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  1. #221
    Community Member Elsheran's Avatar
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    Since you are losing the 3d6 light damage from the loss of Celestial Spirit, can you maybe add 1 or 2 pact die to the Abyssal Shroud?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    2 votes for, 0 against, we're going for it :P

    Just dug into the scripting and it turns out the aura doesn't actually care if celestial spirit is toggled on to adjust the timing, only that you have it trained, so that tooltip has been wrong for a while, yikes.
    put me solidly in the against column.

    I don't like that a 20% hp boost is now tied to a specific eldritch blasting type. You've now excluded cone, chain and normal blasting from utilizing the capstone. If you arent going to use weapons and aura there is absolutely no reason to take this capstone.

    how about instead the capstone works with EITHER or Abyssal Shroud or celestial spirit.

    That seems way more inclusive and fun than telling me how to play my warlock.
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  3. #223
    Community Member Grimtooth333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    put me solidly in the against column.

    I don't like that a 20% hp boost is now tied to a specific eldritch blasting type. You've now excluded cone, chain and normal blasting from utilizing the capstone. If you arent going to use weapons and aura there is absolutely no reason to take this capstone.

    how about instead the capstone works with EITHER or Abyssal Shroud or celestial spirit.

    That seems way more inclusive and fun than telling me how to play my warlock.
    I also agree with this request, and hope it is possible to make the capstone work with either Shroud or Spirit to make everyone happy here.
    Khyber

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    put me solidly in the against column.

    I don't like that a 20% hp boost is now tied to a specific eldritch blasting type. You've now excluded cone, chain and normal blasting from utilizing the capstone.
    The rest of the tree is pretty solidly all about the Aura, it actually seems pretty weird that such an obviously up-close-and-personal suite of bonuses isn't firmly and clearly linked to the up-close-and-personal shape stance. It seems bad that someone not using the aura can feel compelled to put 41 points into a tree about the aura - that's a lot of wasted AP to get to an overtuned capstone.
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  5. #225
    Community Member M.ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    ...
    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
    Can you instead make it: "While any Eldritch Blast Stance is enabled..." otherwise you lock out a big part of the benefits while using other stance types. What is the thought process on requiring it to have the "...enabled" trigger? Just make it a static benefit.

    Cheers,
    Markham

    Edit: As you said, people are not going to put 41 points into the tree so they can use a stance other than the Aura, but losing the benefits of the Capstone when the situation warrants a different stance is harsh.
    Last edited by M.ham; 05-26-2020 at 12:20 PM.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The rest of the tree is pretty solidly all about the Aura, it actually seems pretty weird that such an obviously up-close-and-personal suite of bonuses isn't firmly and clearly linked to the up-close-and-personal shape stance. I can't imagine someone not using the aura putting 41 points into a tree about the aura - and even if they did, wow, I don't want that much AP wasted just because the capstone has that much juice.
    theres actually a lot of stuff that doesnt care if you are in aura or not. I count only 6 of the abilities that only do something with the aura

    this is literally how i build my warlock. This tree is more than just about the aura. Its about adding some defense with offense. Do i lose some stuff by not being in aura? sure. I lose +3 ac, +15 hps, 13 prr, 13 mrr by virtue of what action points i spend here.

    but heres what i get in return: displacement, a nice temp hp clicky, medium armor proficiency, a permanent shield effect, 3d4+3d6 light damage (that scales) to my blasts, 30 light power, 12 universal power, all in one resist energy spell, immunity to fear, immune to a bunch of knockdowns. oh, and the capstone.

    saying this tree is all about the aura is like saying tainted scholar is about confusion or soul eater is about soul eater/consume. Are they major facets of the tree? yes, but I dont lose ANYTHING in those trees by being in one stance or the other.

    Enlightened spirit does a good job of having incentive to be in Aura but ALSO allowing great use from other blasting forms. And at the end of the day, blasting forms makes a lot of difference for me when it comes to how the class plays and feels.

    By tying the capstone to specific blasting form (and this would again be the only one) you are in many ways taking my choice out of the equation. Who cares if heavily investing in this tree and using cone is less optimal? it's more fun for me and it matches my playstyle better.

    I'm not exaggerating: I would probably stop playing warlocks with this change.
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  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.ham View Post
    Edit: As you said, people are not going to put 41 points into the tree so they can use a stance other than the Aura, but losing the benefits of the Capstone when the situation warrants a different stance is harsh.
    I do. people do. lets not make assumptions about how people play their characters, or worse, tell them they are doing it wrong.
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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.ham View Post
    Can you instead make it: "While any Eldritch Blast Stance is enabled..." otherwise you lock out a big part of the benefits while using other stance types. What is the thought process on requiring it to have the "...enabled" trigger? Just make it a static benefit.

