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  1. #201
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    May I suggest to be more loose for the celestial and abyssal and make them a little more "powerful" with some suggestions we gave and let the players use them and have fun and see if they are unbalanced and then nerf them if too much strong afterward.
    Players hate it when we do that.
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  2. #202
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    For celestial warlock, just a small change, can we have prayer before magic circle? I am one that likes the prayer spell:
    Spell Level 3: Prayer
    Spell Leve 4: Magic Circle against Evil

    and if you want to go more far, you could lower all spells by one level and add a new spell somewhere in middle:
    Spell level 1: Soundburst
    Spell level 2: Prayer
    Spell level 3: Magic Circle Against Evil
    Spell level 4: (New spell)
    Spell level 5: Holy Aura
    Spell level 6: Freedom of Movement

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Yes, the Abyssal Shroud will continue to be an Alternate Form, and will therefore remain exclusive to other Alternate Forms.
    I don't even like enlightened spirit that much as a tree but this is just awful from a design perspective.

    Making a core pact ability conflict with the capstone of a classes enhancement tree is just mindbogglingly bad. Like I really appreciate that you're making new pacts and improving them based on feedback (removing undead mob healing, giving the shroud ghetto lich stats) but this restriction is the number 1 issue i have with abyss pact.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavoredSoul View Post
    Making a core pact ability conflict with the capstone of a classes enhancement tree is just mindbogglingly bad.
    I would have to agree. As players come to the realization that they've chosen a broken build for months/years to come, there will be complaints on the forums and persistent bug reports.

    This design decision will inevitably haunt the team, and really needs to be re-evaluated.

  5. #205
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Players hate it when we do that.
    Truth. Its a difficult balance between lame and OP. Thanks for making an effort.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
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  6. #206
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    Spell level 5: Holy Aura
    Was Holy Aura ever fixed so that it would work as a beneficial spell despite player SR? If not, its pretty bad considering its AC and saves bonus never has stacked with equipment. Extremely short duration. Immunity to Enchantment and Charm? That's it, and only applies if no SR, which would also prevent most same as FOM. And the blind portion is on a Fort save, the strongest save of most mobs. Idk. It just seems so incredibly lackluster. I haven't used this on my cleric in years.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
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  7. #207
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Was Holy Aura ever fixed so that it would work as a beneficial spell despite player SR? If not, its pretty bad considering its AC and saves bonus never has stacked with equipment. Extremely short duration. Immunity to Enchantment and Charm? That's it, and only applies if no SR, which would also prevent most same as FOM. And the blind portion is on a Fort save, the strongest save of most mobs. Idk. It just seems so incredibly lackluster. I haven't used this on my cleric in years.
    I don't know if they fixed it, I will try it on the celestial warlock and open a bug report if the bug is still there. But for a level 8 spells, it should really provide stacking sacred bonuses, I hope they do it, also to make it a useful cleric spell.

  8. #208
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Players hate it when we do that.
    Yes players dont like a nerf but the point is you should not be too much afraid to do something because you actually have the option to nerf it if it proofs as overpowered.
    Of course you should not introduce something if you actually know you will nerf it in the future and the statement was most likely not meant in this way.

    Two things who bother me around the new warlock packs...
    For me, it is quite clear that a celestial pact should be themed around radiant damage, healing, and protection if you want a warlock pact around electrical damage then you should introduce another pact.
    And yes I know that it would be currently much easier to equip such a warlock but if you really think this is such a big issue there certainly other ways to fix this issue than giving a Celestial warlock a kind of pact damage that clearly doesn't fit the celestial theme.
    Like Utterdark Blast could simply do nothing for a Celestial warlock or is could do something different.

    And the big contradiction between the ES enhancement tree and the Abyss pact is also obviously bad.
    The new major undead form with "Channel the Abyss" dont even sound like a major form and is compared to the wizard undead forms just awful (even after the latest small buff).
    Maybe you could give it two toggles, one that gives you only negative healing but not the undead form and while this much weaker toggle is active you can still activate Celestial Spirit.
    And a second toggle that activates an undead form that is really worthwhile to use compared to wizard undead forms and the Celestial Spirit form.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Players hate it when we do that.
    Very much so!

