pacts per sey but do impact warlock gameplay.

    i have been mentioning it a lot on the forums and in dev chat last week on lamannia. the bug of toggling on Blast shape: Cone disables auto attack if auto attack was previously enabled? would be nice to even just get a "oh yeah we'll take a look at that" from one of the devs. i've submitted a bug report on it too.

    also can you make the Demon Effigies in Lords of Dust breakable via eldritch blast in any form? currently they will not break unless hit with melee weapon very annoying to have to turn off all my eldricth stuff to just break something for the breakables bonus. i like have 72 breakables not 66 or whatever it is w/o the effigies.
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  10. #250
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Tradition shcmadition, we literally can't break the action system by allowing for more than one active toggle within the same action group. To make matters worse, DDO does not handle simultaneous genus overrides and allowing someone to be both an Undead and in Wild Shape or - even worse - another Shroud would seriously donk up their character.
    i know, a guildy on live took an animate dead while in undead form and had a dc issue resulting in their toon being perma zombie and than getting their undead form. they are still a bit cross about that.

  11. #251
    Community Member lain5246's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    While roleplay experiences are all fine and good, if you are gonna take power and choices away from something that people are already considering under-powered without giving it a bone in return, that's gonna not go over well. If a separate tree isn't feasible at this point, then it would be best to not lock out this tree until then, at the very least. Someone mentioned, making the Light themed bonuses something else if you are that pact, such as chaos or evil damage instead and make the heal amp negative energy heal amp. That way, thematically the tree would still work, while mechanically allowing that build concept to survive.
    you mean like divine disciple?

  12. #252
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lain5246 View Post
    you mean like divine disciple?
    Honestly, yeah, that works. Just do that, and make it require this pact, while the normal form is exclusive to it. We have tree abilities referencing class choices from light vs dark monks, so I don't see why this cannot be an option. Just make the lvl 18 core then give you benefits while in your abyssal shroud instead of a new form.

  13. #253
    Community Member Zeklijan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    /Snip

    I am actually more okay with just putting most of the bonuses as always-on in the capstone, and leaving one or two things tied to the Aura. Say, the BaB (because you can't actually use your attack bonus in other stances anyway, so no problems here) and the melee/ranged power (also can't be used in other stances so again no problems)? That way the capstone still upgrades the Aura a bit, most everyone else gets what they want otherwise, and there's still a choice of Abyssal or Celestial without needing to name the Abyssal Pact in any of the tree.
    This is absolutely the best solution in my eyes. Thanks alot for working with us on this Lynn.

    Are you still set on calling it the Abyss pact? I think a name related to undead would be more fitting, like pact of the Undying, or something along those lines.

  14. #254
    Community Member Xyfiel's Avatar
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    While it would make for better power options the Abyss pact does not need to get the benefits of celestial spirit. Enhancements being blocked by class specific feat choices already exist with Monk philosophy. Changing the bonuses in core 5 and 6 to better match with each of aura and form makes sense.

    Another option that would fix this issue but create others is to move Spirit to tier V. I suggest the following:

    Celestial Spirit moves to tier V as : Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage.

    Core V becomes
    Beacon : While your Eldritch Aura is active, you gain +10 Healing Amplification. In addition, you and nearby allies get a +10 Determination bonus to Healing Amplification. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.

    Core VI becomes:

    Ultimate Enlightenment : +2 CON, +2 CHA, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Powerful, and full Base Attack Bonus. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, and +20 Light Spell Power.

    This does create an issue with people using capstone and tier V's from the other trees.



    Another issue I came across with my many hours working on Abyss builds is gearing. No matter if you pick base force or utterdark for evil damage, there is no way to get great force/light power and crit while also getting negative. Both insightful radiance and nullification is on Sharn orbs. Nocturne is a staff. The new force item is an orb. Also, Dreadkeeper is needed for profane negative amp and set bonus but doesn't come with artifact bonus to Charisma. Other profane negative amp options aren't good(festering and silverthread are both belts, curse is orb). On top of this you have to pick Celestial scion for Spell crit damage and Hit points or Shadowfell for Necro DC's. No matter if you want to make a damage dealer, a tank, a nuker, or a DC caster the gear isn't equal to other Warlock options or other Classes.

