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  1. #1
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    Default Vile Chemist / Assassin: Heartseekers and more

    Heartseeker Poison Stacking

    Here's something me and a buddy tested out today which I can confirm.
    He plays a melee Vile Chemist with Assassin splash, and we wondered if Assassin's t1 Heartseeker Poison attack stacked with the L2 Alchemist spell Lesser Heartseeker Imbue.

    They do! I was actually pretty surprised.

    Both debuff fortitude and do CON damage on a crit. We went to the Wayward Lobster PvP area and he hit me with 5 Heartseeker attacks from Assassin (-5 Fortitude), using Lesser Heartseeker Imbue (-1 Fortitude). Both debuff icons showed up when I examined my character, and my Fortitude dropped by 6.

    I did not check the two higher level Heartseeker imbues (level 4 and 6), but I'm optimistic they'll stack as well.

    The CON damage debuff was working, but I couldn't tell which attack was causing it. Maybe I need to look more closely at the combat log.

    Venomed Blades + Poison Coating

    As for using Assassin t2/Drow t4 Venomed Blades, creating vulnerability to poison using Vile Chemist's Poison Strike and Wave of Poison works very nicely as well. Granted, Venomed Blades scales off of melee power, and VC's Poisoned Coating scales off spell power, so that's a bit of a drawback. But the main point is I can confirm they stack (which I did not really doubt).

    So if you're playing a melee Vile Chemist, it's worth splashing a couple levels of Rogue to get those Assassin enhancements, especially if you're already doing a trapper splash.

    I've seen very little poison mitigation from mobs at low-to-mid reaper heroic (not tested in epic yet) once you hit them with Poison Strike and Wave. And all of that CON damage is icing on the poisoned cake.

    Named Poison Weapons

    If you go this route, be sure to grab Memories of the Unseen/Epic Memories of the Unseen, and maybe the Vulkoor's Cunning set from Red Fens. Note that I have only looked at those items that add poison damage, not those that increase Poison Spell Power via Nullification.

    For poison-dealing melee weapons there's Tiefling Assassin's Blade, Vulkoor's Edge, Tail of the Scorpion, Envenomed Blade, and Sacrificial Dagger.

    For ranged there's Noxious Fang, Nightshade Shooter, Doublecross Bow, and Slaver's Hand Crossbow. Plus there's the Quiver of Poison from Gianthold for more ranged poison damage.

    All of these have epic versions except for the Tiefling blade, and a couple level 4 ranged items. (Did I miss any?)
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  2. #2
    The Eternal Rapscallion Haphazarduk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocratesBastardSon View Post
    Heartseeker Poison Stacking

    Here's something me and a buddy tested out today which I can confirm.
    He plays a melee Vile Chemist with Assassin splash, and we wondered if Assassin's t1 Heartseeker Poison attack stacked with the L2 Alchemist spell Lesser Heartseeker Imbue.

    They do! I was actually pretty surprised.

    Both debuff fortitude and do CON damage on a crit. We went to the Wayward Lobster PvP area and he hit me with 5 Heartseeker attacks from Assassin (-5 Fortitude), using Lesser Heartseeker Imbue (-1 Fortitude). Both debuff icons showed up when I examined my character, and my Fortitude dropped by 6.

    I did not check the two higher level Heartseeker imbues (level 4 and 6), but I'm optimistic they'll stack as well.

    The CON damage debuff was working, but I couldn't tell which attack was causing it. Maybe I need to look more closely at the combat log.

    Venomed Blades + Poison Coating

    As for using Assassin t2/Drow t4 Venomed Blades, creating vulnerability to poison using Vile Chemist's Poison Strike and Wave of Poison works very nicely as well. Granted, Venomed Blades scales off of melee power, and VC's Poisoned Coating scales off spell power, so that's a bit of a drawback. But the main point is I can confirm they stack (which I did not really doubt).

    So if you're playing a melee Vile Chemist, it's worth splashing a couple levels of Rogue to get those Assassin enhancements, especially if you're already doing a trapper splash.
    Interesting. That means, with t3 Toxic Augmentation, you should be able to get to -12 Fort Saves. Could be handy on bosses.

    I'd love to splash a rogue level on my Vile Chemist build but already have ranger and monk levels. It's got me thinking though (as ever) about variations.

    Hap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazarduk View Post
    Interesting. That means, with t3 Toxic Augmentation, you should be able to get to -12 Fort Saves. Could be handy on bosses.

    I'd love to splash a rogue level on my Vile Chemist build but already have ranger and monk levels. It's got me thinking though (as ever) about variations.