    Cheers,
    Markham

    Edit: As you said, people are not going to put 41 points into the tree so they can use a stance other than the Aura, but losing the benefits of the Capstone when the situation warrants a different stance is harsh.
    I want to keep some measure of restriction - the original capstone locked out Major Forms - but maybe you're right and some parts of this could just be a part of the capstone. Hmmm.
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  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I absolutely agree that locking out the capstone for a pact is not ideal, and I appreciate the feedback on that. That being said, I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
    Thanks for considering the feedback that has been given. This seems like it would probably be the best solution to balance theme and function. I'd still like to see the ES aura heal undead PCs, but that isn't a deal-breaker for me to not play the Abyssal pact.
    Last edited by carsonfball; 05-26-2020 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #230
    Community Member M.ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I want to keep some measure of restriction - the original capstone locked out Major Forms - but maybe you're right and some parts of this could just be a part of the capstone. Hmmm.
    IMHO the restriction, as with all Capstones, is requiring a Pure build and the point investment. The original Capstone did not lock out Major Forms, it was tied to activation of the 5th Core ability which did lock out the Major Forms. Keep the 5th Core as is, which locks out the other Major Forms, but disconnect the Capstone from the 5th Core, or as mentioned, connect it to having any Blast Stance enabled.

    Cheers,
    M.
    Last edited by M.ham; 05-26-2020 at 01:05 PM.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    the original capstone locked out Major Forms.
    Why is that not still acceptable?

    Okay it doesnt work with the new Abyssal form, but if you could make the capstone work with this newform AND the current one isnt that problem solved?

    Whichever way you go, please dont make it more restrictive. tying capstones into very specific styles of play is always something im going to push back hard on. I'll give you being in a form, but telling me which warlock aura to use is a deal breaker. That's like telling my fighter to use a warhammer to use the kensai capstone.

    And I'm also going to push back on Enlightened Spirit being all about the aura. Its the focus, sure, but it is so much more than "the aura tree." Just like Nature's warrior and Nature's protector are so much more than "the wolf and bear trees"
    Last edited by pjstechie; 05-26-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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  12. #232
    Community Member Zeklijan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I absolutely agree that locking out the capstone for a pact is not ideal, and I appreciate the feedback on that. That being said, I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

    Much better than the last solution, though I think it could be further refined. How about giving a passive bonus that is always active instead?

    The reasoning behind this is there was no drawbacks to using celestial spirit. So anyone who had no other major forms would always have that one activated. The problem at hand is that now Abyss pact will have to choose between two major forms, and we want to have the capstone eitherway. I believe there would be little difference to making it a complete passive ability. I honestly can say I have played different blasting stances whilst being fully invested in this enhancement tree, so I think this solution would likely fit better.


    If a passive doesn't fit the mold you intended for the class, then add both major forms to the trigger of the capstone?
    If Shroud Form or Celestial Spirit is active,
    Then grant the bonuses of the capstone.

    Edit: It's been suggested by other people as well whilst I was writing my post. lol.

    I also still really feel strongly about changing the naming convention for this pact - Abyss and Undead have little in common in DnD lore.
    Last edited by Zeklijan; 05-26-2020 at 01:08 PM.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeklijan View Post
    Much better than the last solution, though I think it could be further refined. How about giving a passive bonus that is always active instead?

    The reasoning behind this is there was no drawbacks to using celestial spirit. So anyone who had no other major forms would always have that one activated. The problem at hand is that now Abyss pact will have to choose between two major forms, and we want to have the capstone eitherway. I believe there would be little difference to making it a complete passive ability. I honestly can say I have played different blasting stances whilst being fully invested in this enhancement tree, so I think this solution would likely fit better.


    If a passive doesn't fit the mold you intended for the class, then add both major forms to the trigger of the capstone?
    If Shroud Form or Celestial Spirit is active,
    Then grant the bonuses of the capstone.
    The reason I don't want to do that is twofold:

    One is no other Warlock enhancement calls out a pact by name.

    Two is that out of all of the pacts, the one that's least thematic and most clashing with a tree about becoming a celestial is a pact about becoming an Undead. Part of me wants to just lock Abyssal Pact warlocks out of the entire tree, but I imagine that would be a little unpopular, to put it mildly :P

    I am actually more okay with just putting most of the bonuses as always-on in the capstone, and leaving one or two things tied to the Aura. Say, the BaB (because you can't actually use your attack bonus in other stances anyway, so no problems here) and the melee/ranged power (also can't be used in other stances so again no problems)? That way the capstone still upgrades the Aura a bit, most everyone else gets what they want otherwise, and there's still a choice of Abyssal or Celestial without needing to name the Abyssal Pact in any of the tree.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 05-26-2020 at 01:21 PM.
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  14. #234
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    Why is that not still acceptable?

    Okay it doesnt work with the new Abyssal form, but if you could make the capstone work with this newform AND the current one isnt that problem solved?

    Whichever way you go, please dont make it more restrictive. tying capstones into very specific styles of play is always something im going to push back hard on. I'll give you being in a form, but telling me which warlock aura to use is a deal breaker. That's like telling my fighter to use a warhammer.