    Negative damage is going to be the worst pact damage by far. Deathward prevalence and undead push it past fire.

    All this adds up to Abyss pact must be the most powerful pact compared to the others to overcome all the shortcomings it has from the start. Arguably the coolest of pacts by adding in a non Wizard way to be undead but the weakest.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeklijan View Post
    This is absolutely the best solution in my eyes. Thanks alot for working with us on this Lynn.

    Are you still set on calling it the Abyss pact? I think a name related to undead would be more fitting, like pact of the Undying, or something along those lines.
    No problemo, my goal here was to make everyone happy, seems like we all got there eventually

    Names and such are set in stone for a variety of reasons I can't get into, apologies.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  16. #256
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    3d6 light damage is a big chunk also. Remember that's your primary damage type, it applies to both regular aura (or other shape) and burst/blast. And it sales with 130% light damage. Knockdown immunity is also really nice on a non str/dex close range build. Yeah, it doesn't work on everything it probably should, but it works on a lot dangerous CC that you otherwise have limited defense against.

    I'm happy that abyssal isn't going to be totally non-functional with the top cores, but this is still a hit. Those cores are about a lot more than just +20% HP.
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  17. #257
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I admit that I have not looked too closely at al of this, and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut,
    But.....

    When I first saw this, I was surprised.

    You are trying to make a Warlock Option that combines Warlock and Pale Master.

    Looks extremely over powered to me.

    Then.. when it seems that someone points this out, we spend countless hours trying to make it not overpowered by basically nerfing Enlightened Spirit.

    Justifying and trying to fix a bad idea, by messing up something that is very enjoyable and working just fine IMO.


    Ok, maybe I am wrong.
    Maybe I am not looking closely enough to see how this is actually going to work.

    But I hope, that you guys will take a long hard look at what you are doing.
    Both with this new build idea.
    And how you might be hurting old builds.

    Just so someone can combine two separate powerful builds that already exist.

    If you can't make it work and not mess up old builds;
    I really hope you will scrap this idea.

    But like I said,
    Maybe I haven't looked close enough yet.
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  18. #258
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I admit that I have not looked too closely at al of this, and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut,
    But.....

    When I first saw this, I was surprised.

    You are trying to make a Warlock Option that combines Warlock and Pale Master.

    Looks extremely over powered to me.

    Then.. when it seems that someone points this out, we spend countless hours trying to make it not overpowered by basically nerfing Enlightened Spirit.

    Justifying and trying to fix a bad idea, by messing up something that is very enjoyable and working just fine IMO.


    Ok, maybe I am wrong.
    Maybe I am not looking closely enough to see how this is actually going to work.

    But I hope, that you guys will take a long hard look at what you are doing.
    Both with this new build idea.
    And how you might be hurting old builds.

    Just so someone can combine two separate powerful builds that already exist.

    If you can't make it work and not mess up old builds;
    I really hope you will scrap this idea.

    But like I said,
    Maybe I haven't looked close enough yet.
    I think you might be mistaken. Most are saying Abyssal pact is going to be one of the weaker pacts as is, as negative energy damage is one of the more commonly resisted damage types in the game, with every undead and construct being simply immune to it. Also, without a good way to heal, as death aura isn't enough on it's own, the undead form is more of a detriment than a boon. Pair that with a lack of gearing support for charisma based negative energy damage and we have a very weak pact as is. The fact that one of the class enhancement tree's main power sources is completely incompatible with it is more like the last nail in the coffin as opposed to a reason to nerf ES.

  19. #259
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    No problemo, my goal here was to make everyone happy, seems like we all got there eventually
    Please forgive my denseness but assuming you make the changes you last suggested, what will the Enlightened Spirit capstone look like?

    Will we lose the +20% HPs? The full BAB? etc.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Please forgive my denseness but assuming you make the changes you last suggested, what will the Enlightened Spirit capstone look like?

    Will we lose the +20% HPs? The full BAB? etc.
    Core 18: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to most knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.

    Capstone: +2 CON, +2 CHA, +20% Competence bonus to Maximum HP, +10 Universal Spellpower, +20 Light Spellpower. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, and +10 Ranged Power.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

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