    Hap
    I believe that's correct, but I won't be able to test Toxic Aug until next level.

    Since you mention monk, the way I'm benefiting from the Fortitude debuffs is I'm playing a Ninja/Vile Chemist. IIUC, the DCs for Ninjutsu and finishing moves are based off Fortitude saves, so all of those VC debuffs make up for the loss of levels due to multiclassing.

    But of course, all of that works only for melee, not ranged.
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    Community Member lymphy12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocratesBastardSon View Post
    Heartseeker Poison Stacking
    Melee alchemist trapper sounds awesome! Would you mind posting his build, id love to play that past 20s

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    Quote Originally Posted by lymphy12 View Post
    Melee alchemist trapper sounds awesome! Would you mind posting his build, id love to play that past 20s
    At some point I'll probably put together a detailed description, but I wanted to finish play-testing it. I don't have a lot of time to play, but we're up to level 15, running R2-4 depending on quest, and having a blast. It's a lot of fun, feels strong, and a different play style for me. We're going to go through epic, GoF for the Sting of the Alchemist (Ninja/Vice Chemist) and Fury for the trapper, which I call the Vile Ravager. But again, I want to play with Vile Ravager, and Dreadnought and even Fatesinger (good Melee Power and Spell Power) are possible choices for Destiny.

    The broad outline of the build is in this thread: Alchemist reactions: Is there a good semitank build in here somewhere?

    To add one caution, the Vile Ravager is designed to work in conjunction with the other build, the Ninja/Vile Chemist. It's probably fine as is, but I'd want to take a look at it again to make sure.

    Another change that we discovered is it works fine as an INT build so long as you get to 17 STR using tomes. +3 STR tome will do the trick. Lacking that, stick with the STR build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazarduk View Post
    Interesting. That means, with t3 Toxic Augmentation, you should be able to get to -12 Fort Saves. Could be handy on bosses.

    I'd love to splash a rogue level on my Vile Chemist build but already have ranger and monk levels. It's got me thinking though (as ever) about variations.

    Hap
    Ok, got around to testing your question, and yes, they all appear to stack, just not to -12.

    One correction: the ddowiki and in-game tooltip says that for Toxic Augmentation, "This effect stacks up to 4 times", not 6. So I should be seeing a total debuff of -10 to Fortitude, but the best was -8.

    To review, I say -10 Fortitude is what I should be seeing because there's -5 from Assassin Heartseeker, -1 Lesser Heartseeker Imbue, and -4 from TA. I already confirmed Heartseeker and Lesser Heartseeker Imbue stack, so I don't know why I'm only seeing half of what TA should be doing.

    (I just realized I did not test to see if TA by itself was imposing its promised -4 Fortitude, but whatever the reason, it only seems to add -2 Fortitude debuff when paired with the two Heartseeker attacks.)

    Keep in mind, however, that when the CON damage from the Heartseekers kicks in on crits, Fortitude drops too. This build really benefits from an expanded crit range to make that happen, so the Barbarian/Trapper/Alch, the "Vile Ravager", build uses Falchion (Tail of the Scorpion rocks). With just a few swings and some CON damage Fortitude save dropped another -4 for a total of -12 with just a few swings of the Falchion. Of course, the CON debuff is based on crits + whatever CON damage the dice impose, so YMMV, but the possibilities are obvious.

    (I would LOVE to see some decent Kukris rolled out; that weapon would be great for TWF or SWF with this build.)

    And by the way, the Vile Ravager uses Cruel Cut for 3d6 CON damage every 30 sec. In other words, seeing double digit CON damage with another 6-8 Fortitude debuff (Cruel Cut + Heartseeker stuff) in addition to the -8 on a target should be fairly common every 30 sec.

    And none of this is resisted by bosses, at least according to ddowiki.

    I have to say, it is quite satisfying wading into a group of mobs and in short order all of them having poison symbols floating above their heads. I'd love to have a spell caster tossing Poison spells into this toxic stew. Good times.

    Questions I'd still like to answer:
    • confirm Toxic Augmentation is giving the full -4 Fortitude debuff when used by itself
    • can mobs with protections like Death Block resist the CON damage from what are magical, not natural poison, attacks?
    • does Sunder/Imp Sunder stack?
    • does Body Blow from t2 Frenzied Berserker stack?
    • does regular and Greater Heartseeker Poison Imbue also stack with Assassin's Heartseeker attack?
    Last edited by SocratesBastardSon; 05-26-2020 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Added new questions.
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  7. #7
    Community Member lymphy12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocratesBastardSon View Post
    I have to say, it is quite satisfying wading into a group of mobs and in short order all of them having poison symbols floating above their heads.
    I had a simple int based 18 alchemist /2 rogue dagger(s) Vistani thing in mind, but reading this made THF way more appealing.