    And I'm also going to push back on Enlightened Spirit being all about the aura. Its the focus, sure, but it is so much more than "the aura tree." Just like Nature's warrior and Nature's protector are so much more than "the wolf and bear trees"
    Honestly, the more I look at it, the more right you become. Even weapon specific class trees like thief acrobat do not have their capstone tied to that weapon. Heck, even the universal trees do not require the associated weapon (VKF or INQ) to gain most of the benefit of their capstones. Even comparing it to other class trees which grant tree defining toggles(SaD and StD) those capstone have a very small portion dedicated to those toggles. Heck not even EK's capstone is that tied to the class toggle.

  15. #235
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Part of me wants to just lock Abyssal Pact warlocks out of the entire tree.
    Do it! (are we still voting?)

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The reason I don't want to do that is twofold:

    One is no other Warlock enhancement calls out a pact by name.

    Two is that out of all of the pacts, the one that's least thematic and most clashing with a tree about becoming a celestial is a pact about becoming an Undead. Part of me wants to just lock Abyssal Pact warlocks out of the entire tree, but I imagine that would be a little unpopular, to put it mildly :P

    I am actually more okay with just putting most of the bonuses as always-on in the capstone, and leaving one or two things tied to the Aura. Say, the BaB (because you can't actually use your attack bonus in other stances anyway, so no problems here) and the melee/ranged power (also can't be used in other stances so again no problems)? That way the capstone still upgrades the Celestial Spirit form a bit, most everyone else gets what they want otherwise, and there's still a choice of Abyssal or Celestial without needing to name the Abyssal Pact in any of the tree.
    I have been running a warlock near exclusively since I came back from a 5 year break. I will be honest, I do not know why they do not have an Enhancement Tree locked into the pack somewhat like you can do for Savant Lines in Sorcerer. Would it take a load of work, likely but it may be the better item down the road.

    This is a way out there Idea.

    Onto more reasonable:
    Can you make the cap stone give a varied level of % HP based on
    1. Smallest, just has cap stone (say 5-10%)
    2. Has Aura on (raise 10-15%)
    3. Has Celestial Spirit active (full 20%)
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  17. #237
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    Do it! (are we still voting?)
    I mean, if that does happen, what will they get in return? Will that pact just have 2 enhancement trees, cause that will suck if that's the case. If they get a unique tree to replace it, the other pacts will want one. I mean, if they want to completely overhaul the warlock pact system, that would be cool, but at this point that seems unreasonable.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The reason I don't want to do that is twofold:

    One is no other Warlock enhancement calls out a pact by name.

    Two is that out of all of the pacts, the one that's least thematic and most clashing with a tree about becoming a celestial is a pact about becoming an Undead. Part of me wants to just lock Abyssal Pact warlocks out of the entire tree, but I imagine that would be a little unpopular, to put it mildly :P
    Seems a little artificial to me to not want a warlock enhancement tree to call out a pact by name. I think it makes more sense for a warlock tree to call out a specific pact ability than it does for a class enhancement tree to call out a racial ability (because of a conflict).

    besides, think of the fun you could have making Enlightened Spirit make you more abyssal? ooo maybe copy Enlightened Spirit, lock it out for Abyssal, and make a 4th tree for only Abyssal that is more or less the same, but is specific to making you more demonic than celestial. Call it Demonic Possession or something.

    Everyone wins except Lynnabel who gets more work to do. I think this is a sacrifice everyone is willing to make =P

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I am actually more okay with just putting most of the bonuses as always-on in the capstone, and leaving one or two things tied to the Aura. Say, the BaB (because you can't actually use your attack bonus in other stances anyway, so no problems here) and the melee/ranged power (also can't be used in other stances so again no problems)? That way the capstone still upgrades the Celestial Spirit form a bit, most everyone else gets what they want otherwise, and there's still a choice of Abyssal or Celestial without needing to name the Abyssal Pact in any of the tree.
    I'm in
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  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    Seems a little artificial to me to not want a warlock enhancement tree to call out a pact by name.
    Honestly, it's just not a great idea to call out anything by name as far as exceptions go. Upgrading is one thing, but "hey this also doesn't work with this other specific ability named THIS" is another. I feel like the times we do need to do that, we're pretty boxed into a corner.
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  20. #240
    Community Member Phoenicis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Part of me wants to just lock Abyssal Pact warlocks out of the entire tree, but I imagine that would be a little unpopular, to put it mildly :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    Do it! (are we still voting?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stravix View Post
    I mean, if that does happen, what will they get in return? Will that pact just have 2 enhancement trees, cause that will suck if that's the case. If they get a unique tree to replace it, the other pacts will want one. I mean, if they want to completely overhaul the warlock pact system, that would be cool, but at this point that seems unreasonable.
    Being in Abyssal pact switches everything 'light' related in ES to dark?

    edit to add: Or maybe locks out ES but opens a 'Corrupted Spirit' tree (which just happens to mirror ES pretty hard)
    Last edited by Phoenicis; 05-26-2020 at 01:32 PM.

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