    But I think the other worry is that, while you're more than willing to come back right after a patch and nerf something when it proves too OP, there's less faith that you'll be watching for things that need up-tuning too. You're far more likely to let something just be weak or broken for a year or two until you get around to giving it another pass.

    It might help restore faith if you made more of a verbal commitment to keep paying attention and tuning for a patch or two, down OR up - that way players arent as anxious to ask for everything right away, before we've really played the changes, thinking its the only chance they'll get.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Very much so!

    But I think the other worry is that, while you're more than willing to come back right after a patch and nerf something when it proves too OP, there's less faith that you'll be watching for things that need up-tuning too. You're far more likely to let something just be weak or broken for a year or two until you get around to giving it another pass.

    It might help restore faith if you made more of a verbal commitment to keep paying attention and tuning for a patch or two, down OR up - that way players arent as anxious to ask for everything right away, before we've really played the changes, thinking its the only chance they'll get.
    We tune stuff up all the time - this is no different nothing is set in stone in ddo.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  11. #211
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Another suggestion for the Celestial, maybe the level 15 ability could have a toggle to transform the pact damage from electric to good, makes it more strong in epic and not much change in most of heroic. (And maybe the toggle can give a -50 max HP or something for more balance).

  12. #212
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWCarter View Post
    I would have to agree. As players come to the realization that they've chosen a broken build for months/years to come, there will be complaints on the forums and persistent bug reports.

    This design decision will inevitably haunt the team, and really needs to be re-evaluated.
    Personally, after looking at the details the new Abyss toggle should be a greater form, the Celestial Spirit toggle shouldn't be.......

  13. #213
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    I threw together a few ideas on how to change up the Abyss Pact’s special abilities, particularly for the undead major form.

    Idea 1: This is the non-form/shroud option. Instead, this would work similarly to Construct Essence and Improved Construct Essence.
    • Warlock Level 6 Special Ability - Unhallowed Flesh: You gain +50% critical resistance, are able to be healed by negative energy, and received 50% negative energy healing. You take double damage from Light effects.
    • Warlock Level 15 Special Ability - Channel the Abyss: Your unholy apotheosis evolves: Granting you 100% critical resistance and 100% negative energy healing. However, as a penalty, you receive 75% healing from positive energy effects. You are now considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. This is not a major form.


    Idea 2: This option takes feedback from other players to give the first form at level 6 and an improved form at level 15, similar to Palemaster, while improving the shroud slightly to better round out the lack of supporting enhancements.
    • Warlock Level 6 Special Ability - Unhallowed Flesh: Shroud yourself in the Abyss, which will grant you unholy power at a cost. You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by Negative Energy, take 50% healing from Positive Energy, and take double damage from Light. You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. While in this form, you gain +2 charisma score, +20 negative energy amp, and 10% negative energy critical chance.
    • Warlock Level 15 Special Ability - Channel the Abyss: Shroud yourself in the Abyss, which will grant you unholy power at a cost. You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by Negative Energy, take 50% healing from Positive Energy, and take double damage from Light. You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. While in this form, you gain +4 charisma score, +30 negative energy amp, +15% negative energy critical chance, and +10% negative energy critical damage.


    Idea 3: This is the more crazy option with changes to make up for the fact the form is gained at level 15 and to give appropriate power in comparison to both Palemaster and Celestial Spirit/Enlightened Spirit (cores 18 and 20, respectively).
    • Warlock Level 6 Special Ability - Unhallowed Flesh: +5 PRR and +5 MRR and +1% profane HP bonus per warlock level.
    • Warlock Level 15 Special Ability - Channel the Abyss: Shroud yourself in the Abyss, which will grant you unholy power at a cost. You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by Negative Energy, take 50% healing from Positive Energy, and take double damage from Light. You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. While in this form, you gain +2 charisma score, +20 negative energy amp, +2 pact damage die, and your negative energy spell damage strip immunity and dispels effects such as Deathward/Deathblock. If using the Eldritch Aura blast shape, you are capable of healing yourself with pact damage die.