    Would Kensai or Swashbuckler be a viable option vs barb clickies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lymphy12 View Post
    I had a simple int based 18 alchemist /2 rogue dagger(s) Vistani thing in mind, but reading this made THF way more appealing.

    Would Kensai or Swashbuckler be a viable option vs barb clickies?
    I went TWF for the monk (Ninja/Vile Chemist) because monk finishing moves proc off both hands.

    For the Ravager/VC/Assassin we were aiming for lots of AOE damage via cleaves (Cleave/GCleave and possibly Supreme Cleave), Poison Strike and Wave of Poison to soften everything up.

    Both of them do well against bosses with lots of boss debuffs like Cruel Cut, Cracking Attack/Body Blow from FB, plus we get the Ninja's Inevitable Dominion finishing moves, Ninjutsu and Ninja Poison.

    The reason I selected Barb instead of any other melee was pretty straightforward: I was looking for poison, CON damage and Fortitude debuff (don't forget Aura of Fear) synergies, all of which Ravager and Berserker have. Note that the various Heartseeker attacks (both Assassin and Alchemist) rely on critical hits to proc CON damage. What has the best critical hit range in the game? One of the best is a Ravager with Critical Rage swinging a Falchion. (Hmm, I wonder if Heartseekers proc off Strikethrough?)

    As you can see, I had some very specific goals with the build, rather than just generally wanting to try THF with Vile Chemist.

    I have wondered about a Vile Chemist/Vistani dagger user too, and doing SWF SB could be interesting (hello Scoundrel?). But that's so different than what I'm doing here I'd hesitate to comment without giving it some thought.
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  9. #9
    Community Member lymphy12's Avatar
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    Qstaff random loot changes could this work?

    Venomed Blades + Poison Coating + Greater Heartseeker Poison Imbue

    Int everything
    18(16) alchemist 2(3) rogue (1)

    Thief-Acrobat enhancements: Sly Flourish
    Vile Chemist enhancements: All Tier Fives poison goodness
    Assassin enhancements: Venomed Blades, Shiv

    Goldskin Potion and alchemist spells for defense

    I've tested on 15 iconics and didn't get too far w/o gear. still if i ever get to 20 im TRing to this.

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    I've seen a few INT-based TA/Vile Chemist QStaff fighters out there. The most popular staff is Elemental Bloom from ToEE. It should work fine, although prior to Alchemist stick builds were widely panned as sub-par. Maybe Vile Chemist will turn the corner on that?

    Oh and don't forget Assassin Heartseeker poison attack, it stacks with Heartseeker imbues.
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  11. #11
    The Eternal Rapscallion Haphazarduk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SocratesBastardSon View Post
    Ok, got around to testing your question, and yes, they all appear to stack, just not to -12.

    One correction: the ddowiki and in-game tooltip says that for Toxic Augmentation, "This effect stacks up to 4 times", not 6. So I should be seeing a total debuff of -10 to Fortitude, but the best was -8.

    To review, I say -10 Fortitude is what I should be seeing because there's -5 from Assassin Heartseeker, -1 Lesser Heartseeker Imbue, and -4 from TA. I already confirmed Heartseeker and Lesser Heartseeker Imbue stack, so I don't know why I'm only seeing half of what TA should be doing.
    Ah, the reason I said -12 was I was assuming the higher level (6th) Heartseeker which stacks 3 times. Still had forgotten about the actual con damage so that should all add up nicely.

    My build is a Alch12/Ranger5/Monk3 using t5 Dance of Death for the strikethrough and Ninja Poison procs for building extra poison vulnerability.

    Hap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazarduk View Post
    Ah, the reason I said -12 was I was assuming the higher level (6th) Heartseeker which stacks 3 times. Still had forgotten about the actual con damage so that should all add up nicely.

    My build is a Alch12/Ranger5/Monk3 using t5 Dance of Death for the strikethrough and Ninja Poison procs for building extra poison vulnerability.
    That makes sense. Like all things DDO, I won't believe until I actually test it, so I'll add that to my list.

    But at a minimum, my research here shows that anyone playing a melee Vile Chemist with trapper splash should be picking up the Heartseeker Poison strike, with Venomed Blades and Shiv a close second.
    Last edited by SocratesBastardSon; 05-26-2020 at 11:33 AM.
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