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alttab View Post
    And maybe the toggle can give a -50 max HP or something for more balance.
    Im not sure i understand your reasoning on this? why would you want to reduce HP? im mean really if you wanted low hp in epic just go be a first life rogue with like 500 hp at level 25 or something lol. I'll carry your soul stone, promise. Joking aside i would like to know your thought process on this please.

    but for reals I play an alt first lifer tank-lock ES build with unbuffed 82 con at level 30 in fey pact. its over 2700 (almost 2800) unbuffed hp and with shining through and tensors im at over 3500 add in stanch and I'm over 5k hp. I don't want less hp I want moar!
    Amastris Queen of Thay | Epic and Class completionist with 15+ racial lives as a warlock | - Main Character Grevok The Maniacal - Tanklock Alt Hackerson Von Slashington - Freshly TR'd ES Tanklock Alt

  15. #215
    Community Member Alttab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amastris View Post
    Im not sure i understand your reasoning on this? why would you want to reduce HP? im mean really if you wanted low hp in epic just go be a first life rogue with like 500 hp at level 25 or something lol. I'll carry your soul stone, promise. Joking aside i would like to know your thought process on this please.

    but for reals I play an alt first lifer tank-lock ES build with unbuffed 82 con at level 30 in fey pact. its over 2700 (almost 2800) unbuffed hp and with shining through and tensors im at over 3500 add in stanch and I'm over 5k hp. I don't want less hp I want moar!
    nice tank-lock !
    My reasoning is the trade-off between offense and defense. If the skill is too powerful, there should be some way to balance it, in my suggestion with less defense. But there could be other suggestions like double cooldown time for spells or losing the bonuses from the level 6 ability (-5PRR -1 saving throws). Something like that...

    Edit: And it would be only a toggle, so it gives choice.
    Last edited by Alttab; 05-25-2020 at 11:04 PM.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Friday night update:

    Abyssal Shroud now grants +2 Cha, +10 Negative healing amplification, +10 Negative spell power
    Is this the Channel the Abyss feat at level 15?. Just want to update my planner and its not obvious what this pertains to.
    Cannith Server: Maetrim - Once again complete
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  17. #217
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    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I absolutely agree that locking out the capstone for a pact is not ideal, and I appreciate the feedback on that. That being said, I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 05-26-2020 at 10:17 AM.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
    That works. Feather fall is easy enough to slot. Knockdown immunity doesn't work against half the things you'd want it to. The loss of the light damage isn't a deal-breaker. The only thing I'd actually miss from that change is the floaty stance, which is balanced out by losing those hideous brightly glowing eyes (which is a change I've been asking for since warlock came out). I also like how the capstone will now only give you the extra benefits if you're actually in melee range.

  19. #219
    Community Member Stravix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Thoughts on musing on this for a weekend:

    I absolutely agree that locking out the capstone for a pact is not ideal, and I appreciate the feedback on that. That being said, I would much rather de-synch the level 20 capstone from the 18th core in ES than not make both Major Forms not conflict (something that is both technically infeasible and also a terrible idea). What if Ultimate Enlightenment keyed off of the Aura stance instead of Celestial Spirit?

    In summary:

    Abyssal Shroud stays a Major Form.

    Celestial Spirit is now: Major Form Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, are immune to knockdown effects, and your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your aura now triggers every 2 seconds (does not need toggle active).

    Ultimate Enlightenment is now: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Eldritch Aura is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
    This sounds great! Thank you!

  20. #220
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    2 votes for, 0 against, we're going for it :P

    Just dug into the scripting and it turns out the aura doesn't actually care if celestial spirit is toggled on to adjust the timing, only that you have it trained, so that tooltip has been wrong for a while, yikes.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

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